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cefreeman

Talk to me about applying veneer

Hi all!

I've had another flash of brilliance and am thinking about veneering some slab cabinet doors and drawer fronts I already have, rather than investing in another million of them.

I've been reading about veneers and find myself in my usual state of 1/2 informed confusions.

I would like to veneer some in oak, another area in cherry.
- Is PSV better/easier to work with than the gluing down kind? Does one adhere better than the other.
- What is "flat cut?"
- What is "plain sliced?"
- Is there a standard thickness?
- What is PSA?
- What is "sequence matched?"
- Is there a brand or vendor you prefer?

- What questions should I be asking, and what are the pitfalls of this venture?

Thanks to all my woodworking friends. I know I can count on you to send me in the right direction. Even if it's not the one I hope to go! :)

Comments (10)

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    There are tons of good articles on woodworking fora which lay out all the different techniques and terminology. There is old-style hammer veneering with hot glue, there is contact cement work, and vacuum veneer presses.
    For a beginner, the paper-backed veneers are close to foolproof, because they are continuous and one need only get then glued without bubbles. Working with raw veneers is an art form. You need only a few special tools, but the edged ones must be expertly sharpened and used properly. You need experience with the hot glue pot, and nerves of steel.
    I have repaired old, bubbled veneer, and have worked with the resin-paper-backed type. I haven't ever gotten my nerve up to do "real" veneer work, although I have a project in process that I really want to try it out on.
    Casey


  • 11 years ago

    You know I always start my questions here, Casey. I don't know those people in other fora. They might lead me astray. LOL!

    Paper backed. They're the ones you put on with the iron? Rockler has some nice-looking sheets here and a tool they recommend here. It talks about smoothing out the bubbles.

    I was asking about preferred vendors, because I'm also finding the same 24" x 96" sheets for 1/2 that price. I'm not one that believes paying more always = better quality, but I do believe you get what you pay for.

  • 11 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    - Is PSV better/easier to work with than the gluing down kind? Does one adhere better than the other.

    We've only used contact adhesive back when we had a shop and the press and the ventilation because it's flammable ;-)
    - What is "flat cut?"
    - What is "plain sliced?"
    Flat cut (or sliced) and plain sliced are the same thing.
    - Is there a standard thickness?
    Roughly +/-.75mm according to the samples I have laying around. I think newer stuff might be thinner (1/64th maybe?)
    - What is PSA?
    Pressure Sensitive Adhesive (pretty much the same as peel and stick)
    - What is "sequence matched?"
    Sequence matched refers to pre-numbered panels laid up from the same flitch. The right side of panel 1 would be "matched" to the left side of panel 2 to form a continuous, pleasing look; the right side of panel 2 would be "matched "with the left side of panel 3, etc. It refers more to wall paneling rather than cabinet doors.
    - Is there a brand or vendor you prefer?
    I've never used Oakwood Veneer but they have lots of information, tips, methods and troubleshooting for different adhesives, etc. We haven't purchased veneer in years, so I don't know who's in the business anymore.

    What are your slab doors and drawers made of? Solid wood? PB? Veneer core? I've only ever laid veneer up on MDF, because it's so nice and flat. Heavy, though. Are you going to edgeband them?

    What style of cabinets are you planning on using the doors on? Full overlay, so you see very little of the cabinet body behind? Or reveal overlay? Can you match the door to the cabinet body?

    Just curious. Lots of questions to be asked/answered depending on what your plans are. Hope that helps a little.

  • 11 years ago

    This is great! Thanks. :)

    I'm thinking of veneering some solid maple slab doors and drawer fronts. Inset doors and yes, I could match the doors to the cabinet. Wouldn't that be a gorgeous effect!?

    I'll check out Oakwood Veneer, to see what they have!

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    https://www.certainlywood.com/woodmenu.php I have been using veneer from this place for years. I think they only sell raw veneers though.For the beginner I would advise paper backed veneer..It is easier to apply but is also quite a bit thinner.You will want to edgeband the edges before laying on the face.They sell rolls of edgbanding that are 15/16" wide and will need to be trimmed before applying the face veneer.This can be done with a trimmer that can be had for under $20 or a trim router with a flush trim bit.I would suggest the manual trimmer for a novice.Not because a router is hard for a novice to use but because you will be running it donwn a 3/4" edge and any tipping will leave a divit in the wood.

    Edgebanding can be bought with a pressure sensitive glue already applied or a hot melt glue that can be ironed on.I would suggest the iron on.If you get off line with the other your screwed

    When trimming you should watch the runout on the grain and always do "downhill" with the grain.

    I always used raw veneer with rabbit hide glue but like stated about it's probably not for beginners and takes specialized tools.You can also apply raw veneer using pva glue by rolling it ion the veneer and the substrate,letting it dry and them ironing it on.The heat reactivates the glue.

    Figure out which way sounds best to you and post back.I can give you a lot more help once you figure out what you will use.

    I would suggest paper backed and you can buy different widths of bookmatched sheets making your life easier.

  • 11 years ago

    I've had good success with PVA glue applied, allowed to dry, and then ironed on. Now I use hot hide glue-- it's more exciting. ;-)

    If I had to do do a whole kitchen's worth of cabinets I'd set up a vacuum veneer press. See JoeWoodworker.com for how to do it for a reasonable price.

    I've never seen veneer applied with pressure sensitive adhesive that stayed stuck for more than a few years. Wouldn't touch the stuff. Plus, it stinks. Plus, you only get one shot at laying your veneer in the right place. This is a case where the thing that seems as if it might be the easiest is actually the hardest.

    I have not had success with commercial edge banding, either put on myself or on purchased cabinets. It seems to perpetually be falling off or getting damaged in ugly ways, so I don't do that any more, using instead solid wood ~1/4" thick on the edges. That way every nick at the edge doesn't show the substrate. In either event I've had the most success trimming with a block plane. Knives like to follow the grain and lead you astray, power tools are overkill and way too easy to go wrong with. A plane is quick and gives you precise control for a cut that needs to be right within a couple thousandth's of an inch.

    Remember you need to treat both sides of any substrate the same, lest you end up with a potato chip. You don't need to use your fanciest face veneer on the back side, but you need to put a layer on the back if you put one on the front.

    Veneering solid substrates is tricky, because you need to compensate for differential wood movement. Traditionally on a solid core one would lay one veneer at 45 degree angle to the grain before the finish veneer. You will see this referred to as crossbanding in your reading. You may want to consider a plywood core instead, or, depending on the application, MDF. I'd use MDF for a table top, but not for a cabinet door due to the weight. There is also a "combination core" plywood available that has MDF faces on a plywood core that might be the best of both worlds for veneer applications.

    Agree with the others that paperbacked is easy. With a press, raw veneer isn't very hard (and can be had significantly thicker).

    There are many excellent books and videos available

  • 11 years ago

    I knew I'd getting answers, but this is a wealth of information! Thank you all.

    I already own the cabinet doors and drawer fronts. Luckily, I think, these won't be receiving a lot of use at all.

    Not to be obtuse, but PVA is what?

    I think veneer is a flash of brilliance, vs. buying all the doors/drawers over again in the preferred wood. Particularly since they're not getting heavy usage.

    I'll continue reading. I'll have more questions, I'm certain, as I go!

    Thanks again.

  • 11 years ago

    PVA is polyvinyl acetate glue. Classic Titebond would be my choice for this application.

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    +1 on the original titebond.I think a paper backed veneer with pva ironed on would be the most foolproof way for a novice to get good results.I too,usually apply a 1/4" solid wood for edgeing but you can't do that with existing door sizes.I have had good luck with the iron on edgebanding with the hot melt glue.You just have to buy a quality product and make sure you get it hot enough without scorching the veneer.

  • 11 years ago

    Apologies for crashing your thread, CEFreeman. If any of you can give me any feedback on my related idea, I'd be very grateful:

    http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3048986/zebrawood-veneer-over-laminate-countertop