Thanks for the report !

"Verd" - I like it!

Good to read your report Paul.

Meal worms sure are easy keepers. I cultured them for awhile and fed them to our chicks.

Pretty amazing how worms get larger and more vigorous outdoors.

Can't wait to hear what you find outside when the spring thaw comes. I bet the cocoons survive and you see baby wigglers!

Keep on posting! Good luck!

Pete

"myceliated" coffee grounds: They are starting to do something similar with green coffee beans to make a smoother cup of coffee.

A lot of information in your post. The Latin in italic it keeps us all on the same page. I liked the duel temperature thing in another post.

Are there meal worm (Tenebrio molitor) forums, too?

Thanks, everyone.

I don't know of any T. molitor forums, equinoxequinox, but then I haven't looked. Meal worms have been a dietary staple in research labs for a very long time.

I should pass along a tidbit of information that 1) I recently heard, and 2) someone "cemented" with first-hand experience.

I have noticed for some time, the offering of "jumbo" or "giant" meal worms. "Yeah, yeah, yeah" I thought. Same ol' hype. So I got some, and they are certainly "jumbo". I wasn't too interested in them, as the 'regular' ones were even too large for my young-of-the-year (yoy) fish, but I was curious about how "they" (whomever "they" are), got the bigger versions. Was it selective breeding or some kind of genetic modification? Turns out, neither. Those that culture them for sale feed the young T. molitor larvae a "juvenile" hormone. Once ingested, that hormone forever prevents that larvae from pupating, and of course then becoming an adult. Therefore, one cannot buy "giant" T. molitor and start a culture of "giants". (Or even 'midgets' for that matter.)

Hmmm.... I thought. Sounds like marketing bulloney (intentionally mis-spelled) to get people to not culture their own "giants". But, I let the matter go without investigating further because I wasn't interested in raising "giants".

Later this past summer, around a backyard 'campfire' with my daughter's boyfriend's family, I was talking about raising meal worms to feed my fish. (The conversation actually started on the topic of vermiculture as his mother is a very successful gardner and HAD - note past tense - attempted raising composting worms. Another Alaskan that broke their sword on that particular endeavor.) One of his sisters is an elementary teacher, and said "Maybe you can help me with something. I always buy some meal worm larvae and do a "project" in the Spring semester in which we talk about insect metamorphosis. It's been four months, and my 'worms' haven't turned into beetles."
I asked, "Did you start with the "jumbos"?
"Yes", she replied.
"Then they never pupate and therefore they will never metamorphose into adults." (I stated quite 'scientifically'.)
For her, the 'light bulb" went on. For me, first-hand evidence that the claim that they would 'never' pupate wasn't just a marketing ploy. So....

If "you" wish to raise your own colony of meal worms, do not start with the "jumbo" or "giant" versions. It is the truth that they will never procreate.

"verd" is member nevex's creation I believe.

With regard to italicized latin names: I was taught that one always italicizes "foreign" words. It supposedly minimizes confusion. Yet another example of how difficult it is to 'rinse out' the 'soap' of skilled brainwashing/indoctrination.

Paul

This post was edited by pskvorc on Sun, Dec 7, 14 at 15:33

Nice Paul, I have been considering meal worms as a treat for the hens. Will probably wait until next spring so cold is one less thing needed to deal with but I remember someone raising them decades ago tellin me they were not much trouble.

I have 'raised' far too many critters in my life to remember, and I honestly can't think of an easier or cheaper species.

Mendopete has raised them for chickens, so he can speak to the size of the colony needed. As for 'room and board'; a plastic container of appropriate size for the size of the colony you want, and keep about 2 inches of "meal" - rolled oats, "minute" oats, "bran", etc in the bottom. A typical round canister of rolled oats should maintain a colony for four to six months that one could harvest one hundred-ish larvae from per week.

I put an apple split in half in the bin about once a month. The apple is purely for fluid, and a potato is just as good. I use the typical "Rubber Maid" tub that is about 16 x 24 and 8" deep. To feed my fish, I remove about 30 larvae every other day.

There are no other environmental requirements. The cooler you keep them the slower they grow and procreate, and conversely, the warmer they are, the faster they grow and procreate. I don't know what the specific temperature boundaries are, but they are insects, so 'typical' temperate climate ranges work just fine. Commercially the larvae are kept refrigerated up to 6 months to retard pupation.

For my two-cents-worth, there is no reason to delay starting your colony. It should take you about a month to six weeks to go from a purchased tub of 100 larvae (I would recommend starting with 250 though), to a self-sustaining population of reproductive adults.

As the initial batch of larvae get to the adult stage, I move the adults to a second tub. When the first tub is empty of larvae, I simply start a second colony. I READ - but have no first-hand knowledge - that the larvae eat the adults. Pupae make good food too, by the way.

To repeat, I can not think of another animal I have kept that was as easy to maintain and propagate.

Paul

PS - I throw the dead larvae and adults in the "worm bin"...

Thanks for that rundown Paul, going to look more into this. Containers are no problem as I have plenty of stuff like that around. Also appreciate the emphasis on easy, this is what I had remembered hearing so nice to see it confirmed. This is something the hens are sure to enjoy and a great additional source of protein along with variety for their feed.

I read an article a few years back about how meal worms are the food of the future. High in protein, low in transfat, easy to raise and take up little room. So I picked up a container of them from the pet store with every intention of trying to eat a few of them, pan fried with garlic. I can't bring myself to do it, so there are meal worms in a box in my bedroom closet. Most of the time I don't remember they are there. Every few months I'll add a carrot or piece of apple for water for them. I really should give them a bit more attention so I can feed them to the turkeys.

Ha Niivek, now that quite funny. Cant blame you for not going through with the experiment though. I would think if I were to consume something like mealworms it would have to be dried and ground so there were no indication visually of what it was that was being eaten.

Actually, I have often looked at the meal worms in my tubs with 'the predator's eye'. However, even though I have a reputation for eating "just about anything", culture, so far, has prevailed. Were it 'necessary' to eat them, I would have little problem, but I would prefer to remove the head and thorax (part that has the legs). In fact, for my small fish, I cut the heads off so there won't be any 'biting' by the ingested worm.

I have heard of, but do not know the veracity of, hatcheries "finishing off" fish by feeding them meal worms right before they are to be harvested. It supposedly improves the flavor of the fish. I can believe that feeding fish meal worms that are in turn fed grain (corn, wheat, oats, etc.), improves the flavor of the fish. I question this alleged practice because of the associated costs. ALL - let me repeat that for emphasis - ALL of the fish hatchery operators I have known, (and I know most of them west of the Mississippi, many east of the Mississippi and several in Canada), are astoundingly focused on profit. I have always found it amazing to what ends they will go to increase profit by almost infinitesimal increments. Therefore I find it difficult to believe that they would do ANYTHING that would elevate operational cost unless there was an unambiguous increase in profit. Of course it is possible that "they" might have actually performed the market analysis AND the MARKETING to convince a purchaser that the fish actually DO taste "better". I just have my doubts.

Still, I think I could gag down a 'helping' of meal worms if properly prepared and presented.

Paul

This post was edited by pskvorc on Tue, Dec 16, 14 at 12:40

I had to Google a photo and those worms are far too disgusting to eat !

Paul, I read your interesting thread. What I didn't understand is :

Do you have now meal worms in your outdoor and indoor bins ?

When you switched from eisenia to meal worms, how did you do ? You just added the new meal worms and they ate the eisenia ? What happened ?

How is the end compost you get from the meal worms ?

How can you be so happy and lively while living in such a cold place ?

How can you be so happy and lively while living in such a cold place ?---------------------------------------

This is one thing I will never understand regardless of the answer.

Francoise, mealworms are raised differently that earthworms. These are usually placed in a dark place with simply bran, oats or similar along with apple or carrot (or any other moisture source).

Since there is no soil and IIRC they create little in the way of soils themselves so the bedding keeps quite clean.

I've read that meal worms do NOT make good compost at all. Their poo is almost a dry powder. The internet told me that when it gets wet it stinks badly. I believe the internet on this one and haven't messed with it.

Paul

Since you mention it I notice my lack of spider mites, springtails the last few months. I dont mind that but I havent changed anything over the last couple of years, maybe thats something that goes on in warmer weather except that my bins are inside. During warm weather I did have my share of fruit flies. but by using the " apple cider vinegar" that knocked them out pretty quick and havent had any all winter. Next spring Im sure they will return.

Paul, got my mealworms in today. Put them into a 15qt tote after spreading a few inches of wheat bran, need to make some ventilation in the lid but they seem quite happy munching on the pieces of apple and cauliflower I put in there.

The surface of the bran reminds me of tremors the way it keeps moving then one will pop half way out onto the apple slice and latch on for awhile.

Did a little more reading on these and it seems if you have a screened bottom to their bin the action of them moving around which they seem to do quite a lot of will self harvest the frass.

One question if you happen to know the answer. How much wheat bran will a couple thousand of these go through in any given time? Of course I will have this answer eventually but thought it would be good to have an idea of what to look for. The nice part is the bran is fairly large and the frass quite fine so it should separate out easily and be able to tell what portions of what are there.

Kind of nice that The Wife seems to have an interest in these little fellas, she loves her chickens and sees the mealies as a great way to treat the hens and something that will be easy enough to keep going through the winter too.

Niivek, I came across some mention of smelly when wet on the frass though it was more towards if the worm bins bother you then the frass probably will too. One suggestion was to add the frass to the compost pile. I was planning on seeing if the EHs might like a turn with it, since my worms are outside a little smelly wont bother me any.

On the subject of eating the mealies... you know the more I think about it and after getting up close with them the less squeamish I am about it. Dont think I would care much for raw and wrigglin but dry roasted and ground into foods you wouldnt even know they were there without being told.

Too bad "mealworms " aren't in the Subject.

I am now interested in mealworms. They sound interesting. I am a bit leery. I might sort of stand back as I carefully peer into their abode. Since we are not the mealworm forum we can feed these guys to... now I need something to feed them to. I need just a few chickens. Somebody must have a micro farm system already designed to include all of this synergistic magic.

Mealworms produce microbe loaded frass and copious amounts of shedded skin since they molt 10 to 20 times in the few months growing from egg to pupae. Also at the end of their egg producing lives the Darkling Beetle's own body is all organic material.

All of the above I think will make for great worm food for composting worms.

Having the hens in the mix is a super way to utilize the larva stage or as Paul does feed them to fish. Maybe a kiddie pool Talapia farm for you Equinox? Or learn how to enjoy the 50% or so protein content of the dried MWs and complete the circle there.

As if "mealworms" wasn't repulsively descriptive enough to turn me off regarding consuming them, "frass" (microbe loaded or otherwise) and "copious amounts of shedded skin" have further conviced me of my desire to keep them off my diet.

chuckiebtoo

watermelon bin 3 days later (with added horse pellets just as an experiment)

Yes, that melon is much more appealing. Dont know of anyone who consumes the frass nor if it might be harmful. Certainly no different for adding to the garden though and quite possibly a very good source of food for the verd.

This thread beats all Weight Watchers' sermons !

Obviously one, who has carefully kept photos of such a pretty watermelon bin since June 2013, could only been digusted by a conversation about mealworms, who could see any paradox there I wonder ;-)

Wow, these little creatures are voracious. The apple and cauliflower I placed in there is showing some serious missing parts. I was under the impression that they just sucked a little water from the stuff put in there but just looked at it and with just two days working on it there is considerable amounts of the piece gone.

Still havent found much on what can be expected for population density to try and figure what kind of space would be required for a given amount of harvest per day.

I did see a discussion where one person stated a cup could be harvested daily from half a million without impacting them. That seems like an excessive number. I also see that temperature can sway the results greatly.

On density I have seen 50 to 100K in a 64qt tote. That would be a tall tote though and I would think the larva would much prefer two short 32qt totes.

A cup a day or more is what I would like to see going into next winter so tryin to figure out just what it would take to realize that so we can decide if it is worth it. Building a brooder room and can dedicate a wall of shelves for them if it looks like the reward is worth the effort.

Along with the hen supplement I see these as fertilizer makers same as vermi and the hens. Do you plan to use the frass in your gardening or composting? I am thinking it is gonna make some happy worms if I let them have a go at it before it goes to the garden but then the vermi that are already in the garden might like some too. Have read mention of smelly when wet, now I dont know to just what degree so it will probably take some experimenting.

Again thanks for your detailed posts on the Darkling, it was the encouragement I needed to just go ahead and start.