It varies from plant to plant. I think that Optimara Guide (I posted a link) shows you the parts of the flower. The peduncles (stalks) may be sturdy, but the blossoms will still droop if the pedicels won't support them.

That was a big complaint about many of the large, full doubles - they drooped. Arctic Frost, for instance, gets three blooms per stem. I find that they seem to do okay until all three come out and then it can't support them. The bloom stalks are very thick but the pedicels are thin.

I find the whole blossom stem to be thin on Yukako.

I have never grown it, but one that I've seen many complaints about is Louisiana Lullabye. Someone said they grew elevated so you could see them hanging down. Fredette's Sweet Jenny doesn't hold them up very well but it gets a lot of them and I like it anyway. I get sick of semidouble stars.

Diana in PA

Diana, thank you! They started off fine until the second bloom came and that was it they flopped over. It doesn't bother me that they do this just wondered why. I had to look all of these up quick to see them. All beautiful in there own way. I noticed there are a lot of semi double stars. While they are really nice, I can see why you would get sick of them.

Very pretty plant.. droops and all. ;-) I have several that droop and I love the variety it gives! :-)

Thank you shihtzu4su. I always love seeing yours. :) I'm amazed by all the differences in every plant. I like to look at everyone's on here(good ideas for future orders).

Well "sick" maybe wasn't the best choice of words, but they don't seem to have the doubles like Fredette's Sweet Jenny any more. Just those stars like Lyon's keeps pumping out. :) Heck lots of plants droop and we think it's okay. Maybe we can stand it in a few violets if they can't get them to hold up the full doubles. I like the ones that stand up nice above the foliage too. (And I don't want a 4" blossom personally....I have some that are about 3" and that's big enough.)

Diana

Diana- I agree I like them too. I knew what you meant about "sick". :) I looked up the Fredettes Sweet Jenny and it's gorgeous. Do you have one?

ooo - i looked it up too! yes its amazin!

This is my Red Summit it does the same thing but I love it. Velleta

Joanne- thank you! What about the light source? You have me curious.

yesim curious too! :)

and i just had to share this pic of my favorite droopy stem stalk plant. :) its a noid... but i think its actually my favorite. i love how it reminds me of rhe beach... somehow with that color blue and how filmy and frothy the double blooms look all together... i dunno. i just love it. ;)

Shihtzu4su- beautiful! I love the coloring on it. Reminds me of lilacs :)

Pretty! I love light blue!

Su, That is a beautiful plant and photo. It has a classic look of some of the vintage violets. It reminds me of Wisteria. Sometimes, it is hard to tell the blue color from the photo, Wisteria is more of a periwinkle than the lilac color of yours. But it could be the photo. Wisteria also has thinner, less hairy leaves than many violets, with leaves gracefully pointed on the ends. And grows in a rosette or whorl. So, yours could be something similar to Wisteria.

Getting back to blooms coming out of the sides, on longer tendrils, or standing upright, the species seemed to have blooms coming out on the sides.

The Lyon's company has violets that are easy to grow and fast-growing. Good for beginners or anyone. They often remind me of Optimara. Lyon's and Optimara all got their start at the same time and shared breeding materials. Some Optimaras have been cultivated primarily for the flower spray display for retail sale. Most customers don't keep them long enough to bother about the growth pattern of the leaves. However, a collector who keeps them alive for longer than a first bloom cycle will be rewarded. The plants can be groomed into shape. Future bloom cycles are just as floriferous or even more so.

Optimaras can be readily bought in retail stores. A good next step is to purchase some of the Lyon's own hybrids from their catalogue. A newbie can try growing out a few starter plants. Then once satisfaction and success is achieved, can branch out to growing from leaves.

The more advanced grower might want to try the more complicated plants.

Anyway, that was how I was mentored, it worked well for many in our starter office club. If a person has the joy and surprise of a sturdy Lyon's plant bursting into bloom, producing something they have not seen in stores, it teaches them a lot about caring for plants. Then the next step is learning about grooming. If the plant naturally grows in a rosette pattern, it is easier to learn.

The purples, violets and light blue colors seem to be the easiest for beginners to learn from and build confidence.

Lyon's, like Optimara, has many different blossom types to choose from and also foliage growth patterns. Sometimes, it is a matter of personal preference. Both have their place in a collection.

Personally, I find the Rob's and Ma's to be real challenges and make me feel like a beginner all over again.

Joanne

Tell me if I'm posting too much! I don't want to steal anyone's thread!! :-] I just had to answer the question about color... these are the prettiest blue I've ever seen. In some lights it actually looks BLUE BLUE... but in other light it does have a tiny bit of a purplish hue. I wondered about Wisteria for this one too, but isn't wisteria red backed? I also wondered about Opt. Acadia... but it just doesn't match the foliage I've seen in pics. Another idea I just had is "Rodeo Country"... but the growth isn't quite as compact as pics I've seen of that one. Another option is "cool Blue".. but this one is definitely NOT a Semi Mini! It's one of the biggest ones I have! lol. any ideas? :-)

I might add that when I picked it up at a yard sale a year ago, it was in a 5" pot, and there were probably 5 crowns all squashed together! I divided it and blessed several other people with plants.... all for $3. ;-) It has never offered to sucker again... I'm not sure why it suckered so badly to start with!

Shihtzu4su- your not posting too much. I think it's nice when you can go from one topic to another, helps everybody out. It's still very pretty in that lighting too! :)

Joanne- that's good base information especially for a newbie like me. Now how does lighting effect the bloom stems? You mentioned it earlier about it being another topic

I just visited John Brownlie (the hybridizer) yetserday, and blossoms that don't stand up seem to be a pet peeve of his - he stressed several times, that in hybridizing, if you are crossing for double blossoms, to choose plants that have strong blossom stems.

Now that's talking about those huge ruffly blooms that plop over onto the foliage because they are too heavy.

I've read (not tried) that stronger light can cause the blossom stems to be shorter and sturdier. (i suppose you have to find that sweet spot of lighting that is just enough for shorter bloom stems, but not too much on the foliage....)

Froeschli- I think for some people the ones that stand up look tidier or more uniform. that's interesting about the light. Right above that particular plant I have a CFL on for about 12 hours a day to help with the lighting. Has helped it grow a lot since I got it.

Holtkamp and Lyons did not start at the same time and share hybridizing materials. I would have to do research but Lyons was an early U.S. hybridizer (late 40's, early 50's beginning perhaps?) and Holtkamp was a German company. They may have info on the site.

When Holtkamp introduced their plants to the U.S. market they refused to register them so, of course, the U.S. hybridizers couldn't use them to cross and register with the AVSA. I remember the AVSA was miffed, both by the lack of registration and Holtkamp's mass marketing of them in supermarkets but the Rhapsodies were so popular that it didn't matter. They were new and pretty and easily obtainable. They were named back then - Elfriede, Violetta,,Gigi, Dolly, etc. Some names were reused but some have just vanished. I think Holtkamp may have lost some of their records.

Wisteria is more purple, not blue. It's a nice plant but I don't know what it might be. Sometimes we just have to decide to grow a noid.Name it My Blue Who or something but don't trade it that way :)

Karen,
It was on Arctic Frost where I noticed that it didn't much matter how strong the peduncles were if the pedicels were weak. That has bloomstalks like tree trunks but it still can't hold up all 3 blooms on the stem. I am all for hybridizers going for better ones but if it means never having ruffled doubles at all.... (And I don't like some of those new ones that look like hairballs)

Some of the Optimara "minis" (I have no idea what they are) bloom in a spray configuration. I'm sure that is not the right term.

Fredette's Sweet Jenny - Some day I'll have to learn to do a photo here. Last time I tried it took forever and didn't work.

https://flic.kr/p/o8EN6R

Diana in PA

Diana- your plants are wonderful. I have Witch Doctor too and it's just starting to push up buds, can't wait! Your cat is adorable!!

Hi, Diana,

The snippet of history you provided above is fascinating! It sounds as though the AVSA is a sort of regulatory agency. If Holtkamp knew from the get-go they were going commercial, then they certainly did not need the "help" of a newly formed AVSA trying to inhibit their growth and determination to make violets accessible to everyone. Makes one wonder if the purpose of the AVSA is to promote innovation in the world of violets, or inhibit commercialization. When they inhibit commercialism, they also inhibit professionalism. Many people have tried to get into the business of growing and selling violets but eventually gave it up as not a successful venture.

If it was not for Optimara, we would not have stand up blooms or sticktite flowers or plants that bloom in dim indoor light or can bloom in office light.

So, what would be the advantages, if any, of belonging to the AVSA? It doesn't seem to change much, not the magazine, not the articles, and not the conventions. That is, aside from being able to get slight discounts on their own products? I guess my point is, do they truly encourage development of the violet in a scientific way? Or just keep everything at a mom and pop level? Maybe I am in a bad mood, but I just don't "get" the point of showing plants that have to look a certain way and only get torn apart the moment the blue ribbon is won. It goes against nature. Or having artificially restrictive rules for judging. Maybe it is just not my thing. No beauty pageants for my violets.

I have not gone to a national convention, I would go primarily to buy violets in person and not have to mail order all the time.

I did get to a local club show and sale. Out here, Optimara is the name of the game, most of the plants offered for sale were Optimaras in bloom. Of the plants offered from other hybridizers, there was not much diversity and many were mislabeled. Out here, people are just not that fussy about getting the name correct or having a diversity to choose from. I did not go to the show except to glance quickly at the winners. Probably very different from the large east coast or national conventions.

Anyway, that is why I value this forum so much, and others that are similar to read.

Joanne

Su, Nah, someone's gotta post and keep the conversation going! Around here, we don't worry too much about anyone owning a thread. It is all good.

Joanne

Karin, How cool, to be able to drop by and visit with the Brownlie's. Or Mr. Brownlie. I have never grown a Brownlie violet. Maybe I should order a couple from Lyon's the next time I place an order.to learn about them. The Lyon's catalogue shows only one blossom and one leaf, so it is not possible to know what the entire plant looks like.

Joanne

Wow, Diana's remarks that Optimara and AVSA were originally not affiliated and maybe were at odds with each other rings a faint memory bell. Now that I am interested in violets in general, other than Optimaras, that for years, were the only violets I raised, this topic has really got my wheels turning!

The AVSA says they: provide a convenient association for people interested in African violets

• stimulate interest in propagation and culture of African violets
• promote distribution of all varieties and species among members and others interested in growing them
• publish reliable, practical information about plants and the organizatio

quick note.. diana, i love the Ness crinkle blue, and Red sea coral, and sweet jenny

violets in your pics! thanks for posting that link. :)

Joanne- i totally agree with your thoughts about shows and AVSA. it goes along with my feelings about the AKC. but i wont dive into all that here. thanks for posting! i love your loooooong posts. ;)

Yes, that was what came to mind, exactly. I know from my friends who bred cats and dogs that often the end result is for the human appeal, not the health or the good of the animal. Dachsunds are a case in point. I got a little carried away last night. If Diana says I am all wet, then I will take down the post.

Joanne

Yeah, I keep getting asked if I am an avsa member, or avsc, or gesneriad society..... It all adds up. So not yet.

Turns out my current club has some "political issues" (and there I thought we were all well removed from high school, but you can't tell from the popularity games and he-said-she-saids.... ). I couldn't really tell in the first four months, so I guess there is hope. Still, I'll be joining the other club in my area as well. Quieter people, but less games and pretense, I hope.

I'll consider avsa and avsc when I either become serious about hybridizing or showing. But for now, I, like Joanne, don't see much merit in joining.

It was the optimaras in the stores that introduced me to african violets. This forum that has taught me how to grow them better. I never ever heard from the avsa, so what exactly do they do for publicity? At least avsc replies to comments on their facebook page...

Karin

Hi Karin,

Thanks for your feedback and opinion. Yes, the various memberships get pricey, especially when also buying plants and paying for shipping.

I think the AVSC is a big deal! At least based on what I can glean from reading on line.

You might not hear about the AVSA as much because you are in Canada, where they don't reach out too much. However, you have a point, they do seem rather low-key about advertising. That might be changing.

I do read their magazine, it provides a forum for Dr Rob and Jeff Smith, and Joyce Stork, among others, to publish advice.

Joanne

Love of Bostons,

Karin addressed light source.

In general, leaves will reach for the light and blooms will turn towards the source. With some plants, if grown under lights, they will grow out flat. This can be seen on the video pedants by Annie, on her FB page, All About African Violets. She is trying to grow symmetrical, flat plants.

In my experience, when plants are grown in window light where the light comes in from every angle, when the plants are older and mature, the leaves tend to drape downward.

This is not for all violets, it depends on the plant itself.

It does not seem to affect Optimaras as much except for the older plants.

The plants are living things and will gradually adapt their shape to the light source. In your environment, you might not ever see this draping effect.

Joanne

Diana is correct, Wisteria is light purple with tips of the petals slightly darker. It is very natural looking with its irregularly shaped blossoms with subtle shading. The petioles are elongated, the blooms come out the sides. It is graceful. The dark green foliage is a nice color and shapes well. Lilac Tenderness, a Russian, formerly Lavender Tenderness, is a little similar. It is more of a pinky-light purple than a blue-purple shade. The bloom is star shaped with deeper color tipping on the edges. The foliage is somewhat messy looking. It just bloomed today.

Here, Sea Drift just bloomed, raised from a leaf. Consistent deep blue color, pendant flowers. Unusual wavy foliage. Ness Ruffled Skies just bloomed again, tends to be slightly pendant, Foliage is tidy. Caribbean Blue first bloom, color is true. Foliage shapes into an open rosette. Hot Foot first bloom. Much prettier than I expected. Fully double dusty rose with wide raspberry band, light Geneva edge, ruffled. Good contrast to dark foliage. Needs to shape itself more before I can evaluate the shape.

Genetic Gem and Hand Picked both bloomed today. They are similar. Genetic Gem is deeper in tones on the leaves (mosaic) and bloom (light, bright pink.) Hand Picked is like a more pastel version of Genetic Gem.

On the AVSA website there is a flower labelled Mermaid's Kiss that looks a lot like the flower on Wisteria, color and shape. However, I thought Mermaid's Kiss was a Russian bright pink and green by K. Morev.

Joanne

Beautiful pix! Just love that eye candy! Food for the soul!!!!

As far as droopy flower stalks, I have had some like that in the past. Then it seems Rhapsodie was promoting flowers looking like a bouquet,,,held up above the foliage!!!!!

Gigi was one of my favorites. Anybody have her? And the Ballet series was great. How about Athena!!!

Oh here I go again,,,I just can't stay off of Memory Lane! Sorry.

Just wanted to say that maybe some stalks will droop and others won't. Maybe yours is an older one that will just be droopy and that's that! But she is beautiful, I see why you love her.

And Su,,,,no one posts too much! lol I enjoy reading yours and everyone elses posts! Rosie

Yes, Rosie, exactly, Rhapsodies were developed to have short, thick stalks to hold the flowers up straight. So we all got used to that!

Joanne

Exactly,,,,and we don't remember what it was like with the sort of first violets! It was a way of life, wasn't it??? haha! Rosie

No, not unless we raise vintage. I did not grow violets back then, except for purple, so the "vintage" are new to me. Glad I can capture the times I had missed!

Joanne

Rosie, I had a lot of the early Rhapsodies. I think I had Gigi. I know I had Violetta which was nice and Claudia which was a single clear pink, not today's Claudia. We had Elfriede because there was a lady at our church named Elfriede too and we joked about it. I think that would have made it 60's.

They were good plants. I don't really remember what I had but I'm sure I got from my mother who had all named ones, including Lyons and Tinari. It's surprising but I don't think Holtkamp has photos of those early Rhapsodies either. They didn't register them. The AVSA was "sniffy" about them but it didn't matter ;) They were nicer and more available than the registered ones and people liked those "bouquets" of flowers that lasted and didn't fall off. They came with names too. What not to love?

I don't really like it that they have new registered ones that drop and you don't know it (until you grow them and then they drop). I can tolerate it in a few vintage ones. OTOH, Firebird is getting on my nerves (again).

Diana

Oh Diana! you have Firebird?????? The vintage one????? I don't know what the new version is all about. I am looking for a couple leaves of the original! She was one of my very favorites and is on my vintage want list! What is she doing to make you mad? Geeze are these kids or plants?? Is there really a difference? lol

I also had Elfriede and I did like her. A beautiful purple. Oh heck, I never owned a violet I didn't like,,,,,AND I never saw a violet I didn't want to own !!! haha lol

You know,,,it's funny but I remember shopping in the dimestores and that is all there was,,,,named varieties. Rhapsodie along side of Lyon along side of whomever's violets. Just all mixed up together,,,,no separateness (gee is that even a word?) And I bought as many as I could.

I only mail ordered once. And when I got the plants I was disappointed. They were small for the price I paid. And I could have gone (here we go again!) to the dimestore and gotten full size plants with loads of flowers for 99 cents! And I didn't have to pay shipping either!

You know there has been a lot of reference to mainly having purple violets back in the day. I have to differ. Yes, the purple was out there alot, but I was happily lost in the world of "omg look at that! I have never seen a color, leaf, flower shape etc,,,. like that! Gotta have it!" Maybe I just lived in a lucky section of Michigan, I don't know. But I loved it. And that love stuck with me til now.

And when I got a job (in the 80's) at a greenhouse that grew violets and streps (and he had a lot of interesting other plants that were "different". Things you couldn't find any other place) I thought I died and went to heaven! I had been going to that greenhouse since the 70's. Sadly several years later, violets were no longer in demand the way they had been. Just past the turn of the century he had finally converted to bedding plants (yawn!!!) and very few violets. He has not been open for many years. Ahhh my favorite street is Memory Lane !!!!

I think I just got wayyy off topic. So sorry!

But speaking of vintage, I finally have Seafoam! And I may have an iron in the fire for White Madonna! Oh happy day!!!! Rosie

PS. Don't get me wrong I am also in love with the new up to date violets also!

Seems that Optimara is offering many of their older, possibly vintage varieties now, at least in my "neck of the woods." Along with some newer ones. Maybe they realize there is a request for them. My local stores have a selection. Although they are locally grown, Optimara probably tells them what to grow each year. My local Trader Joe's now has Angelica and several other light pink pansies, and a variety of light orchid and light purple pansies. Along with what is possibly Ingrid and a very good Cora that is not smudgy but has a wide, well defined white border. Along with some of the newer blue ink color and white ones, and several of Hiroshige. I don't know how it works, if the Optimara company tells the violet farm to grow 50% purples, reds, and bright pinks, and the remaining allotment 10% each of the newer ones, plus some of the more unusual ones. I was surprised they had what seems to be Ingrid. They had some nicer wine-reds other than the red pansies that are sort of average. And maybe five different styles of dark purple. I usually just get Wisconsin II because people seem to like that one. They have a ton of MyDelight this year. Last year, they just had a few. So it seems they have decided to keep that in their line. I have a Tradition or Romance, not sure how, when or why I got it, but it must have been last year at TJ's. Just a fluke. I have not encountered newer varieties with flowers that fall off yet. Joanne

Geeze,,,I wish I had a Trader Joe's somewhere around here, but we don't. It is Lowe's and Meijer's. But that's ok,,,well sort of,,,,at least I get to hear about what you and others can get! (heavy sigh) <:(

I do have a Tradition but she is struggling but looking better from the cold furnace outage. She may make it after all. I hope so. I got her at Meijer last fall. Haven't even had her that long. But she is one of the lucky ones. Rosie

Hi, I don't know if Lowe's gets their violets directly from the Optimara company in TN or if they have local growers. Where I live, it seems that most of the Optimaras are grown locally, probably because of the state agricultural regulations and restrictions about importing from other states and because they can grow outdoors easily. I am just guessing. Our AV club is supposed to take a field trip to one of these AV farms, so if that ever happens, I can find out more. I never used to pay too much attention to what the stores offer until being active on this forum. Trader Joe's seems to specialize in their own products or suppliers that are local. For example, the other local grocery stores also might have similar items, but the prices are a lot more and the selection is more average rather than unusual. Trader Joe's has a lot of orchids, also, and other plants and flowers. They get in a fresh shipment every day of various flowering plants. Not always AVs, though. Most that I get are going to be resold, but I enjoy them for a few weeks. Ironically, most of my own plants are at the "lettuce" stage. About the only thing blooming are the TJ's violets. They also grow fast once I get them home.

When I lived in other states in the northeast, I was not so lucky, but I was also not into AVs at the time. Maybe if they were more plentiful, I would have paid more attention. Joanne

Joanne you're right,,it is harder when they are not plentiful. Makes it hard to come up with "eye candy"! Next time I see the vendor unpacking plants at Meijer I am going to ask her where do the violets come from. She is pretty nice.

Do you mind me asking where you resell your violets? When the 2 stores do have violets I try to buy ones with the most leaves and/or possibly suckers Those are my trading power if anyone should ever want to trade. If it wasn't for the trades on this forum I would not have the variety I have! Course everything is just a leaf at this stage. But that is ok. I can't wait for the first little leaves to push through!!!! Yay!!!! Rosie

Oh, I just meat for my African Violet Club. It has sales to the public twice a year. It is usually held at a flower show with a lot of other flower or plant clubs also selling their plants. So there is a lot of competition for customers. From our AV club, we are all supposed to be raising plants to sell to the public for these sales. But it is hard to have a lot of plants in bloom for late May, as they are usually just coming into bloom. So we end up buying a lot of Optimaras because the public prefers blooming plants. The idea is to promote interest in African Violets and to make a little money for the club. I suppose, it is for the club to have an activity to do together also. Our location is too far away for all the fancy east coast and midwest vendors to come out here. At least, I have not seen them come out here, so it is up to us club members to grow some violets. I enjoy the growing process, so that's what I do. Others prefer to raise show plants and compete in shows. Sometimes we have both a show and a sale. J

I think that is nice! I understand buying them ahead of time. After all we can't guarantee with any certainty when we can get them to bloom can we?!?!

It is nice that you have a group that loves AV's. Rosie

It is a lot of work. I think I will "retire" after this year. What was supposed to be a "relaxing hobby" has become like another part time job. J

Oh Joanne, you are just going to retire from the club,,,,,not from violets right? Maybe if you just got back to violets at your own pace like most of us you would feel a little better about violets!

Usually groups do become labor intensive. I have belonged to various groups in my lifetime and I always start out real enthusiastic, and then it seems to become too much work and not enough fun. Maybe I should be glad I just march to my own drum in my own time instead of always wishing I had a local group. I am definitly gonna rethink this!

Hope you stay "into" violets though! Rosie

Hi Rosie,

Thanks for your comments! It is just a hobby that sometimes builds up and other times, slows down. Right now I have been in a growth mode as I learn more about the growing and selling process and different varieties. But it is just temporary. A lot of people go through cycles with this hobby. Some are long-termers. I just wanted to try it for a couple of years. I will always have some around. I just won't be as active with growing for a club. Joanne

Oh good,,,,,I would hate it if you got "out" of violets and we didn't get to talk to you here anymore!!! It does have it's cycles though. I do understand that. Everything seems to have it's own ebb and flow! Rosie

yah - Joanne, i really could see that the whole growing to sell thing could be really stressful. it intrigues me to sell my extras on ebay... but im not sure if i could ship well enough to satisfy people. i dont have room to keep all the extras and i like the thought of selling so i can put that money back into my violets.

but anyhow! i feel like ive missed lots of discussions on here lately! we are homeward bound tomorrow. oh and if anyone else wants to know where to buy African Violets in Lancaster PA... go to Esbenshades Greenhouse! :) they even told me that they will be getting in some minis in a few weeks. sigh. just missed them. i did pick up four there though! i believe that they are all optimara. :) red, pink, blue, and a white/pink. they need some tlc... which i can handle. ;)

i also found a maidenhair fern which i had been looking for FOR. EVER. ;)

oh Joan - just reading back posts here! trader joe?? i didnt know they had violets! hmm. gonna have to remember that. did you get the one that might have been ingrid?? i love that one!

rosie, dont apologize for your trips down memory lane! ;) i enjoy hearing the history behind the journeys.

Hey Su, good to hear from you again! Hope you post pix of your new babies! Fern and all !!! Rosie

BTW - Joanne, I loved reading your descriptions... you are good at describing african violets! You make them all seem gorgeous just reading your description! Some of the AV seller websites could learn from you! ;-)

Whaaaaaat !!!!! You mean they aren't all gorgeous?????? Oh, I am living in a world of delusion!!!!! lol Rosie