Rosie, as I remember it (and I was really rather young then), when Holtkamp introduced the Rhapsodies, they did not register them. The AVSA was not happy about this and did not like them selling them mass market either but Holtkamp was a German company and did it anyway. These were the first sticktite singles. My old magazines had the Fischer ads too and they had different things and were always a little cheaper :)

Now this is speculation, but do you think some of this annoyance had something to do with wishing to hybridize with the Rhapsodies? I think to register, both parent plants must be registered.

People didn't care if they were registered. They thought they were pretty with those big bouquets of flowers and we could buy them without mail ordering sometimes (I am not really sure where mom got hers). They came with names then. When the states came out people liked it too, having a plant with your state name.

Karin, you may find something named the same thing but it is not the same thing as it was originally. For quite awhile I wondered if I was nuts about Rhapsodie Claudia as the descriptions didn't match my memory but then I found it listed in one of those vintage books from openlibrary. Just as Rosie says - it was a clear pink single; not these garish pinks like today. I grew that one a lot. I think I had Gigi too and I found a photo of my Violetta but it was a faded color print and I did not keep it. Now I wish I had. It was a nice plant. I know mom had Elfriede because there was a lady at the church named that and we would joke about it. She was German too. That was a nice violet also. (I am unlikely to have remembered the red ones...) I suppose this is early to mid-70's for me but I expect I got mine from mom so they may have been older. (I kept thinking I like a "clear pink" lol. Then I found that description and knew where I got that idea.)

I kind of lost touch with things so I don't know when Holtkamp made a sort of peace with the AVSA and started to register but somehow it still seems that it is not a real priority with them. We also see Optimaras being bashed in ways that we never see the plants of other hybridizers treated. I always grew my Rhapsodies right with my other ones which were straight from the AVSA listings. I never bought an unnamed plant until sometime in the late 80's or maybe early 90's so I had a good many years to compare Optimara with all those "better" ones.

I don't know why I can't remember more names of plants but it seems I can't. A few sound familiar but I can't say I remember them. I did have Pistachio and went looking for it but it is gone. I quit growing for awhile in the 80's and suddenly they had all vanished. I had pots with names but couldn't replace the plants. That was an eye-opener.

If you have your old magazines, you can see how many Honor Roll varieties have simply disappeared. These were not inferior plants. Why then?

Sometimes people wonder if they should have a backup. Well if you like it, yes. A leaf cup doesn't take much space.

Diana

Belisles had some older varieties listed but they went out a few years ago. That would have been the only place I would have known that might have had any.

I "switched over" to growing mostly vintage violets in 2011. I had a collection of about 200 vintage of all types and by many hybridizers. Then my town changed over their water supply, and changed the additives they were using in the water, and I lost almost all of my collection. I had a lot of vintage that were from other growers, and may be just about irreplaceable now. I was devastated. I have started trying to regrow my collection, and I have a few vintage, but it is slow going try to find them again, even though I sent out many of their leaves in Round Robins and individual trades. I try to find older versions of the Optimaras and Rhapsodies if I can; I believe they should be continued on as much as possible and not just let die out.

Wow, A girl after my own heart! Your last sentence says it all. But I am soooo sorry you lost your collection! I hope you are able to find a lot of your vintage again. Maybe those tuned into this thread will be able to help you. One never knows!!!! Good luck! Rosie

I am sorry you lost your collection too, Sue. Although they say you may share it and get it back somehow t does not seem to work that way very often. Good luck with your search. Diana

Thanks, Rosie and Diana! I will continue my quest! Even if I can't rescue all the vintage, I will do my best to save as many as I can. Probably by next spring I will be in a position to share and trade some vintage if either of you are interested.

Diana, you said something referencing Optimara Violets being "bashed" but not the violets of other growers.

I got to thinking about that comment. I don't think it is so much the actual Optimara plant. I think it is the way Holtcamp did things and of course it "ripple effected" down to impact their violets. People can't punish a company, so they malign the product. And yet people still buy them. Look at the size of the Holtcamp/Optimara business now. They are flourishing. Even though people are unhappy with the way they do things! Go figure. One would think if enough people STOPPED buying the Optimaras that would at least send a message if not put a dent in sales to where they might listen. My only 2 issues with them is 1] no label in the plant and 2] "revising" the plants.

As I said before if a plant fades to obscurity because no one wants to grow it that is one thing. Let it die in peace. BUT don't make a subtle minor change that no one can really see and call it "Optimara Thing ll". Give it a new name and go on with business.

I posted in another thread about my Rhapsodie Evelyn. Bought her from Lowe's maybe 2 months ago and she (of course) only had a couple blooms left and looked not so great. BUT she had a white label that said Evelyn! So I bought her. Now she is blooming nicely. And she lookes like the photo on the Opt. site. I am really happy. Am posting a pix (not my personal pix) just so you can kinda see what she looks like. I don't have her on a wick yet. Too many plants, not enough containers! darn!

Rhapsodie Evelyn/ Year Introduced; 1987/ Year revised; 2004/AVSA registration #6612---Rosie

I thought I could keep editing the original list of the Rhapsodies but I guess after a while you can't. So here is the full information about R. Evelyn.

Variety Number: 17/Series: Rhapsodie/Pot Size: 4-inch large standard/Bloom Type: Single/Bloom Color: Blue/Leaf Type: Plain/Leaf Color: Dark green, red reverse leaf/Year Introduced: 1987/Year Revised: 2004/AVSA Registration Number: 6612/Patent Number: 4154.

Maybe every so often I will re copy the original list. But for now.....Rosie

Rosie, I too haven't exactly liked some of the changes but then Optimara is a large company and Burpees can make a tomato "improved." The AVSA won't let them do that with the violets so it's I and II. I may be wrong but it looks like maybe Lyons does it and just names them something different and then you don't know which is better or much different. I was so happy when someone on another group said they were all looking alike because I had been thinking that for quite awhile. At least Optimara says it is supposed to be better in some way (like the tomato :)
Maybe some of it started with the company but in other cases, it just seems like you get a sticker for badmouthing some perfectly nice plants. I don't think some of those people know much at all about Holtkamp and Optimara. They just have some idea that they would be slumming to grow R. Cora or something. Lyon's has some nice things but has some really terrible foliage too. Also you will learn a heck of a lot with Lowe's Optimaras :) (I never did see thrips from there and the ones at my store are from Nashville. I figure you might as well practice on those and have some nice plants rather than spend $50 to a "better" place where you might well lose that plant just as easily.

Someone was insisting that we had to say "Rhapsodie Cora NOID." Is that stupid? Do you have Rhapsodie Cora or do you have a plant with no id? Can you possibly have both in one? Now that person hybridizes and someone got one of his that wasn't what it was supposed to be. Was it a noid? Oh no. He says, well it is not Smurf's dingy mushroom, instead you have the rare Smurf's shiny pebble! (I did change a few names there...) However Optimara may not identify their hybrids.

And people were claiming they couldn't tell Millennia from Rita so I got Millennia from SG but I think I found Rita at Lowe's and they are nothing alike, especially the leaves. You'd have to be blind to confuse them. Millennia is one they fooled with, BTW. Oh well. Lyon's go off too. I had a great Iceberg and I got leaves last year and couldn't get one that didn't birth mark from them. I have the old photo of it looking white with the thin blue ruffled edge and can't find that any more. At least Millennia is presentable. I don't think I've gotten a Spectacular yet that hasn't birth marked either. Still working on that one. I think somehow it just became fashionable not to grow Optimaras - that you would graduate to better plants that often would not grow as well and generally cost more. If you show, it is true that many Optimaras aren't great show plants, but a great many people don't show. Rhapsodie Clementine is a very nice plant and we can tell O. Modesty whenever we see it. You may buy your leaves from SG and be sure of your name also. I can't hang around Lowe's so I order once in awhile. I even sold a few along with something else. I was surprised that people wanted the Optimaras.

Well I rattled on too long and do have other ones. Still you will find different strains in other varieties too. We expect Optimara to all look alike but I needed to replace Rosie Ruffles and found quite an assortment on eBay that all looked rather different.

Holtkamp sells plants in thousands of retail stores nationwide. in 2010, it was estimated that Holtkamp sold 70% of 22 million African Violets sold annually in the US.

Holtkamp specialized in producing plants that would survive trucking nationwide without dropping their blooms. They are the knockout (roses) of the African Violet world.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2010-11-22-africanviolets22_ST_N.htm

They have recently begun to produce plants that will appeal to more "refined" African Violet sensibilities. I have some of these, ... but also will grow the occasional Cora, Rita, Susie, etc.

What is a "refined African Violet sensibility"? Wonder if I have it! lol Rosie

I do not have it, Rosie. I liked the original ones and I like Chico and Michelle and O. Texas and Degas is a very good bloomer. Modesty is a very nice plant.Nancy Robitaille liked O. Ontario very much and she was a judge.

If you develop refined African violet sensibility, I do not know that we can communicate any more. I sold a Cora along with Ness' Crinkle Blue and the woman told me how beautiful it was (and also Clementine). I am glad they are doing well for her. I think maybe the Ness is just a little slow. Maybe "refined" means they die faster?

Diana

That article is so-so, clearly written by someone who doesn't know anything about the plants. It is almost as bad as when they reported on Ruger stock and would call it "Sturm" (company is Sturm-Ruger but nobody calls the guns 'Sturms'). No, Ralph Robinson is not likely to praise Optimara...

Holtkamp did introduce the first sticktite singles which was a terrific leap forward in hybridizing. Some of you may be fine with a roomful of droppers, but the rest of you try it and then you may appreciate the Holtkamps a little anyway. Grow a dozen of Happy Harold. Diana

Diana, I am with you. Agree 100%. Those who trash-talk Optimara/Holtkamp in favor of more refined AV sensibility are not really serious AV growers for the sake of growing AVs but are the fashionistas of the AV world. Quick to jump on every new trend and fad. And happy to say they spent oodles of money on ebay to get RS-Zebra Butt. Sorry, but in my opinion the commercialism of Lyon's is no different than Optimara's great marketing. I am not a Lyon's fan - they produce hundreds of hybrids with new names every year, and often I can't tell the difference between 10 of them. But everyone is trying to make a living and I don't begrudge anyone their own way of selling and marketing. I just prefer Optimara, and don't mind the I, II, III versions.

LOL, RS-Zebra Butt. I may have seen it on FB. I have seen some strange ones and prices I consider pure madness (for a leaf). I'm glad you agree, Sue. Yes, they are trying to make a living and maybe they don't do everything just as I would like but then Lipton discontinued my tea too.

Now Lyon's is one that I used to feel more positive about and I'm not happy to say that I no longer get excited by theirs although I grow some old ones. I also think some of the negativity among the commercials is probably jealousy in a way. Holtkamp did not go along with the crowd and has been very successful. I do value our other hybridizers too but just get tired of hearing Optimara bashed. They have brought violets to so many people and most of them are good ones. Then the person is excited about violets and comes to a group and is made to feel like they have to apologize or call Rhapsodie Cora a noid.

I was wondering what someone would consider a more refined violet anyway. I don't think anybody ever gave me an example. Now I will concede that there are better minis and semis than the Optimaras. Some are interesting but overall you can find a lot of other hybridizers with something you may like better in those sizes. In standards there are some with really terrible foliage out there.

Diana

No one said to grow only Optimaras. Just quit talking like they were second-class violets. Optimara violets aren't "perfect." I don't show but I would say maybe only a few of them might make good show plants. Maybe somebody else can chime in on that. However for the person who doesn't show, they offer a lot. A good many of them don't require artificial light for one thing.

Well if you like Lyon's blues, I can't say much. I have a lot of blues and I don't think Lyon's usually makes the cut there. Now there is Optimara Yellowstone and Optimara Texas and Rhapsodie Clementine and Optimara Manitoba and some very nice darker ones like Evelyn there and Kentucky and Optimara EverBeautiful and O. Modesty. Sometimes it is hard to say if they are blue or purple but I have those all but Kentucky and Evelyn and I think I had Kentucky - whatever I had was more blue. Then there are my other blues, including the Russians. Not every Optimara forms the bouquet any more. I forgot O. Hiroshige which can change from white to blue with the temps and I don't mind at all. This is a fun one.

We figured out that sometimes Lyon's says "show foliage" for a reason since otherwise some of it is hardly presentable. They did a lot of concentrating on blossoms. Some is okay but not much is outstanding. Private Dancer is just a lovely plant though. I've no idea if it shows well (and we don't think it's blue either; the Arctic Frosts that went off are more blue).

I don't have much experience with them, but Pat Hancock's Buckeyes seem to grow more in a show type pattern. Are they more refined? Maybe, for some plants have been so deadly dull that I have thrown them out. I like my plants to be interesting. I haven't pitched any of Pat's yet but I haven't really fallen in love with them although they are fine. Maybe I didn't meet the right one.

There is no way anyone else is going to have a market share close to Optimara. They have facilities in multiple countries and grow plants other than violets too. Probably Harster would be the closest and I doubt they come anywhere near. Everyone else is very small in comparison. Really there is no comparison. The others are not even selling to the same market most of the time.

Sometimes you see someone saying Optimara is losing customers by so and so and I think if every AVSA member quit buying from them, I doubt they would notice very much. They go along with the AVSA and have been very good to those of us who are interested in their plants and are serous growers, but we are likely not their major market share. Of course we give them publicity too, I suppose.

Diana

I used to hang around the Gardenweb Rose forum quite a bit and Knockout Roses were a common topic.

Knockout Roses made roses accessible for a large segment of America, in that Knockouts did not require the fungal spraying which is recommended for success with many other rose varieties. Previous to Knockout Roses entry into the market, I had inherited a bed of roses planted by a former tenant. These roses did well for awhile, but soon began to display the effects of Black Spot, a fungal disease which causes their leaves to drop, leaving you nothing but thorny stems in the garden. There are sprays and dusts that combat the disease, but many, including some in the apartment building I lived in, objected to the chemicals being used so close (adjacent) to the building's entry. So I swore off roses at that point.

Some years later I was working on the landscape at the house, and I needed something that would bloom through the summer, but that I wouldn't have to plant every year. All of my research seemed to suggest that roses were the answer, and that there was a particular type of rose that I was looking for. After years of hybridizing roses to the Hybrid Tea form, some rose hybridizers were beginning to focus upon disease resistance and hardiness. The Knockout Roses were one of the result of these efforts. American gardeners could grow them with nary a whiff of disease.

Americans pounced upon this new ability to grow roses and Knockouts sprang up everywhere. I ultimately planted some of the double reds and pinks myself. Meanwhile, some rose connoisseurs scorned the new roses as fodder for the masses, which diverted attention from other worthier cultivars. There's many a thread on the Gardenweb roses forum which discussed the value of Knockouts.

In the meantime, other disease resistant roses were bred. Dr. Griffith Buck hybridized roses which came to be grouped into a category known as "landscape roses", which were especially bred for success in the American Midwest. A collection of these roses, including Knockouts, has come to be subsequently known as Earthkind roses, because they don't require the spraying of chemicals for success in your garden.

With all that said, the fatal flaw in the Knockout rose series was shown during the past couple very cold winters. Knockouts turned out to be not as winter-hardy as they were thought to be. During those winters, I and others in the Midwest lost most many Knockouts (which in my case had grown into 6-7 foot diameter monster plants). Part of this year's gardening efforts was the replacement of some of my Knockouts with hardier Canadian roses (Champlain, etc.).

Optimaras win plenty of shows. Optimara's Space Violets and Artist Series have some especially fine plants, and there are other Optimara varieties which can be grown into show winners as well.

ASVA shows often have a separate awards category just for Optimara entries.

The African Violet community clearly understands the debt they owe to Optimara/Holtkamp.

I am sure there have been some fine Optimaras shown but it is not the rule. I have noticed that the Optimara award has been unclaimed quite a few times when I've looked at the list of winners. I did see Buckeye Cranberry Sparkler shown as a winner so often I was kind of tired of looking at it. Also winning the Optimara categories (where you can only enter, say a collection of Optimaras) is not quite like competing in another category, is it?

When I see people ask for suggestions for show, Optimara is not what is suggested. One thing at show (as I understand it), foliage is far more important than blossom. It should have some but that is secondary to very perfect foliage. That is why picking plants from lists chosen from show plants may not give a home grower the happiest results since some lovely plants may excel at blossom rather than foliage.

I have recently gotten my first Space violet. Why? They do seem like an lot of plant with not so much blossom although they are pretty. Well I guess I have two as I traded for a chimera of one.

I do hope that if I brought some scraggly thing to a show and it is the only one in some specialty category that they won't give it a prize (best Lyon's or whatever for I had some bad ones this year) but who knows ? I have seen some bad examples of plants in photos from shows but generally don't mention it because (a) I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and (b) I think they may not have had enough entries and encouraged people to enter what they had. Still sometimes I do hope that a newcomer doesn't think that is a good example of that particular plant. I know I always thought the ones in shows must be very good. Maybe I was just wrong all along.

Diana

Wow, I stayed off the computer for one day and look at all of the conversation that came up! Interesting.

Let me say again, I never met a violet YET that I didn't want a leaf from. I don't care who hybridized it, I don't care who holds the patent. I don't care if it comes with a tag (but it would be nice) I am more interested in the VIOLET. I don't care if it is Russian, English Spanish, Lyon, Optimara, Rob's, Violet Frathels or any of the other "owners" from way back or present. (get my point?).

Having read all of the above posts I am very sure that I don't have the dreaded disease "African Violet Sensibility." Whew. I was a little worried about that.

We all are going to have personal experience with a hybridizer. After all, we want, buy, sell, trade and propagate the very thing that they create. And somehow we are going to have a violet from the very company we bash. Because we trade, get a gift or just plain try for our own edification.

But guess what???? Violets are not perfect. They are not all created equal beyond the fact that they have leaves and flowers. Once we get them in our hot little hands, they are never going to be raised the same way as they were in the hands of their creator. EVERYONE has different conditions and we try to skew everything to grow successfully so we get the plant in the photo.

Guess what again? That is where the slightly off color, the more intense color, a flower that should have all white gets a blush of whatever every now and then, or maybe even a sport if you are very lucky happens! Because we all use different fertilizer, water ph etc., soil mixes, temp & humidity, techniques and oh I could go on.

For the most part, violets will look like what we expect. Or darn near close to it. But just because the flower color is not the "correct" shade of whatever doesn't mean it isn't THAT violet. Flower color as seen thru the eyes of everyone is subjective. No two people see the same exact shade. And photos don't show exact color either.

And it doesn't matter if you show or not. People who show groom a plant for months from plantlethood only to find out that it will not flower the way it should or something else happens to mess up a "show plant" may say "that must NOT be a leaf of "whatever". Doesn't mean it isn't the named leaf they started. Just means the violet is reacting to this person's conditions. Something happened in the growing process that changed something. And I may get a leaf right off that plant and it may have better or worse results!

Should I blame Rob? Optimara? Lyon? Frathel? Harsters? Tinari?. No I think we should just enjoy the plant for the fact it is a violet and not scrutinize the shade of flower etc too harshly.

Now before everyone jumps on me and says that I am not a serious grower, you are correct. To me a serious grower is more the show grower or the hybridizer. I am an amateur at best, no matter how long I have been growing. AND by the way, everything I ever post is my opinion and I am not out to change anyone's mind. I am just asking you to think about what I say. THEN you can discard it!

I expect a leaf of any plant to relatively "come true". If it is a hybridized variety I believe for the most part that they DO come true. But I think a lot of us severely tear apart every little thing in the violets growing. The first blooms may NOT be true blooms. I was taught that years ago. Wait for the second round (and I can't remember the reason for it). Maybe it is maturation of the violet as a whole. I don't know.

Many of us just grow for the love of growing a violet. But we want that perfection of color, leaf, length of petiole (hmmm little light problem?) right from the gitgo. And yes I want Chanticleer or Optimara whatever to look relatively like it should. But this is where I differ from the rest. If some of Chanticleer's pink flowers are a little off I can either cut them off and give strength to the remaining flowers and hope for better, adjust fertilizer or try something else. I don't wonder what is "wrong". OR I can just love her and hope the next blossoms are better. AND of course check my growing methods.

We all grow differently. We live in different parts of the country. For the most part violets are going to be consistant, but when they deviate we cannot crucify the hybridizer, no matter what name they go by! Assuming of course that they have propagated the violet thru enough generations for stability (or whatever they have to do nowadays).

In reading posts for a long time now, when something happens, we change our potting mix, our watering etc and expect INSTANT results. It takes a month at least before you will see a change for each thing you amend. And you should, in my opinion, change only one thing at a time. So to see results from 3 changes should take about 2-3 months! Many of us won't wait 2-3 DAYS before we change the next thing!

Optimara does take a beating, but they still keep ticking! And I still buy them and I won't be made to feel as though I grow an inferior violet! They are just as beautiful (remember, that is subjective!) to me as any other violet is to someone else.

sigh,,,,,but all I want is a name tag! lol Rosie

My goodness, but this is an interesting thread! So many good points from so many good growers.

May I say that I began my growing experience with the (unlabeled) plants available to me at big box stores and at some groceries - probably most were Optimara's - and I loved them. Some of them I was able to identify over time and research, and it was good enough for me to know what the "probably" were as I don't show. They were good plants; living and blooming under natural light and through out my long learning curve. As I discovered more about AV's on the web I began to crave adding some of the beauties I saw in photos - to find that not all were as forgiving as the NOIDS, for sure, but those that liked my conditions were so rewarding. And it was fun to be able to discuss a variety by name and compare, and fun to trade leaves and plantlets. Many more people are open to trades when you know what you have, than when you just say "it might be" such and such. Due to a colossal goof on my part, I lost many of my original collection and so now only have a few of the un-tagged plants I used to grow. But I have purchased and traded for some Optimara's these days and enjoy them. I don't know if I would say that it is just like a Knock-out rose is to rose growing (which I have been heavily invested in for a lot longer than AV's) but I can somewhat understand the correlation. At the same time, to me a Knock-out has no soul, no fragrance and lacks the essence of what I think of when I say "rose." That said, I do have a couple of them myself and for color and ease of care they can't be beat. But they will never take the place of one bloom from the old David Austin rose Gertrude Jekyll (for example) which can almost make me swoon with the pleasure it gives to my nose and my eyes. And so, too, can I say that a violet like Rosie's pictured Rhapsodie Evelyn is pretty, but it doesn't make me drool like some varieties do (i.e. many of the Russians.) But I would never presume to think that any violets I grew were 'better' or more valuable to grow than someone else's choices. After all, it's not which violets you grow...it's how well you grow what you've got, isn't it?

I've grown David Austin roses Eglantyne, Mary Rose, Sharifa Asma, Lichfield Angel, and Cottage Rose.

All looked and smelled glorious ... until they lost their foliage mid-season due to Black Spot.

I've decided to replace my currently leafless Sharifa Asma ... with disease resistant Dr. Buck's rose Quietness ...

Rosie, I think you may be a serious grower without being a show grower. What I believe is that the focus is just a bit different. You will not wish to disbud your plants for 9 months a year and foliage may well not be of primary importance to you. It doesn't mean you don't take them seriously. My standards may not be someone else's standards. If a plant is too far off and I think a better one is available, then I will try to get a better one. For I keep my plants if I like them. I don't do much in the way of trading around. A little now and then.

Some may know that I grew for many years and never had a unnamed plant in my collection. Never bought one from a store. I think it might have been in the late 80's when I had just rather stopped cold and then bought 3 or 4 at the supermarket. It never occurred to me that they might be named although now I know they get them from Canada so they likely were. They were nice plants and did well at work until it got cold. Later I bought from Lowe's and they were nice but I had years of growing plants from the mainstream hybridizers to compare these with so I think I may say Optimaras are fine.

AnneCecelia, the thing is that I have chased after way too many pretty photos and been very disappointed in my time. I now appreciate the plain ones that bloom nicely and easily. Now maybe you don't choose to grow those and it is okay. It is great that we like different things and there are different things for us to enjoy. I may have liked the overly fussy ones better when I was younger - I'm not certain. Now I see some and think they look like the cat hacked them up. I admit that I have a weakness for plain purple noids. I enjoy them. Something reverts and I let it sit around way too long. I have a couple of (presumed) Anthoflores hanging around. I do like wasps and bustles. I have some Russians that may make the cut. And there's a herd of chimeras at the moment.

I don't think you should speak as though Optimaras are noids though for they are not really. They are named varieties and it is generally snobbery that starts insisting that something as distinctive as R. Cora from Optimara in Nashville is a noid. What else is it likely to be? That is one that I can generally pick out on someone's shelf which is unusual. There aren't many plants that distinctive.

However the Cora I sold came from Selective Gardener so if Lyon's can sell their plants through the mail then surely Optimara can too. I have quite a few here from SG leaves so I would heartily dispute the idea that they are noids. I was surprised that people wanted the Optimaras when I know the RRs do not want them. The only one I did rather mention was Clementine which is a very nice one and not in production - or wasn't. I'm sending off a Modesty too. The only thing bashed more than Optimara is poor Feather :)

Me, I am more interested in coleus than roses since they are named things like Criminal Barbie and come in more colors too.

Diana

Sue, I hope you have realized that almost everything is now "vintage" so having a vintage collection is much easier. There is also "classic" which is 15 to 25 years old (and I don't quite get this but they have it I guess). Just refocus. I suppose most of mine are vintage since it seems I am mostly growing old ones. They aren't what I actually think of as "vintage," but they are meetng the definition. I think they were just released a few years ago :)

Diana

Hmmm I never thought of that definition for me. Serious grower, not show grower. Heck I am thrilled when something blooms and blooms well. I will admit, as I have before, I am not fastidious about plant care. I may forget and/or forgo watering if something like life gets in the way. AND may forget for a couple days after that! But they forgive me. And I may not get the beautiful blooms I see in pix on this forum but I am happy with what I get. If I want more, I need to do more. I do know that.

Oh don't worry, they are not totally neglected or starving unduly. Just a little at various times.

Aegis I can almost smell your roses! Wait, sniff sniff,,,,yep! Magnificent fragrance! Food for the soul! And a feast for the eyes!!!! Thanks for that!!!!

I just love this forum and all of the different opinions and points of view! Rosie

Diana, sorry if it sounded as if I was inferring that all Optimara's or Anthroflores purchased through local stores were NOIDS. I was just going with a commonly expressed opinion on various AV forums that if it didn't come with a tag, you can't really call it what you think/know it really is, and so I never passed any along calling them by some name I could not prove. That's all. And I'll grant you that some Russian varieties do have a resemblance to "something the cat hacked up." LOL. I guess I don't know what I am really seeking when I acquire AV's these days - variegation, bustle backs, longifolia, chimeras, - I guess I'm looking for something different and unique; trying them all on as it were. Just as I did with roses, growing at one point in my life over 250 varieties from the once blooming old garden roses to modern hybrid teas and everything in between that I could get to survive in zone 4 (including Dr. Buck's Quietness - nice plant and great photos, BTW Aegis1000.) It's an exploration of a passion, I guess I'd call it. It will settle down and I'll cull back to the ones that do best and the ones that I love. But it sure is fun to experience the wealth of variety that is out there on the market for purchase or trade!

This is such a great discussion! My favorite violets are those that grow nicely for me! I don't have the time or the inclination to fuss over every little change in ph or measure the accuracy of 50/50 peat/perlite. No matter where it comes from, if it needs pampering, I don't need it.

That being said, Optimaras tend to hold up well under my conditions. There are other violets that won't grow for me at all, no matter how hard I try. I can't get a Buckeye to stay alive no matter what!

Yes, I know that as the years go on, the number of violets that become "vintage" by definition grows exponentially, and there are classic as well. These are terms defined by AVSA. For me, I will always consider the violets of the 60s, 70s and early 80s as my vintage. They seem to me a little hardier and a little more resistant to changes in environment. For the most part, they are less fussy. BUT, if I see a violet that was just introduced yesterday, and it catches me the moment I look at it, it will come home with me!

It is good that we all have different preferences and tolerance levels! It is what keeps the growers growing and the hybridizers hybrdizing

You're welcome Joanne!!! Thanks! Rosie

Sue, I tend to agree with you on the vintage but what with the definition being 25, a lot are now "vintage." I kind of wish they would make a split there somehow (don't ask me how). It just seems that the early ones don't belong with these later ones. Vintage and Very Vintage maybe. I did think about it and maybe split them around 1970 or 1975. The AVSA might be able to see something from registrations when there was a "boom." I had originally said 75 or 80 though. That's a big problem with FC2 that you can't sort by date and there is no "ca." date for non-registered ones even when they have it.

That is interesting about the Buckeyes. Some others have said they cannot grow them I haven't had my few very long but so far, no problems. Maybe I'll hit a snag. Now Ma's have been a struggle. Not all Optimaras do well but I've enjoyed them and haven't had to mortgage anything to try them either. I'm thinking the myViolet series may not grow very large for me.

AnneCecelia, My opinion is worth every cent, lol. It is not always a Russian that I think that about but I will not say. We all like different things and I do think I may have liked some different ones when I was younger. I have begun to notice foliage a little more and also the overall effect - sometimes that is not so good. However it's been a long time so not everyone needs to think like that or maybe some will be a little quicker! Still I am not going to be a person who favors foliage over flowers. I did decide to improve foliage and try new (to me) hybridizers which is why I have what seems like a million plants at the moment.

I know the ones you mean who insist that the Optimaras are all noids. I have been tempted to post everything I have as a noid and see if they can let that go or if they will be identifying Witch doctor or Happy Harold or Tommie Lou or even Private Dancer? And I would say, no, it is a noid for it has no tag. Still there ae only a few people like that.

We are in what is something like zone 4 but with a nasty wet clay soil so not much has lived through it. Barberries mostly.

Diana

Rosie. I wondered if I could have your permission to copy and repost your list that started off this wonderful discussion thread. I administer a Vintage Violet page on Facebook and I would love to put your list into our reference files.

Oh Sue! I am flattered! By all means go right ahead. It was considerate of you to ask but you can reprint anything I have said! Vintage Violets are so great! I miss mine that I can't get anymore! Rosie

PS. This spring at the Ann Arbor Violet Show I did connect with another "old friend". Lyone's Pixie Blue Trail! And yes,,,it followed me home and is doing well!!!! See??? I DID recover a vintage! Nice big plant I must say! Now if I could just find Sweetheart Trail and Pixie Pink Trail! (and 1000 others! lol)

Thank you! I have leaves down of Pixie Pink Trail so when I get babies I will be happy to share. As well as whatever else you might like that I have!

OMG!!! Sue thank you sooo much! Oh geeze, now I can't WAIT for fall (toooo hot to ship now anyway even if they were ready!)

Hey Irina and everyone else,,,,,bet you NEVER thought I would take a violet name OFF my list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! roflmbo!!!!!

Just let me know when you are ready! Rosie

I just found out I have an Optimara Rhapsodie Michele. I had bought it, as others mentioned, in a Publix grocery store to keep my only other African Violet company. I have been looking for a couple of additional varieties, variegated in particular, to complement the ones I have now, as I only want to have a few plants. (Used to collect Rex begonia years ago and I don't want to get into that level of hobby again!) Anyway, I wanted to find out what I had, so I looked on the label and called the nursery (Loops Nursery in Jacsksonville, FL). They referred me to Optimara, which is how I identified the plant. It is not the vintage variety, as it was revised in 2002 (AVSA Registration Number:6618/8994), but it is still quite pretty.

Awww, glad you found something you like. But,,,,let me know how not getting a bunch more works for you! lol Rosie

Looks like another one is still available - Gisela.

http://www.selectivegardener.com/Optimara-Violets-By-Series-Leaf-/Rhapsodie-Girl-Series-c29/

I have an O. Michelle (I think) also. The flowers are one of my very favorites. Such a beautiful pink!

I like the way the purple/magenta edge sets off the paler pink petals as well.

Yes, just wonderful.

Rosie, I am seriously going to try to limit myself to just enough to fill one windowsill, which makes that 5. With 16,000 varieties to choose from that makes it challenging, but I have already picked out my next (I mean final) 3, which all have variegated leaves and are semi/double varieties. As mentioned, I am trying to get something I don't already have, so what I am planning to order in the spring are: EK Scarab, Ma's Arctic Sky and either Angel's Innocence or the Russian Pink Watercolor. That assortment should keep me happy!

Well Corinne, I wish you luck. Maybe I just have an addictive personality! I know I loooooooooooove color! If you can do it,,,,,,,great. But just let us know when you get your 10th one! lol Good Luck! Rosie

I wonder how long this New Year Resolution will last... ;-))

IMHO if you grow on a windowsill - most of the time it is better to choose non-variegated plants. Variegated AVs really do better under fluorescent lights - when you can enjoy both a spectacular foliage and blossoms. On the windowsill... the blossom count will suffer.

I grew Pink Watercolor - it is a good choice - the variegation is mostly at the edge of the leaves, so it doesn't impede the photosynthesis that much, it is floriferous and the leaves are nicely fuzzy and pleasant to touch.

i.

Irina,

My pink water color is growing very slow. Sometime the flower bud just frozen there and do not bloom for longo time. I grow at the window sill. Is it the way it is?

I try to limit to 12 plants but there are so many beautiful av which hardly can resist. :D

Yes - windosill makes plants dependent on the time of the year...

Yup - you cannot just have 12... you want to try more...so if you hang a fluorescent fixture above a horizontal surface... somewhere... in your residence... you can have 12 more ;-))

i.

Thanks for the advice and moral support ; ). I already have too many critters in the form of horses, dogs and cats to take care of, which is why I am determined not to go crazy with the African violets! I appreciate the info on the effect of lack of sunlight on variegated plants' blooming. All of the varieties I am planning to get have it mostly on the edge of the leaf, but I really prefer the different colored, splashy variegation. Living in Florida, I am more worried about getting too much heat/light in the window, but the one I am using has partial shade from a nearby oak. I can always put them on the porch between blooms if necessary, but I have had bad luck with raccoons digging in my potted plants. They don't care about plants if they are in the ground, but for some reason they think there is some hidden treasure in the potted ones! (I don't use fish fertilizer or bone meal, so that's not it. They just like being a pain, I think.)

Corinne -

I have friends in Tampa area who grow exquisite AVs - under fluorescent lights.

I do no think AVs do well outside there - though Achimenes, Sinningias, Kohleiras can be spectacular - on lanai - where the critters are not permitted. But you need to spray every so often - because thrips and mites go through the screen. Primulinas do well on the windowsills on a shady side. So if you want to grow gesneriads - it is a good place for them! And a lot of choices.

Try Kohleria! You can have a gorgeous one on a windowsill.

I.

I will have to check the Kohleria out. I was only thinking of putting my "noid" on the porch, even though I like it, if things get a little crowded inside. I have to repot it soon. I usually use pyrethrin spray for bugs around here (water based, nonsynthetic) which should be gentle enough for the AVs, I would think.

Pyrethrum is for control, not for eradication. Outside in FL is riddled with foliar mealy bugs - the juveniles fly. That's one persistent pest.

I.

Just wondered if anyone is going to the national show in Orlando? I decided not only to go but to enter something in the design classes--just in dish garden and natural container. Of course that means I have to buy a couple of minis or semis, so you guys won--that will put me over my limit of 5. ; ) I prefer the standards, so for me they won't "count" but I'm sure I won't be able to resist bringing home something from the show!