I've found that taking out old gnarly or diseased canes almost always produces new basal growth. Sometimes I have even cut an old rose to the ground and it came back up with new life. I think it is important to not do this too early or too late. I don't know what to say about zone 7A(I'm 8) I don't use epsom salts because our soil is high in Magnesium. Another thing I was told by an expert was to prune Teas only when they are actively growing. I pruned mine in late summer this year. They look good. I did what I would call summer pruning this year with great results. I got a better fall bloom from some roses and others were easier to deal with at regular pruning time.

I have a lot of winter damage on my roses. Two successive years of very cold weather (with temps out of my zone) have done damage. I lost some last year and some this year don't look too good. However, the way you prune teas and other roses is a bit different. For teas, I don't take down cane length, I will take out whole canes or laterals up to the main cane to remove extra growth. But they don't like canes being shortened.

My shrub pruning is sort of a 'take no prisoners' approach. We were pruning in a community garden with the society and there were Knock Outs. I just went into the bushes with my loppers and cut down to below the 'knobs' (I hate knobs). I was done in about 10 minutes. The others were nattering about clipping here and there. I just don't waste my time with shrubs, especially KOs. I also took out some big old canes. I give them 3-5 years, or when they get grey and so old. If you don't remove old canes, you may not get new canes.

I know that everytime I don't prune enough, I regret it. I rarely regret pruning a lot. The roses normally love it and will respond. Of course there are exceptions.

I tend to look at every rose individually. Since I have only 56 that's not so difficult to do. Le Vesuve is full of dead undergrowth but since it's on the edge of a steep hill and the thorns are deadly I'd probably gouge out an eye before plunging down the hill. I shape the top to keep it under control and one of the two I don't really shape at all because again I'd be risking a few broken limbs. Any rose I can get to I take out the dead parts. Bishop's Castle tends to flop so I prune it more severely and deadhead it way back on the cane so the roses don't drag around on the ground. Sometimes I learn by experience. I didn't prune Cottage Rose much one winter and it was a disaster that spring. Cutting any rose back by one third is probably a safe thing to do. I really don't cut out old canes because it's just too arduous for me, but it is advised to remove at least one. I didn't think I should cut back Mutabilis much but it suddenly declined and I cut off at least half of it, which was a good thing because I found a gopher hole and it was the gopher that was killing it. It was a mature rose and it's not something I'd do more often than every four or five years if it looked as though it needed rejuvenation. Paul Zimmerman's videos on rose pruning are really helpful if you have doubts about doing it correctly.

If you want commiseration, you'll find it here, but helpful information is another thing. I agonize over certain roses, too, particularly the Teas. One reason I love the once-blooming old roses--Gallicas, Centifolias, etc.--is that they're easy to prune: take out the oldest canes, shorten the new ones if need be, eliminate as much of the twiggy growth as you feel like, and voilà, you're done. I don't have any roses for which hard pruning is a desirable option: they're all pretty much shrubby or climbers.

If I eliminated all damaged and diseased growth on a rose, in quite a few cases I'd have to prune down to the ground. I particularly have the Teas in mind. The bases of their canes look terrible. They don't make new canes emerging from the ground to form a thicket: everything comes from a single base, and the big canes that part from close to the ground are few. I leave these big canes until they're obviously deteriorating, as there are so few of them and each cane supports a large portion of the plant, this even in the case of my relatively few thriving Teas. One consideration in my case is that our growing season is relatively short, if you call "growing season" that period when roses get both warmth and light, and water, since our summers are dry and we don't irrigate.

I'm in the middle of pruning my warm climate roses, and this year I'm gritting my teeth and shortening canes on my vigorous Teas. They're totally out of hand. They make long, long canes which get smashed in our regular winter snows. I don't know how many U.S. gardeners have this problem, as I think few areas are warm enough for Tea roses and yet get significant snow (I mean a foot or more). Buford? Ann in Tennessee? Others? So I'm shortening the canes by about a quarter, hoping for the best after a really nasty snowfall in February.

Some roses have quite long-lived canes that reach a quiet senescence when it's clear their time has come. Roses like the Hybrid Musks, on the other hand, need regular pruning out of old canes; also I think some Hybrid Perpetuals are like this. These roses are not too happy in my conditions, and their canes get a lot of disease and insect damage (Gallicas, I LOVE you!). I'm doubtful about the white pith business, too. I judge more by the kind of growth coming out of a cane, and by the age of the cane itself: if it looks old, and there are plenty of vigorous young canes, I'll prune it out even if it looks reasonably healthy. I do think roses need this renewal pruning. That's probably stating the obvious, only it took me years to understand it. Also, some roses stand particular kinds of cane damage much better than others. Those that are particularly susceptible to cane girdler damage, for example, need to have damaged canes pruned , as they'll break anyway.

About Pam's comments about pruning Teas when they're in active growth: I guess I did it right this year, because they're starting now to put out their new leaves.

Melissa, I've never had a foot of snow here (I think Atlanta would disappear if we got a foot of snow). We do get ice, which can be more damaging. A few years ago, when my Mrs BR Cant was in full glory, several large canes became so heavy with growth and blooms and when we had a heavy rain, they cracked under the weight. The bush at that time was about 6 years old and had never had a real structural pruning. So went in and removed the heaviest canes at the base. Unfortunately last year it died to the ground from the polar vortex. It did rebound, but I lost it when I had all that construction in my yard. I do have a replacement that I have to plant. It depends on the growth habit of the rose. BR Cant is one that stays low and sweeping vs Madame Lambard which is more upright and can almost climb.

Thank you, Mendocino. I always hope for new basal growth, but sometimes it is hard to get. Pruning seems to stimulate the lower canes to put out more growth, but not the basal breaks that I expect.

Mad Gallica, it is important to know how to treat the individual rose, and that is my down fall I guess. I have felt that the darker the pith, the weaker the cane. Once the roses begin to grow in the spring, I often do not remember the color of the pith. This year I intend to keep a record. (I wonder if I will go past one or two roses with a record.)

Buford, I hoped that you would respond since our comments seem to indicate that our growing conditions are quite similar. Last year I had so much damage, and this year appeared rather mild until we had recent hard freezes after the roses began to grow. It bothers me to see a cane that should be green, but has turned reddish purple. I am afraid that it is a cane that will be very weak in July when pruning it will not stimulate any growth. I did not know that about the teas, and half my garden at least are teas and chinas. I need to keep track of what happens after I prune. I do agree with the shrubs, and i do cut my hybrid musks to keep them under control.

Ingrid, I always look forward to your responses, but our zones are quite different. The whole world should envy you for your weather, except you don't have enough water, not counting the ocean. I visited your city a few months ago, and you do have hills. Hills and cliffs are so beautiful, but I understand what you are talking about when you speak of gardening. We also have a hill in the back of our garden, and I often crawl to work instead of walk. My husband does not do much work in the yard, it isn't his thing, but I often ask him to "spot" me when I am pruning the roses on the hill. I did not know that gophers would hurt a mature rose. Here we have voles following mole holes. They are very small, but can do real damage.

Melissa, it is good to hear from you. I was looking for you last summer, and did not realize you took a long vacation. Our weather may be similar to yours. We lived in Nashville for 8 years, and it is similar to that weather. However, even though our summers an soar to way over 100 degrees, and our winters can get cold, close to zero, we do not get the heavy snow you are talking about. We do get ice, and that is not good for the roses. The teas are perhaps my main concern. More than likely I should not grow them, but we are in zone 7, and they are beautiful, so I keep growing them. Looking at the size of canes on an older cane is a good rubric for me. If the cane looks good, but has small grow that came from it last year, I remove it. If the cane does not look too good, but if it holds large new growth, I may keep it, but possibly reduce it somewhat.

Thank you all for your responses.

Sammy

Alfalfa pellets (from your local feed store that sells to horse owners) does wonders. It encourages new basal canes and makes the new ones thicker and stronger.

Lee

Sammy, I remember last year there were canes that looked ok and even had new growth, but slowly died. There was an article about it that said the canes were dead at the base, but had enough energy stored to support some new growth, but would eventually fail. I think that is what I learned last year. This year I think I'd rather take a chance and prune hard instead of watching a rose slowly die.

Sammy, we'll be around, that is at home in Italy, this summer. Next year back in the U.S. to visit family if all goes well. It's nice you noticed I wasn't around for a while.

I actually enjoy pruning on most of my roses, though it's a slow job. The Teas and Chinas are the worst because most of them don't do well and because I'm so unsure about how to deal with them. There's also the matter of terrain. Most of my biggest and most successful Teas are on terraced ground, and scrambling around to get at them is quite a job, just like Ingrid says. But the once-blooming roses of European origin are solidly satisfactory: wading in to bring 'Petite Lisette' to order, or discovering that my beautiful 'Ypsilante' has at last begun to put out strong new young canes, and possibly, to sucker. And pruning the large warm climate climbers is generally good too, as most of them are doing well and I can prune great chunks off them and not worry about not having enough plant left. 'Jaune Desprez' is desperately thorny as well as vigorous, it's true. 'Maréchal Niel' has done poorly for years, and 'Souv. de Mme. Leonie Viennot' would love to get off her too-small pergola and have a nice sturdy tree to climb, only there isn't one. But by and large these are good roses to work with.

I'm wondering if I couldn't, and shouldn't, train 'Mrs. B.R. Cant' as a climber. She's tall enough, and it would support those lanky canes. This is what I'm currently trying with 'Archduke Joseph'.

Melissa

Melissa, I think that BR Cant could climb. Before mine died back from the Polar Vortex, it was putting out some tall canes. I assumed that with the weight of side growth and blooms, these canes would begin to lay down a bit, but if they had support, they could climb. I am now starting over with two new plants. Babies really. It will take a few years, but Hopefully they will be as fabulous as the first one I had. Which was actually my second since the lawn guy killed the first baby by dragging a hose across the yard.

Buford, I also had that experience of watching them fade away, but saw the slow growth of those that I cut back severely. I am well into my pruning now, and I intend to leave some of those canes on my roses so that they will get the photosynthesis and help the main plant grow better. Later, like in June, I intend the cut them. The problem is that I will cut a healthy looking cane, but I know that the one big flush is all that the rose will put out.

Mrs. B.R. Cant is a failure for me. She can live for two years, maybe three, then a cold snap gets her.

Melissa, I also wonder about pruning the teas and chinas. I have decided to avoid the climbers anymore, but some of the teas and chinas become quite tall. I cut them down so I can manage them. That isn't a good reason, I suppose, but it works for me. I have ordered some more hybrid musks, and will enjoy watching them.

leezen, thank you for the suggestion of alfalfa pellets. I need to research them to see if their use would duplicate something I am already using. I do need to encourage that new growth.

Sammy