B...there are differing views on digging holes/drains. Eventually, the roots will need to grunt through the clay. They can do it. Adding gypsum (inexpensive 50 lb bags are available) to the soil is said to help break up clay. The local farmers use it here. Make sure you water deep/long...so you get water through the root zone. Essentially, you are creating a pot within the ground...until roots break through. I never buy limiting rootstocks (dwarf) because the vitality is needed.

From personal experience of planting in clayed soil I suggest that you plant at least in partial raised bed method.

I would definitely NOT dig a hole, regardless of size, and put the tree into it. A larger hole only means that you will have a larger bathtub around your tree.

In my case I laid down a 12 inch deep row of soil on top of the naked ground (sandy soil, compost, well composted shredded woods chips) and then tilled it into the clay soil about a foot deep and three wide. I tamped it down pretty well and added another 8 inches of soil on top ( by the time I tamped it down it was way less than 8 inches deep) . I then planted the trees so that they were roughly one half in the bottom clay/soil mix and one half in the top mix.

Very good growth and development. Rented the walk behind tiller from Home Depot it was cheap for the day.

Various weed control methods are up to you. I use wood chips.
Mike

An apple tree in clay based soil is not a problem. An apple tree in soil that does not drain IS a problem. Do a percolation test and if your soil fails, plant your trees on top of the soil and build a mound over the roots, this will guarantee drainage while the roots get established. Doing an orchard I would build a berm in a row to plant all your trees. If you heavily mulch every year, the clay over time will yield to a much improved structure. Al

I agree with calistoga.

My response assumed that you had, like me, heavily clayed, non or very poorly draining ground to plant in.

Mike

Yes, another name for a hole dug out of damp or wet soil and filled with coarse material is a sump. Put better soil on top, plant in that without mixing the two layers together or install drainage lines - if there is a place to drain the water into.

And the soil is that wet.

If it isn't that wet, then just plant the trees in the existing soil.

Without amending planting hole back-fill.

Which should never be done - amended planting holes reduce response of transplants rather then increase it.

Good responses guys. Sounds like the mound idea is the way to go. I like the idea of rototilling in some compost for a base then mounding up.

And am I correct to say I should mulch around the tree but not fertilize? And just a thought, if over time the clay becomes good soil from mulchingwouldn't that overtime create a bathtub effect?

Don't worry...in twenty years the trees will have roots at least as wide as the canopy.

Compost under tree not a good idea.

The gypsum is a good idea for improving clay and it also provides needed calcium for apples. Sand also helps break up clay and neither will contribute to bathtubbing.
Like fireduck says the roots are going to have to live in the clay anyway and you cannot improve all the soil. It will give them a good start though.

Someone mentioned berming and if you had access to the equipment this would be the way to go imo.

Fruit trees I think generally do fine in clay so long as the drainage is there. Apples definitely do.

Gypsum is only helpful for sodic clays, which may be what you have. If so, then your clay may be a problem- even if you manage drainage. Gypsum can be a detrimental ingredient if there isn't a lot of salt in your soil.

You need to know more about your soil before you can evaluate the best strategy, although berms are always helpful in heavy soils.

I agree with a lot of the advice here but really think you need to have your soil looked at via your cooperative extension. Advice I don't agree with is creating a planting hole with a coarser texture than the soil around it. This just doesn't work well. You can have a layer of coarser soil on top of the clay, however.

If a wide range of other trees are generally doing well in your soil there is probably no major problem in growing fruit trees in it.

Here is a link that might be useful: gypsum for clay

I live 10 miles from Western Washington. I agree with most of what has been said here. Plant up for drainage. Don't put wood chips in the hole-they will rob nitrogen. Put them and compost on top. Worms will bring them down when they're ready. You can mix some gravel in with the soil but it has to be mixed. Not separate layers-it won't drain. NO sand-it will make undrainable cement. Put old wood sticks in the hole. Mixed in, at least 5 inches long. They need fungal soil. They retain water for summer and drain in our wet winters. You can go halfway between what you have and the best soil for that plant but don't go better. Like they said, a clay pot. Watch in the winter if it's wet. You may have to amend some, because a drowning plant catches disease and dies, That plant will never adjust to the soil.
John S
PDX OR

Thanks for all the messages. Lots of good advice here. I dug 2 holes and dumped four gallons of water in each hole. It took about 3 hours to drain out. Should I be worried about that. That was 7 or 8 inches of water. Actually one hole took about a half hour so I filled again and at that time it took about three hours. We get some downpours here but 7 or 8 inches of rain in a few hours is a little unrealistic in nature. Here anyways.

It sure is nice that plants can sometimes survive...even thrive....when planted in imperfect sites, and just as un-nice when expensive, highly sought plants die even when planted in "industry-standard", recommended sites. Gambling game. I have lost enough $$ plants that were planted in holes dug in clay...not when rainfall/watering/drainage was "normal" or regulated.....but after a period of ABnormal rainy weather that did not know how to taper off, that I just gave up on making either shallow or deep soup bowls in dense, packed clay. EVERY fruit vine/bush/tree that I have planted 100% on top of undisturbed clay and encased with a plateau-shaped mound of good soil mix has somehow never died during the every-now-and-then ABnormal periods of swampy wet unending rainy days. If you can regulate the water supply, a tree can grow in a drainless tub. But when the rain falls...and falls...and falls...days...weeks....., you lost the gamble and the plant in the clay soup bowl. Probably. Hey, good luck and attaboy for choosing to grow fruit.

I have bad clay here in Houston were I live and I planted two apple trees using M111 rootstock. Seems to tolerate clay and poor drainage. Also, mulch as much as possible to help with drainage. My Fuji and Granny Smith tree seem to be doing well so far. My Anna apple tree is doing good as well, but I don't know what rootstock it is since I bought that one on sale at Walmart.

this is not an issue.. specific to fruit trees... its simply aobut how you plant things in clay ...

its a general tree planting issue ...

see link for a good primer.. which addresses such ...

if you understand.. that the issue is the TRANSPLANTing itself ... then you will take a quantum leap in understanding ...

and its all about water management.. until the tree settles itself in.. and gets ESTABLISHED... once that happens... the clay is irrelevant ....

e.g. .....you can not dig a hole in non draining soil [do not skip the perk test .. not all clay is bad draining] .. amend it with water holding materials ... like peat and compost.. and then wonder why the roots rotted off ... and part of that involves roots needing air as much as moisture ....

so the idea.. very simply ... is to put half the roots down in native soil .... and half above.. with a good draining soil above... so that the TRANSPLANT... can have a good soil to grow in above... while its sends its roots into the clay below .... which it can.. and which it will ... by the time it is ESTABLISHED ....

hope that makes some sense ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link