I'd like to look at that bed all day long.

Your garden is beautiful - no wonder you want to emphasize the view!

I want to second (or third or fourth?) @cluelessincolorado's suggestion of building in a bench for your seating area. I know that you mocked up the space of 30" table - but you didn't have actual bodies there! It's the knees and the elbows that make it tough to squeeze 3 adults with plates and beverages at a 30" table particularly if there is cabinetry all around them. If you don't want built-in, a lot of GWers (myself included) have used Ballard's modular banquettes pretty effectively. You could do a 36" bench seat or a small corner version.

Mags, crl & smalloldhouse: Thank you!

I just got off the phone with one of my sisters, and she said: "you know, do you really need that window over the sink? You need all the storage you can get, you've got your bay window and you'll have that big window at the back letting in all that light..."

I said "if I can get the window, I want it."

I'll see the window from the sink, and, even if it's not a very big window, I'll see it from the rest of the kitchen, every time I come down my steps (which is a lot, no bathroom on the first floor,) and I think maybe even a little from the table - depending on how I position my chair.

smalloldhouse - is the Ballard's I linked below the one you're thinking of? I do think I like the idea of a bench (or maybe even a corner bench.)

Here is a link that might be useful: This Ballard's?

HomeChef & FunkyCamper (& others?) you both expressed concern about how little storage space I've got, and how much space a window over the sink would take up.

I saw a sink today (in attached image) & thought of FunkyCamper's suggestion of a window AND a cabinet. Since most cabinets over sinks tend to start up higher than the standard uppers, why not put in a smallish window in between? I tried to find examples Online of that setup, with the window & didn't see any - why isn't this done more often?

I think it could work well and give me the view I want, AND some storage. Plus, it would make a full run of cabinets on that wall - with an OTR microwave (& cabinet above) added to the layout, which I think would look better. A taller window would showcase more of the walls - of the rowhomes that border my garden, which I don't need to see more of, and maybe give me a bit more light, which I won't really need with the sliding door (w/ transom above, hopefully.)

One thing that's bothered me in the KD renderings is that cabinet to the right of the sink, over the DW (especially if I go with an 18" DW) would be this sort of narrow cabinet hanging out all by itself, looking lost. If I do a cabinet over the sink/window, I think it would look way more cohesive.

Of course, if I don't end up doing a window, I could always have a backsplash or a nice (water resistant) painting over the sink, or a couple shallow open shelves with pretty ceramic coffee mugs, etc.

What do you think?

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So, I may decide - even if permitting works out - that the extra expense/hassle for such a small window isn't worth it, but this link is kinda what I was thinking.

Here is a link that might be useful:

There are pictures of cabs over windows out there. We had one like that mid-reno of our last house. The mistake I made was of making it stand proud of the cabinets to each side of it, and then it made me feel claustrophobic looming over my head. Prior to that, it had been flush with the side cabinets and I was ok with it there.

Here is a link that might be useful: Google images of cabinets over sinks.

Thanks, laughable - I did that same search, and noticed that most of those windows don't actually have cabinets over them. A few do, but not many.

What does it mean to "stand proud of cabinets?" Does it mean that the window was right up against the cabinets?

What do you think of the link I posted at 14:36, would that work, do you think? (minus the crossbars on the window - why obstruct an already small view?)

You could do open shelves across the window. That would connect the right upper with the rest.

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Thanks, Jillius. Those open shelves look so pretty. The ones in the top photo look most like what I'd probably do, if I go that route. Certainly cheaper than an extra cabinet, and prettier/more open.

I think it's a tradeoff between real storage and display of pretty things. That and dusting.

I like the window you posted, but the shelves Jillius posted would look much better. It can be real storage, don't just display pretty things, use them and they won't get dusty that way.

Sena - good point! My favorite coffee mug would be perfect up there! That and my cereal bowls.

As I was washing dishes this morning I realized that I gave up a lot of storage to get more light in my kitchen. Added another window and whacked down two side walls so I get the desire and I don't even have the gorgeousness to look at like you have! If for some reason you CAN'T put in a window, you could always add a fixed window next to the french doors
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Nice photos jillius! I'm sorry I didn't see your wall request before, I get
a tad myopic on these threads :)

This post was edited by cluelessincolorado on Wed, Jan 14, 15 at 20:12

I mean that the upper over the window stuck out farther than the ones to either side of it. (We thought it would make a nice feature, but I didn't like how it turned out. Live and learn.) Here are a couple of pictures.

When we moved in, the cabinets were oak, and there was no window over the sink. We put the window in and raised the cabinet in the middle up to make room for the window, and painted the cabinets white. My mistake was bringing that center cabinet forward making it feel like I was dishwashing in a tunnel.

If you look closely, you can see the cabinet sticking out farther over the window on the right side of the kitchen:
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And here it is from straight on. If we had kept this layout, all of the cabinets would have been trimmed out with crown molding. We never got to that point as we ended up changing some of the layout and redoing the upper cabinets.
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Here is a link that might be useful: OT, but if you're curious, here's our reveal. The fridge and pantry ended up where the sink is here.

Clueless - thank you. Your idea of a small window to the right of the range could work - I had been thinking I'd do a narrow cabinet over the range, but if I can't get my window over the sink - off to the right there is a pretty corner of the garden.

Laughable - I totally see what you mean about that cabinet over the sink in your old kitchen. Your reveal is GORGEOUS! I'd seen it before, but somehow didn't make the connection between helpful/knowledgeable laughable and the lucky person with that amazing farmhouse kitchen!

It's affirming to me that you've got a bunch of the design elements (or are they finishes?) that I want - white cabinets, largely white appliances, rusting looking old wood floor, and darker countertops. Your floors are really spectacular.

This post was edited by carrieb on Wed, Jan 14, 15 at 20:29

Thank you for your kind words. : ) I love the look of white cabs with white appliances and the rustic floors. I also love the *look* of the dark counters...but, their function I don't love as much. Crumbs and goo totally hid on our dark, mottled counters. I had to clean them by feel rather than by sight. Our black counters also gobbled light out of the space. If you can get past those issues, they're great. : )

This time around I'm going for mid-tone counters, a laminate called Soapstone Sequoia by Wilsonart. It's a warm gray, but has a lot of texture. I don't know how the cleaning will be until we get them installed. Hopefully I'll know more in a month or two.

You know, the point about counter color & showing dirt has come up several times here - I've seen it mentioned that light/medium tones hide dirt better - and that's been mentioned as a good thing. And, here, you'd rather be able to SEE the stuff so you can clean it.

I had dinner at a friends' who had a rather busy/moving granite - she complained that she couldn't see stuff to clean it. I'm torn in that I'd rather not have something that shows every cat hair... ;-)

(I'm leaning toward a medium grayish brown - maybe Caesarstone Lagos Blue or similar)

Whatever you do I would make sure you bring the cabinets all the way up to the ceiling. An under cabinet range hood could vent out the wall and with a tall cabinet above you would have storage too even if you have to put part of the ducting in the lower section of the cabinet.

The KD plans doesn't show it all the way to the top. I'd a small gap then I'd fill it in with moldings. Less stuff to clean that way and it doesn't look like the space is enough to really put decorative items there either without them looking squished.

I had those thoughts too , although not in front of a window. It came out nice, but the top shelf really wasn't useful. It became a 'decorator' shelf since it wasnt practical for me to pull out a ladder each time I wanted any tableware from the top shelf. Shelving height to be practical, was much more important than I anticipated.

Thanks, lyfia. I do want my cabinets to go to the ceiling. I don't think the drawings adequately illustrate the height of my ceilings - they're 8'8".

Mags - you know, I like the look of cabinets to the ceiling, and I like the IDEA of the extra storage, but I do wonder if anything I put way up there will just get lost - never to be seen again.

I currently have one cabinet to the ceiling - over my refrigerator. On the top shelf.. I have some stuff up there... it's full. I only know for sure that there's a cardboard box full of liquor. Don't ask me what kind of liquor it is. I get up on a chair and pull the box down a couple times a year for a party. If a guest brings a bottle that isn't wine or beer, any bottles not empty at the end of the party end up in that box & go back up to that top shelf...

I really see no reason for you to have to compromise between window views to your garden and storage. You can have both.

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Thanks, funkycamper. I did see some of those types of glass window/cabinets in my searches, but the truth is, I don't like the look of glass doors/cabinets - I guess it's (yet another) quirk of mine. Even well lit ones with pretty things inside. If I'm going to go for the bigger window (the KD is encouraging me to do that) I'm going to do it without glass cabinets. I initially thought I might put in a glass cabinet or two, until I really started looking at them & realized I don't like them.

I really only have a couple of shelves worth - maybe 3 linear feet of pretty things that I'd want visible in the kitchen - and if I displayed them visibly, for me, it would be decorative & not efficient storage.

I'm thinking I need storage for cat food, water glasses and tablecloths and not so much for pretty things. But now that the KD is encouraging me not to give up window space, I'm thinking more about Jillius's first photo in her above post - the one with the two white shelves connecting the white cabinets across the window. I really think I do need something to tie that far cabinet to the rest of the cabinets.

Yes, I like the other solutions that the others have posted, too. Lots of options to consider.

I guess I just don't see that those glass see-through cabinets have to be limited to just typical pretties. I would put every day dishes in there, glasses, mugs. The types of things you'd want near your sink/DW anyway for easy storage. Unless your glasses and dishes are super-duper ugly, they would look fine in a cabinet like that, imho.

If you wanted to store things on the upper shelves that wouldn't look good through the glass, you could resolve this a couple of ways:
* Put small curtain rods inside the glass with the lower rod between the bottom shelf and the next one up. This way only the bottom shelf which is at a height you could be looking through anyway has a view of the items inside. If you choose a thin fabric with an open weave or a lace or dotted swiss, you would get light through the upper cabinets but obscure what's in them.
* Same idea as above but put some of that decorative glass covering that sticks to the glass over the glass for the upper shelves leaving the bottom shelf uncovered.
* Have two sets of doors on the cabinet. Short doors on the lowers with glass inserts so you can see through both windows to outside. Then the rest of the cabinets, 2nd shelf to top, are solid doors.

Obviously, if you plan to obscure any of the upper shelves, the backs of those wouldn't even need to be windows anyway. That would save a few bucks for smaller windows. Then you might run a row of cabinets above the window with solid doors to store un-pretties. And then have either glass door cabinets or an open shelf in front of a lower shelf in front of window.

Like I said, there are a lot of good options to consider and way to make this work for you. I really wouldn't close the door on finding a creative solution to having both the view and the storage. I really wouldn't. The view is important to you. Find a way to get it. Don't compromise.

I'm also thinking about your concern in the other discussion (about OTR microwaves) where you worried about seeing it from your living room. So a window back splash and windows going up at least through the 1st shelf of your cupboards would also be seen from the living room as well, right? If it were me, I'd be squealing with joy about that as this means I can see my garden from almost everywhere in my main living space, no matter where I'm at.

Also, any of these ideas will make your kitchen look a bit less cookie cutter and more unique. Since your kitchen is so small, it's appeal will be more limited to others and, as you said earlier, you may sell 10-15 years, IIRC, in the future. So I'm thinking it's possible that a more unique window wall will be a selling point to potential buyers.

OK, maybe it would be a big selling point to ME if I was looking at your place. I love windows. The more, the bigger, the better. So maybe I'm pushing this more than I should. I just think they'd make your kitchen sing. And sing the whole dang Hallelujah Chorus! LOL

Thank you, funkycamper. You know, outdoor views were one of the reasons I first thought about re-doing my kitchen. I really, really want them. The tradeoff has been largely about two things: cost & storage needs.

You are right that the glass cabinets could be decent storage, and, if I liked the way they looked, I'd seriously consider them.

The backsplash window idea is a very cool one - though I am concerned with cost. I realize that the backsplash window would cost me nothing in terms of storage space.

Another thing that I'm trying to bear in mind about the window is that the garden view is below window level - I walk up three steps to get into my house, and my garden on the sink side is only about 15' wide, so I'm largely looking down - looking straight out from the window I see a neighboring wall, so window space up top and straight out doesn't look like much. Even now, sitting on my couch & looking out the bay window, I'm looking mostly at walls. I have to be standing at the window & looking down to see the garden.

I'm thinking I will live in this house until it is no longer comfortable for me to climb my steep, spiral staircase many times a day to get to the bathroom. I'm 49 now, and am in good physical shape, so I hope I've got at least another 20 years here!

Since I plan on being here, I definitely want windows that will show off my garden!

Speaking of cost... KD just got back to me & seemed to warn me that ceiling height cabinets would bring me way over budget... grrrr. she's going to get back to me w/ an estimate for that, though.

Yeah, budget vs. function vs. form vs. dreams vs. reality. Oy veh! I'm dealing with the same type of battles with my own plans. Add in a DH who doesn't see anything wrong with our crappy kitchen and would just paint keeping budget to about $100 and be super happy. Oh, he's good to have around and he's very handy for keeping costs down as we can DIY but he couldn't care less about aesthetics.

When I discussed needing more counter, he offered to build me a work table out of 2x4's. He's NOT a finish carpenter, that's the only type of DIY stuff we pay for. So, no, I don't want him to build me a table but thanks for offering. Ack!

Between all the good help you've gotten here, finally finding a KD you seem to be comfortable working with, and all the research and thought you've put into this, I'm sure your final kitchen will turn out great.

I love the idea of having the glass cabs in front of a window. Saved a couple photos of them during my research. Unfortunately, in my cold climate it really wasn't practical. We did a gut job in our kitchen and replaced the plaster and lathe with dry wall. Even with some insulation, what a difference on those exterior walls. It's cold! I can just imagine what glass-to-glass would be like.

This is none of my business, so please excuse any nosiness! If you use this KD company, does that mean you have to purchase cabinets through them or are you just paying for plans? Have you researched any custom cabinet makers or RTA companies like Scherrs? Your space is prime for custom work and it might be beneficial to price out both options and get what you want for your space.
I also wanted to let you know that I have the Kraus 23" sink in a 27" cabinet so you might shave a couple inches there to add to a drawer stack. Last, but not least, I used the Rev-a-shelf pullouts for garbage, recycling, and dog food and have been very happy with them. We did have custom cabs made because there wasn't a huge difference and we had some funky things to work around ;)

Here is a link that might be useful: Trash/recycing parts

Clueless - Good questions, and not nosy at all!

No, I don't have to use the company the KD works with. If I end up going with her line of cabinets, she'd refund all or part of the design fee since she gets a cabinet commission, but that alone would not make me go with her cabinets. I haven't researched custom because I really didn't think that any custom cabinets will be within my budget. I'm doing a largely low-mid budget kitchen - so I don't think custom cabinets fit that, but it probably is worth getting at least one estimate.

That said, if I'm having the designer draw up plans, and I've asked her to specify stock cabinet sizes... Well, I think I'd have to get (and pay for) two separate sets of drawings to price out, right? If I'm getting prices for custom & prices for stock?

Speaking of RTA, I originally thought I'd go with IKEA, but I'm not at all handy & am in the process of starting my own business, so time is also limited, and I've heard from several sources (is this true?) that cabinet factory workers are significantly less well paid than contractors, so getting RTA & paying a contractor to put them together largely eats up any saving from factory assembled cabinets.

Good to know about the Kraus 23". The KD is suggesting a 30" base cabinet for symmetry with the 30" range, which I like the idea of. Plus, if I do end up putting both the recycling & trash under the sink, those extra 3" are going to make a big difference. I wish the Rev-a-Shelf wasn't so darned expensive. Nearly a week's wages for a trash pullout...

You can totally assemble ikea cabinets yourself before someone else installs them. You need zero experience with DIY stuff. It's quite easy.

Jillius - I'm sure that's actually true. I would have such little space (my small living room, which will also be the only place to house a temp kitchen) to set up as a workshop, and all that while my kitchen was being worked on & I was living in my house. It just really sounds unmanageable to me.

I promise you that this is very doable.

You can assemble the few cabinets you are getting in two days tops. And as you finish each one, put it in the kitchen, which will be empty. You can also do your assembling in the empty kitchen, placing boxes wherever in the living room or foyer while you work, and then when you are done, move the finished boxes into the empty kitchen.

You can also ask your installer if he intends to install the uppers or lowers first. He will probably say uppers. So you assemble just those one night, put them in the empty kitchen, he installs them the next morning. Then the next night, you assemble the lowers, put them in the kitchen, and he installs those the next morning. Boom.

Regardless of anything, your time assembling and your time finding places to put assembled boxes will be very brief. A few days of minor discomfort at most. I promise you that if you do it, you will absolutely agree that it isn't worth any amount of money to pay someone else to do it for you for so few cabinets when you have other things to spend your money on.

Here is an instructional video that will maybe take some of the mystery/intimidation out of it.

Instructional Video

All their boxes come with the same types of fasteners to fit the sides of the box together. So regardless of which cabinet, you will be putting them all together the same way.

You can see in the video, this is the total list of fasteners:

1) weird-looking extra tall screws that screw in
2) normal-looking short screws that screw in
3) funny-looking discs that get pushed into a hole and then turned with a screw driver
4) bits of cylindrical wood (called dowels) that just get pushed into holes
5) tiny nails that get hammered in

All the holes you need are already drilled into the cabinet sides, and the cabinets come with pictorial instructions. So:

a) You look at the picture, grab the fastener shown in the picture, and put it in the hole shown in the picture

Over and over and over. And then:

b) Occasionally the picture will indicate that you should slide a certain piece over another piece. Both pieces will be pictured, and both come with holes that line up.

That's it!

Thanks, Jillius. I'll see how the cost comes out, and will consider it. (i wish I had a foyer)

@carrieb, I'm with you on this. I had dreams (no, illusions) of assembling Ikea or Barker cabinets myself. In a 1900 sqft house with no basement or garage, 2 kids and a FT job. One can dream. Then I saw this blog post.

Here is a link that might be useful: Post on assembling Ikea cabinets by The Kitchn

You know, my entire first floor is less than 400sq ft, and maybe if I had a partner, someone to go through that process with me (and, yes, to fight with) then maybe it would feel more doable. I look at those boxes is smalloldhouse's link, and my blood pressure begins to rise.

But I'll rip out your lawn & design & plant your entire garden in three days. By myself.

Hey, if you lived in the PNW, I'd take you up on that. I'll put together your cabinets; you do my garden!

Funkycamper (and jillius, & anyone else) if you were putting together my cabinets with me, and guiding me/talking me down off the cliff, maybe drinking beer or tea with me, I think I could do it. It's the image of sitting by myself, in my torn up house, boxes and wood and hardware and cats(!) all around me - me, in a puddle on the floor. It isn't pretty.

Aw, kitties "helping" is my favorite part of projects too. Mine is currently deciding which of the hardwood floor samples we just brought home she likes best. Seems as if the hickory is winning.

Could your sisters help? I also have two sisters, and they would complain a lot, but they would help.

Jillius - then you must get hickory!

My sisters live in other cities. I don't think I could possibly bribe them enough to stay overnight with me, let alone help me make cabinets.

Could you try just one and see how it goes?

Lyfia - I think if I bought just one IKEA cabinet and then decided I didn't want to do it... well... it's not like I could take it apart and return it to IKEA, I don't think. Seems like it could be a pretty expensive experiment. And the truth is, I'm sure I could put together one cabinet, but I may not want to put together a dozen, and I may not want to take up my entire first floor putting together a dozen.... while I am without a kitchen. It just seems like there are enough elements to drive me crazy that I'd maybe rather go hungry for a month.

PS: I should add these two things:

1) I talked to an IKEA kitchen employee several months ago, who told me, when I asked if they had a list of contractors that they recommend, that they have one company that they use throughout the region. He said that they charge $100/per cabinet to assemble, and that includes all internal fittings.

2) I didn't particularly like IKEAs doors, so if I were to order from Sherr's or Barkers, I don't know that the IKEA contractor would include them in the $100, but, probably, just adding doors would be something that I could handle myself.

But you wouldn't have to assemble them while you are without a kitchen. You could assemble them before you tear out your kitchen. Offer pizza and beer to your friends. Or the same thing you offered us in jest...doing their garden.

If you go to IKEA, they usually have an "as is" section near checkout where items that have been damaged are sold very cheap. You could probably find a small cabinet to practice on for minimal cost.

But I only have less than 400sf total on my first floor (living room, kitchen, dining) - I'd have no place to put more than one or two small cabinets. And then nowhere to put them while they're tearing out the kitchen - there's just no room. I mean, I can't imagine how I could still get in and out the front door - and while I could move the chairs & coffee table upstairs - I can't move the couch out of the first floor.

I realize this morning that my post from late last night sounds like a petulant child lying on her back and screaming with feet & hands up in the air. Maybe I've again reached one of those phases in my kitchen planning where I just have to do that every so often.

My apologies for being such an childish ingrate.

Frustrating isn't it?!?

Hey, we all go through it. This sounds like your first kitchen remodel. Anything new can be more overwhelming. Just focus on the positive, your new, more functional and attractive kitchen!!

Sometimes people set up a temporary kitchen in their basement. Do you have space to do that? Or plan for the work to happen during the summer and then your temporary kitchen can be in your garden. Your could set your microwave on a table right inside your door to the garden and then sit outside to eat.

I could tell you horror stories about our last kitchen remodel. But I don't want to scare you, lol. At least I now know what I'm in for and can better prepare for it. Let's just say that I'll never do this in the winter again. At least if you do it in the summer, you can go outside to grill and sit outside in the sun to escape the chaos.

You're not alone in needing to vent. Really. You would be unusual if you didn't need a pity-party once in awhile.

Thank you for your understanding, funkycamper. Yes, my first (and last!) kitchen remodel. Several years ago, I had to replace my bathroom pedestal sink due to a crack in the basin.

Just that process alone: Pedestal or vanity? How many holes for the faucet? faucet finish? faucet style? Finding a new plumber? All that was pretty overwhelming - just for a bathroom sink.

Interesting idea about the basement. There is a sink down there. I don't think it would work, but using it some makes sense. It's an unfinished basement, and contractors will be down there a lot for a while, anyway to move water/gas lines, etc. Plus, well, the 400 sf down there includes kitty litter boxes, washer drier, hot water heater, furnace & ductwork... Maybe the microwave on a table.

Outside would be nice... the garden door is & will be right in the middle of the kitchen, so, well, I don't know.

You know, I feel like I'm being really a brat when I come on here for advice, and 99% of the time I get back on and say "no, your free and generous advice isn't useful to me and it won't work."

I actually do really, really, really appreciate it, though. And already I'm going to have soooo much better of a kitchen due to you all here.

Yeah, no pain-no gain.

I, too, am overwhelmed by the choices. There are either more choices than my last remodel or I am just more aware of them. In a way, I almost wish I didn't know about them. It would make decision-making easier. But then one wouldn't end up with as good of a space when done either.

Monika, Carrie's gorgeous kitchen is finished. This thread is a year old. :)

HA I know I just saw the date and was about to delete you beat me to it.