For years I have enjoyed Carol's roses and I am amazed at how she does it.

I am sad for the regular rose forum and their conventional ways. Years of chemicals. I am glad for Jim and especially Straw for supporting the Organic rose forum. I miss Karl Bapst. I have seen a number of posts about mineral deficiencies recently.

I emailed Karl and got a reply back about 3-4 months before Karl Bapst passed away. I emailed him once in awhile just to see how he was doing...

His best advice: which made me laugh... I asked what I should do about all these rose slugs on my roses... Karl told me to close my eyes or walk swiftly when I got close to my roses & I would not notice...LOL

Karl said it can be done. (Growing roses without chemicals). He was right. It's actually better.

Sam: I love the deep colors and healthy leaves on Ebb-Tide. I wish I could smell that, how's the scent on that one? I sniffed Intrigue at Walmart, and decided NOT to buy that, although it was $5 per gallon, lots of buds, but the scent was too spicy. Pink Knock-outs can smell good in cool weather, if there are lots of them like at Home Depot.

Yes Ebb looks great Sam!

Straw - I changed the "recipe." :) Thanks! Your instructions are so spot on!! I love how detail minded you are. I'm really surprised at the rocks. But they should be great! Wow!! I love your WS2000!!!! Love the color too!!

Question: Let's say we have a really rainy spring (normal), then the rocks are gone. Then we get another huge dump of rain (about week and a half of rain) in late summer (usual). Should I put more rocks on???

Sam - yes, you describe it well. :) Sing it with me, "It's the ciiiiiircle, the circle of life!!!" :)

Jim - not only the cold, but my backyard is on glacial till. So, it's like placing the rose in a concrete coffin. I tried it with one rose (morden blush) when we first moved here. It drowned. As to the garage - it's not that bad. When we bought our house it came with a huge overhead heater. So if the weather gets to - 40C (-40 F), I can put the heater on. But really, it doesn't seem to get that cold here. What I do is I place the really, really well-watered roses off the concrete onto boards. Then I cover them with sleeping bags, blankets, etc. so that there are many layers. Then when it starts to get warmer in the spring, I start taking some blankets off. Our garage is insulated. Yes, we've had hail and two dumps of snow. I live right in the hail zone. My roses don't like the hail. :) Last August (I think) we had such a snow dump that it wrecked trees, etc. all over the city.

Sam again - awww....! That's sweet of you! I always say that I have weather challenges - but at least I don't have lack of water, terrible rose bugs, fires, and diseases.

Question again!

1. Why is this forum called Organic? Aren't the chemicals like tomato tone, and other fertilizers considered to be chemicals? Or do you mean, no spraying, etc.?

I am totally against spraying. What a nightmare - but then it's easy for me to say that since disease is really rare here.

You guys are awesome!!!

I remember Karl's postings too. I still miss his contributions. He was an inspiration! Remember his roses and how many blooms there were!!!? Amazing!!!

Carol

Carol: Thank you for sharing with us your experience in wintering roses in the garage, I appreciate that in my zone 5a. Here's the description at the top of this Organic rose forum: "This forum is for those growing roses using organic methods. Organic gardening is most easily defined as a philosophy that stresses the use of naturally occurring substances and friendly predators and avoiding man-made chemical fertilizers and pesticides. "

The key word is man-made-chemical fertilizers and pesticides. Espoma line of product (TomatoTone, PlantTone, RoseTone) consist of natural-products: sulfate of potash is a MINED product, a natural mineral in the earth, same with gypsum, feather meal, alfalfa meal, and chicken manure.

That's different from ammonium in MG-Soluble fertilizer, made through chemical reaction (read the explosions that killed & injured many in fertilizer-plant).

Last night we had ungodly heavy rain, all night. That happened 3 times this week !! I'm going out this morning to re-apply pea-gravel and some red-lava-rock.

Some Sprays are organic...

The Tones etc. are organic...

Some granulars fertilizer are not organic such as Osmocote...

Some liquid fertilizers are not organic such as Miracle Gro etc..

Fish & Kelp etc. fertilizers are usually organic...

Product Label should tell you if fertilizer is organic or not...

I only grow roses in the ground and was always taught to treat my plants, roses, shrubs, etc (entire garden) like the forest.... So I mostly only apply compost... I don't spray anything...

I have experimented over the past few years but I'm right back to what works best here... Treating garden like the forest....lol

Straw - Okay, I'm not using miracle-gro anymore, so I'm organic!!!!! Yay!!! So, if there's tons of rain, and the pea-gravel and red-lava rock are gone - reapply. That's what I needed to know. I feel so learned!!!!

Jim - The Tones are what I'll use then. :) I don't like to use granular fertilizers, cause our season is too short for them. They all seem to last 6-9 months.

You all seem like rose family to me. :)

Carol

Carol was asking about the Strawberry hill rose.

Straw

do you grow that one?

Sam: I don't grow that rose, but the rose park has it. NOT IMPRESSIVE, shooting canes, tiny faded bloom, blah myrrh scent. Munstead Wood is much more compact & fabulous scent. The rose park has those 2, and I would pick Munstead Wood over Strawberryhill if I have to grow one in a pot. Sam, do you cook for yourself often? How did you make you tomato & crab for breakfast? I always look for ways to use tomato.

Carol: Sam posted lots of fantastic pics. of his garden in Jim's most recent thread of Rose & Stuff. That's where we post our pics, and "journey" our gardening activities. In the winter Jim and I still chit-chat but more on staying healthy & losing weight & sleeping well. Anyone is welcomed. I would love to have another female in this forum, I discuss about healthy eating & fast & easy way to feed the family. Jim's wife does the cooking, so when I shared that fabulous ribs-recipe, he forwarded that to his wife.

Sounds good! Consider me part of the Organic Rose crowd! :)

I sure could use losing weight too. I could lose 80 lbs (yeah, sure, that's not going to happen). I have been seeing a personal trainer for about 5 months. I haven't lost any weight (sigh), BUT!!! I have gotten rid of my cane, my neurological balance is sooo much better. She works my core (which is where my neurological problem is centered). So instead of deteriorating (my condition is degenerative - eventually I won't be able to talk, breath, swallow, walk, etc.) - I have IMPROVED!!!! It's unbelievable how much doing training has helped my quality of life.

My new challenge is I might have retitnitis pigmentosa (tunnel vision) - the optomitrist says I have RP and am going blind. So on Monday, I see the RP specialist. That would really suck to have RP. I don't mind challenges - but I want to be able to SEE my roses!!! I would give up on roses, if I went blind. But...I might only go legally blind, in which case I could see through a smalle tunnel of sight. :) That could work. And you never know, I might go blind in 10 years?? Who knows?? So wish me luck on my appointment!!

Carol

Straw I would make a crab and tomatoes omelette.

Carol

I have a snow removal business on the side, where I do a couple of driveways with the snowblower. Not many on the rose forum can say that I am sure. Ha

Snow removal!! That's pretty neat! Maybe you could haul the snow back to your place and dump it on your roses to keep them winter safe!

Carol

Carol: I would feel the same as you do, so I pray hard for your appointment on Monday. Yes, it would be really hard to grow roses without vision to avoid those nasty thorns. Mustead Wood is the thorniest rose ever ... won't be safe if one can't see clearly. However, the "low-thorn" messy ones like Golden Cel, Crown Princess Mag, Marie Pavie poked me MORE than the compact & thorny one. Sharifa Asma never poke me, since it's so tidy & compact .. strongly recommend that for the pot. The scent is heaven.

Yes, Core-training can make one feel like "superman". When I was in college, I visited the college-gym in the morning and used their elevated ab bench. Wow !! that really firmed my core. I felt fantastic, tummy-tucked-in & strong-shoulder & good posture. I could do 100 sit-up on a flat floor with zero-result. But the ELEVATED AB-BENCH is really good. My 62 year-old sister bought such, and both she & her 70 year-old hubby LOVE IT. She sent me the link, I won't buy it unless I use the stuff we have at home 1st: Bow-flex, treadmill, elliptical machine and Nordic-track. Exercise is EASIER than cooking for my family. Secret of skinny-rich people? They have a chef to cook for them, plus eating the left-over. I'm a "human-garbage-disposal" for my kid's left-over.

A chef to cook for them!!! Oh that would be heaven!! That is actually a daydream of mine. If I had a personal chef, they could make low fat food delicious!!! Ah well. :)

My training is at home with a personal trainer. We use less equipment and more full body exercises. When I started, I couldn't do any of them without holding on to my dog and a chair. I've trained all of my dogs (3 standard poodles) to help me with my disability. Now I don't need to hold on to anything!! I can stand on a ramp, and not go careening down to the bottom. My dogs still come to help me when I get up or down from a couch/chair - but I don't need them. It's truly life changing!

And thank you so much for the prayers!! I really need them.

Carol

Yes sending lots of prayers to you also Carol!

Sam: Do you get lots of snow where you are in NY? We don't have much snow in our Chicagoland, dry-winter that kills lots of roses. My neighbor bought a snow-blower and he used only a few times last year. I gave away my BIG old snow-blower, since it occupied too much space, and we hardy use it.

Carol: Dogs are amazing, please keep us update on Monday after your doc's visit. I pray that God will work a miracle for your RP (tunnel vision). I prayed really hard for my last visit to the dentist ... and yes, God answered my prayer, the dentist did a great job in fixing my bite (teeth were shifting), so I can bite on crunchy things like RAW carrots, RAW apple, RAW cabbage, and stay healthy & lose weight. I wasn't able to eat such things for 5 years, and the weight piled up.

Straw - yes, dry winters are terrible for roses, aren't they. Yeah, dogs are wonderful. I will update you all on this thread. And yes, God does answer prayers. I have a long story to go with that. I consider it a miracle. But, my niece has RP (poor thing - thankfully she can still see), so it's genetic. I'm okay with this road if it's God's will.

Good going for your teeth!! That's awesome!! I like your attitude on eating healthy. I've pretty much given up on that. I don't like fruit/veggies all that much. Maybe I'll be inspired by you.

Jim - Thanks for the prayers. I really appreciate it.

Carol

I get 3' of snow. Its not the cold that hurts the most, its the cold wind that needs to be blocked. I put Adirondacks chairs on their sides with leaves around the roses.

Sam - that sounds like a good idea! A friend of mine uses garbage bags stuff with leaves. Then (being in zone 3a) she puts stryafoam slabs all around her roses.

Carol

One year here I put a tarp on the fence and tarped all around the roses to block the wind and it helped a lot.... But the tarps ripped so stopped doing that...lol

Yeah, tarps can be expensive!

Carol

Yea me too. I have gone through my share of tatered tarps.

Carol wrote: " I don't like fruit/veggies all that much. Maybe I'll be inspired by you." Carol: My kid inspired me, she munches on carrots and mint like a bunny. I can't handle mint, but I love raw carrots. Prevention magazine once had an article on how RAW fruits & veggies have enzymes to keep us healthy, but once we cook that, heat destroys the enzymes and many vitamins. Which explains why I can lose 5 lbs per week whenever I went to MI to pick apples or peaches ...I was eating 5 peaches a day, or 3 apples a day when it's yummy like Sansu apple. BUT I gained 5 lbs. just from making apple pie, with flaky buttery-crust, and caramelized soft apple inside. Verdict? the apple pie is better, but I have to walk that off.

My Mom used to make me apple-pie everyday, I would eat nothing but apple-pie for lunch, but I was walking 1/2 hour a day, so that helped.

Wow!! Apple pie everyday!! Heaven!!!!!! Do you have a fabulous recipe? I am still trying to find a fantastic pie crust recipe.

I love cooked veggies much more than raw. I figure any veggies/fruit I eat is a bonus - regardless of how it's cooked.

Carol

Carol: I once bought an European butter from Trader's Joe and made apple pie with that, it was the best ever. But one can use a combo of olive oil, butter, and cream cheese to achieve the taste. What makes pie-crust crunchy is to keep the butter icy-cold, plus freeze the pie crust for a short time, before baking in a VERY HOT oven.

I'll post the recipe for one-pie-crust

1 1/4 cup flour

8 Tablespoon COLD fat (2 T. cream cheese, 4 T. butter, 2 T. oil). Cut the butter with a knife into tibits

2 Tablespoon ice water.

*** Blend 1 1/4 cup flour with 8 T. of fat until the mixture resembles meal. Add 2 T. of water, add more water if needed to form a ball. Dust the dough with flour and wrap it, chill for 1 hour before rolling. Bake pie & apple for 20 min. at 450 degree, then reduce oven to 350 and bake for 20 min. more.

While the dough is chilling make the filling: 3 lbs. sour apple, 3/4 cup sugar, 2 T. flour or cornstarch, 1 tea. cinnamon, 1/4 tea. nutmeg, 1/4 tea. salt, 1 Tablespoon lemon juice, 2 Tablespoon butter (cut into bits).

*** the cream cheese is what makes the crust special, and the lemon juice in the filling is a MUST, it balances out the fat of the pie.

Straw - I never thought of keeping the pie crust in the freezer before baking. I'm surprised at the 450 temperature for 20 minutes. I'm surprised at the lemon juice and the cream cheese.

Awesome!

I'll let you know how it goes when I make my next pie (which isn't all that often - but definitely one this fall). I'm excited to try it!!

Thank you so much!!

I'm off to my eye doctor appointment!! Later gater!! :)

Carol

Hope all goes well Carol...

Carol: Same here, I hope the best for you & pray for you. When I made that recipe (twice last year), I turned down the heat to 400 right after I put the pie in the oven. 450 for 20 min. always set my smoke-alarm going, pretty loud .. then I have to get a ladder to unhook that one from the ceiling. 450 is too hot for the cream cheese. The recipe is from epicurious magazine, which I kept for over a decade.

Thanks, Straw!! I can't wait to try it!

Thanksk Jim and Straw - I just got back. Told everything to family/friends, now I'm on here.

The doctor says I have some of the symptoms of RP, but am missing other symptoms. He doesn't know what I have. It could be a rare version of RP. Will I go blind in 10 years? He doesn't know. (But 10 years is a looooong time away). And maybe I won't. He saw a few problems on my retina, so he's sending me to see a retina specialist. So I'll see what the retina specialist says, and go from there. I'll let you know what he says.

So the upshot is that IF I go blind, it'll be a long time from now. So live my life like I'm not going to go blind. Enjoy, smell roses, and be happy. (eat pie).

Thanks for all of your prayers and kind words.

Carol

Yes, I prayed really hard for you, Carol. You are a super-nice person, you deserve good sight to enjoy life & roses. Doctors always give the worst verdict possible, but it's better in real-life. Three of my siblings are M.D's .. they kept saying that my Mom doesn't live long with her diabetes. But she's 90 years old, and doing great .. she has many reasons to live: taking care of my single-sister, her big garden, and advising her 12 children.

That reminds me to eat healthy stuff for my eyes: carrots and greens. I should make my kid more yummy treats like my Mom used to do when we were kids: We were having different types of pie everyday, and were really skinny as teenagers. Youth is the time to enjoy the junk food, and old age is the time for the "boring" healthy food. I really don't miss junk food since I had so much of that while growing up: pie, chips, and pizza everyday.

Thanks for the prayers! We all need somebody to lean on!! (sing it with me!!) LOL

THREE of your siblings are M.D.s?? Wow!! And you're a braniac with chemistry. You have one smart family, that's for sure!! Twelve children!!! Wow!! And she baked too?!! What a woman!! Did you enjoy being part of such a large family?

I agree, youth is the time for delicious food. Such a pity we can't just take a pill that let's us eat yummy food now without consequences. I guess that would be gluttony. :)

Carol

I have another fertilizing question for you Straw (or anyone :) )

What would I do if I need to water more than once a week? Would I add the tomato tone, sulfate of potash, leachate, fish oil with the tap water each time? Or would that be overkill?

Thanks!

https://youtu.be/y_qHX6PPTlY

Sam: Thanks for that you-tube, I watched it, it confirmed my success with pea-gravel on top for a variety of minerals. Carol's roses are in pots, which leaches out more nutrients due to frequent waterings and loamier soil. That's why U. of Kentucky experiment proved that FOR POTS: 3 times tiny-doses of soluble per week WORKED better than organics like alfalfa meal, manure, and worm castings ... these require in-ground soil organisms to break down, which are NOT in potting soil. Pots don't have the room to hold compost, nor decayed matters like in-ground soil.

Carol: tap-water has calcium hydroxide which binds with with potassium, phosphorus, and trace-elements in soil ... use sulfate of potash and gypsum to LOWER THE pH of tap water, and to PREVENT calcium hydroxide from binding-up. But sulfate of potash has salt index of 34%, compare to only 8% for gypsum.

I would do sulfate of potash (1 tea. per plant) & leachate & fish emulsion once a week to achieve the minimum low-ratio in rose-tissue: 3 part nitrogen, 2 part potassium, 1 part calcium.

ONCE A MONTH in hot & dry weather: Tomato Tone to supply the trace elements of zinc, copper, and boron in chicken manure. Plant Tone is cheaper and works the same.

ONCE A MONTH in rainy weather: Pea Gravel & red-lava-rock to supply the calcium & magnesium & trace-elements. That's to fulfill the high-ratios of nutrients in rose tissue in %: 5 nitrogen, 3 potassium, 0.3 phosphorus, 1.5 calcium, and 0.35 magnesium. For ppm it would be 250 manganese, 150 iron, 15 copper, 50 zinc, and 60 boron.

If you use tap-water 3 times a week in hot & dry weather, the other 2 times would be 1 teaspoon of gypsum per 1 gallon of water. And only ONCE a week of sulfate of potash & fish emulsion & worm leachate. Gypsum is VERY USEFUL to undo the damage of alkaline-tap. A friend took my advice of watering of gypsum and she was able to root previously-hard-to-root cuttings of roses.

Lowering the pH of tap-water with lemon juice (high in vitamin C) DID NOT WORK in promote blooming, and roses still had pale leaves from high water pH and bind-up of trace elements. The reason why Gypsum (calcium sulfate) works so well if you water 3 times a week is: the sulfate part prevents the tap water from binding up and hardening the soil. The place where I watered with tap-water? soil became concrete.

Carol,

Here in my climate my experimenting showed (Tones) last about 4 weeks in a pot and I was watering 4 times per week.. (This product has added soil microbes..)

Experimented with Alfalfa Meal fertilizer which contained soil microbes in the product also worked and lasted 4 weeks in pots.

Fish & Kelp soluable 2-5-1 also worked well in pots here using it once per week... (Did not experiment with it past the first season)

Organic Granular fertilizers with ADDED SOIL MICROBES IN THE PRODUCT probably work better in pots than those same products WITHOUT the added soil microbes.

I change potting soils every 3-4 years with our flowers and I would do the same with a rose bush here. So I consider potting soil more or less throw away soil...So I do not get to concerned what I use for fertilizer in pots. Now our native garden soil is a much different story...lol

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But Straw is right:

FOR POTS: 3 times tiny-doses of soluble per week WORKED better than organics like alfalfa meal, manure, and worm castings ... these require in-ground soil organisms to break down, which are NOT in potting soil. Pots don't have the room to hold compost, nor decayed matters like in-ground soil.

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SAM, I enjoyed watching that video you posted! I'm watching some other ones of hers also... Thanks!

Hi,

I've been too pooped out at night to focus on this. :)

I would really have to think, :) and I'm too pooped. I guarantee I will read this and use this information. I can't tell you how grateful I am. :)

Carol

Hope your more well rested Carol! You have an entire upcoming winter to digest this stuff...lol

Okay, thank you all!! I've read and digested. Now I have to print this up, so I can save it for next year.

One thing I am very surprised at is that there's no point in put worm casting on my roses. That's such a bummer. I really thought that would help. How about if I took some garden soil (1/2 cup) and mixed it with 2 cups of castings. Do you think that would provide the needed organisms? It would be such a shame to make all of this compost and not be able to use it. I guess I could always throw it in the perennial garden. But what a shame.

Thanks for all the info! I will put it all to use next spring/summer. I am very excited about using this knowledge.

Thanks!!!!!

Carol

Hi Carol, just wondering what type of potting mix/soil you use? Does it contain added fertilizers? And how often do you change it?

Commercially available potting soil is sterilized, in order to avoid the spread of weeds and plant-borne diseases.

Carol

Maybe your worm castings work good for you. Mike McGrath whyy you bet your garden says they are the best. MIX IT IN WITH COMPOST.

If you had two of the same rose you could try an experiment with the castings on one of them.

Sam

I've been researching what fertilizers people use in container rose gardening and its all kinds. lol... People having success with all kinds of different combinations...

I discovered also that a lot of people are using worm castings in pots with success...SO...

Carol: Worm casting is good stuff, since it's very low-salt. U. of Kentucky experiment was with MARIGOLDS, which are phosphorus hog: the more branching a plant is, the more phosphorus it demands. So high-phosphorus fertilizer like NPK 20-10-20 helps.

The experiment was in green-house setting with pots, zero bacteria, and with alkaline-tap water. So the acidic chemical soluble was readily taken by plants, but the organics could not be broken down due to alkalinity of tap-water, and lack of micro-organisms to break organics down.

In real-life pots, where I mixed a bit of garden soil (for bacteria), plus peat moss (to lower pH), plus potting soil, plus earthworm, plus soluble.. lots of blooms on Sonia Rykiel when it was in a pot However, when I tested different organics on top (Milorganite, Encap compost with cow manure, horse manure, and cocoa mulch) ... they gave LOUSY results for pots.

My 3 current pots, Prairie Harvest, Cloude Soupert, Reve'd Or. Organics like alfalfa pellets failed, I resorted back to SOLUBLE, using twice more blood meal, and equal amount of gypsum and sulfate of potash .. all 3 went beserk with growth & new buds. In U. of Kentucky experiment the Omega 6-6-6 of blood meal, bone meal, sulfate of potash came second to chemical, with much less salt.

Worm casting has BIG ADVANTAGE, it dries out fast on top, it's known to prevent whiteflies and other pests from breeding on top.

Carol I think you will be fine using worm castings in your pots. Worm castings contain a lot of soil microbes which help break organics down. From what I gather worm castings are not high in nutrients so a well balanced fertilizer would have to be used besides the worm castings...

Sam - What sacrilege!!! LOL Having 2 roses of the same type. LOL Yeah, having more than one type would be beautiful in landscaping, but I gotta have as many different types of roses as possible. I just gotta. :)

Jim - seems like my soil DOES have all the microbrial good stuff in it. Apparently for potted soils, the place I use, just adds sand to the garden soil, and calls it potting soil (which is what I use).

See below:

The BigYellowBag® made its first appearance in Southwestern Ontario. Since then, it has been making its way across Canada and the United States!

When it comes to getting our ‘stock’ of soil, we don’t just go with the closest or cheapest suppliers. We search out the best quality soil and stock it, sometimes for years in advance, to make certain we can consistently offer the highest quality of soil to our customers.

Different types of soil have different levels of nutrients. One will have more phosphorus, another more nitrogen, and so on. Using third-party laboratories and professional agronomists, we test the soils we’re purchasing from our suppliers to determine the quality of these levels.

Once we know the properties of the soils, we blend them to create a perfect balance that offers the best level of nutrients, minerals and soil texture to stimulate plant growth.

After we’ve mixed the soil, we screen it several times, making sure that there aren’t any stones or clumps in the blend. Then we get it tested again to make sure that our Black Garden Soil’s nutritional properties fall within optimal ranges. We all know the saying “you are what you eat,” and we want to make sure your garden or lawn is getting the best ‘food’ possible from our Black Garden Soil.

Quality Active Soil Does Make A Difference!

Soil is home to many living things and has an important job to do for the environment. It’s full of organisms, mineral and organic matter and provides moisture, air and nutrients.

A good quality soil is a vibrant mix loaded with microscopic life containing good bacteria and beneficial funghi; which help the soil cycle nutrients, decompose, help hold the soil together and improve soil structure.

BigYellowBag& Black Garden Soil is comprised of a combination of black loam, peat loam, very-well-decomposed manure and a touch of mineral soil. These ingredients encourage microbial activity, which aid in plant growth. This soil is specially blended to enrich and balance the local soil conditions found in each BigYellowBag® area. Approximately one cubic yard in size, the bags can yield enough soil for the average home’s use.

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So I conclude that my soil should be just like garden soil. I guess. So I'm going to continue using worm compost, but I'm going to use Straw's magic recipe. I'm quite excited about the change of using gypsum, etc. I'll let you all know if it's made a difference.

Thanks for all of your fantastic advice.

Carol

Carol: You are lucky to have such good soil: BigYellowBag& Black Garden Soil. Bagged soils here are cheaply made of "processed forest products" ... just a fancy term for "wood chips".

Sounds good to me Carol!

Awesome!!

Why don't we call this thread snipped. :)

Carol

Ok snipped it is....lol