Good luck Steve with your babies. My winter greens are primarily fairly small also. I'm hoping the chard, lettuce, spinach, parsrly, cilantro and mints will produce until the babies grow up.

They are growing!

By the way, notice the volunteer bean plant, upper right? There were all sorts of seeds about a month ago, on the bench that was carried out.

Second warmest October on record ..! And, this was after a slightly cooler than normal September. There has been some sunshine and some rain. Chilly right now ...

Steve

The frost never disappeared off my neighbors' roofs yesterday afternoon despite the sunny, blue sky day. It was was 21°f yesterday morning, 22° right now but we have about 3 more hours of darkness. The difference in the greenhouse is that I put the hoops in there and a low tunnel over the veggie bed, belatedly.

DW had left some house plants in there. I'm not sure if they will survive the frosting they took yesterday. She carried them into the house, belatedly ...

The Bean survived! Cuddled right up against the greens - I should have taken the picture from the same camera angle but there he is (you can recognize the heart-shaped leaves :o).

Lunch yesterday was choy sum stir-fry. Those greens came from the garden by way of the refrigerator's crisper drawer. You can see that I could have had stir-fry from the greenhouse, however.

Steve

Looks great Steve, and not that I doubt you or anything but.... I can't find the bean lol.

Hehe, I don't see the bean either.

My winter greens are coming along. With the extended warm growing season we had this year they are a little behind but still supplying large salads most days for four people.

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt344/gjcore/20151121_123855_zpsk2y9swke.jpg

The Bean will soon be there ..

.

. only in spirit.

Steve

NVS...

I think found it! Ha! That was fun, Steve, let's do more "eye spy"

Steve, I harvest out of the cold frames all winter long or at least I have in years past. The rosemary plant is going on it's 4th year and I am trying marjoram this year. The spinach and asian greens seem to do the best. The 2 weeks either side of the winter solstice are the slowest growing period. The biggest challenge is keeping them from overheating. Last week I ran an experiment to test if I covered the glass on sunny days with agribon would they avoid getting too warm. Seemed to do ok on a 50 F day. Without the agribon the temperatures would get too warm on 33 F days. This system allows to be hands off for several days. Not sure if a 60 F day would be too warm.

Greg

Greg, why don't you get an automatic vent opener so you don't have to worry about overheating?

Very nice Greg, I am out in the morning tending to animals anyways, so popping open a cold frame hatch wouldn't be much extra. Course, I guess it would require good timing on my part.

Colorado has more winter sunlight and more intense sunlight than here. (Or, so I've been told. My travels in Colorado has been under the summer sun :o)

With sunny days and highs reaching somewhere on either side of 40 °f, I have to open the greenhouse house vent between 11:30 and 2.

I enjoyed having marjoram on the floor of the greenhouse through one growing season. Winter killed it. This was before I began growing Asian greens in there through the winter.

Steve

Dan, my schedule during the cold months allows me to manually open and close almost all days. I also have 5 tunnels that need attention paid to and not sure vents would work for those. I can somewhat count on my roommates to help out in rare occasions.

The vents that I have seen for sale, the gigavent and univent, seem to not be recommended for winter use. What have you used before?

I'm also at the point that I'm going to a different design for the cold frames sometime soon so I'm not sure I want to invest time and money on the old design.

Greg, I have a Bayliss & I've used mine throughout the winter with no issues. It's good you are able to go out & do it manually. You can unscrew vent from wood and move to another, which I've done as well.

Our average temperature rose above the 20's yesterday so I pulled the low tunnel off the greens in the greenhouse. (Bean didn't survive the cold nights before it warmed.)

The greens have suffered some from the low light conditions and there was even less light for a few snowy days and continuing.

It isn't quite Winter but some greens came in for stir-fries tomorrow.

Steve

And now,

into the skillet!

Steve ッ

They look tasty, digit! Congrats on growing fresh food this time of year.

These winter greens look great. I'm afraid I killed many of my winter starts late this summer and into autumn due to neglect so the few plants I have in there are limited to some inches tall spinach and kale and some tiny green onions from the summer leftover onion sets I planted in mid November.

for green and Asian vegetables in your unheated greenhouse it looks like from the pictures above that you are sewing about 6 weeks before first frost is that accurate?

Hi Golden David!

The seed in the flat was sown between September 20 and 28. The first frosts were right in those days.

October, however, was the second warmest in local records. It was warm for another month. Sometime near that day on the 20th when the seedlings went into the greenhouse bed, it began to freeze again, outdoors.

This is the third year for me to plant things in that bed. Those things have to be at somewhat the proper stage of development. Each year, I've been dealing with different conditions. The only way I've been successful is luck and getting seed going every couple of weeks, somewhere.

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve.

I've got another question for you: how much do the low tunnels help in the cold months?

my unheated GH has been bottoming out at about 20F so far this winter with a shop lamp in there for some limited BTUs at night. But we haven't seen the depths of cold yet, Denver can reach -15F at the extremes and we've only seen single digits F so far.

The hardy vegetables in there seem unfazed by 20F but should I put a floating cover on them for nights approaching 0F? Or will they survive that? Or, am I leaving some growth potential on the table by allowing them to get so cold sometimes?

I feel it helps a great deal. But, I haven't put a thermometer out there ...

Fussing around with the thermometers is a nerve wracking ordeal in spring. Okay, since I'm not gonna do much different, one way or t'other, I think I can tolerate a test (of the out-of-tunnel temperatures compared to under-the-tunnel temperatures :o). But, the plastic has been pulled off for awhile. That exposure might have violated my "protocol," but I think it was only down to 17° the night before last.

I use outdoor temperatures forecast to be below 15° to prompt me to cover with that second layer of plastic. Below zero - for another cover with tarps ... I'll leave these things over the plants until the forecasts for overnight temperatures rise above these benchmarks. I have two remote thermometers; I can test my intuitions.

Steve

Digit, just curious! About how many hours of direct sun do your outdoor veggies get at this time of the year? Just thinking long-term potential plans!

Skybird

I don't have the photographs on photobucket any more GDavid ( I think - who knows with all the transition ) but back when I had the time I had a coldframe up all winter that I used water to heat. Maybe there still are some fotos on this board. One year at the house we had a low to -15F and three-four days in a row below zero and everything survived with the water and sleeping bag covers at night.

I also have a small portable greenhouse design (no solid sides but insulated on the back) that uses water and lasts thru the winter. I keep saying I'm going to sell them as a package but that project keeps getting put off... Anyhoo, IMHO water is the way to go. We use gallon jugs with water dyed black or painted black.

Well Skybird, the US Naval Observatory says that the sun rises here at 07:32 and sets at 15:57. The shortest December day is 8 hours and 24 minutes. The sun angle today at high noon is 18.9° and 6 months ago on this date it was at 65.6°.

It's just after 15:00 and everything is growing dark so it makes sense to knock off an hour on either end of the day, give or take, so that gives us about 6 hours of "light."

My greenhouse is in "full sun" but blue skies and sunshine sure don't happen every winter day, even if it doesn't snow ... Here's what Wikipedia says about the nearby International Airport and December "sunshine hours:" 59.1. By comparision, this is Denver's December sunshine hours: 195.9.

Steve

Looks like the sunrise here is 0716 and sunset 1637, so we have about 50 minutes more "light" from that point of view, but my problem is that if I ever do build some sort of a cold frame, the only place to put it will be where my veggie garden is, and the sunniest part of that is where the tomatoes go, but I suspect that in the Dark of Winter it probably doesn't get more than 4 hours of direct sun a day--if that! Since this isn't in the actual Planning Phase at this point, I've never really timed it! Might try to do that!

So I was wondering how much sun your stuff gets because it looks like it's not stretching at all, and I wondered if I had anywhere near enough sun to even take the time and effort to plan and build one. I've had no luck at all growing spinach in spring/summer--it bolts immediately, and not much more luck with lettuce. Fall and winter seems like the logical time to try them, but if I know before I even start that there won't be enough sun/lite, it wouldn't make much sense!

So, your "growing facility" is out in the open where it gets all of whatever direct sun there is on any particular day, and gets at least bright lite any other day when there's not a "storm!" My area would be on the west side of a 6' fence, with a two story house immediately south and west of it! That gives you an idea of what I'm dealing with when the sun's so low on the horizon!

Thanks for the info! I guess I'll need to set a timer or something to remind me to keep looking out the window one day to see how much sun there actually is.

But I sure wish you'd stop posting all the Yummy Food Pics! I'm hungry most of the time anyway, and I swear that sometimes when I'm lookin' at your pics my computer must have Smell-A-Vision!!! [No! I'm not serious about stoppin' posting the pics!!! But I AM serious that they sure look good!]

Longing for a bigger yard--with more sun,

Skybird

GoldenDavid it would be good to cover with row cover anytime temps start approaching single digits. I haven't used tunnels as much as cold frames but I've been able to keep most things alive through the winter in the tunnels. Last November when the arctic blast hit I was a bit unprepared and lost about 20 percent of the winter crop. Nothing lost in the cold frames but the tunnels in the cooler locations were harder hit. I did not have row covers at that time.

As far as water jugs they seem to help but less so when it gets really cold. In my systems they take up valuable space.

Many days, I'd have little idea where the sun is. When it's closest to mid-day and the light has the best chance of burning thru the overcast, that is the most likely hours to actually see sunlight. Otherwise, it's so close to the horizon that only knowing that property lines and nearby roads run E - W, N - S is my clue where the sun is in the sky.

This area of the US has one of the poorest possible opportunities for solar power, except during summer months. The PNW overcast prevails until the months when there is little chance for the rain/snow clouds to cross the Cascades.

Look at those sunshine hours! Denver has 306.4 in July, Spokane International has 382.4 in July. Quite a turnaround from having a 3 to 1 advantage.

I don't expect growth in those greenhouse plants over the next 4 or 5 weeks. There is just insufficient light for photosynthesis. What keeps them from stretching is that there is also insufficient warmth.

Denver's story would be different. How much, I don't know but having 2/3rds of your summer sunlight suggests that things would grow better. Of course, those plants will also need warmth. My guess is that you would gain a good deal of both during the afternoon on many winter days, Skybird. Ventilation could be a problem. Even stretching could be a problem. We are asking quite a bit from our plants to grow in some conditions they might experience at this time of year and those conditions must vary a good deal from place to place.

That the tomatoes require that space up until the fall frost would not preclude using that ground for protected growing after the tomato plants are pulled. The structure would just need to be there temporarily, as well.

Steve

"As far as water jugs they seem to help but less so when it gets really cold. In my systems they take up valuable space."

That's always part of the calculation in a structure that produces throughout the winter. It's just part of what is needed.

Denver is just over over 39° North latitude, Colorado Springs is just short of it. So, the line showing daylight hours through the year would be the same as Washington, DC.

Here, we are just a sukoshi north of Seattle's line.

Steve 48°N

That’s an interesting graph, Digit! Funny—I guess!—but I never thought of
Seattle, a/k/a, “you guys” as being quite that far north! I mean, after all, all of Canada is north of
“you!” It makes more of a difference
than I ever thought about, growing wise!

When I had layovers at Anchorage (latitude 61.22) a couple
times it was right around this time of the year, and there was just slightly
less than 5 1/2 hours of “daylight,” such as it was! I, seriously, could not “survive” up
there! It’s all I can do to handle the
short days “down here!” And to make it
even worse, the hotel we stayed at had the most god-awful “light” you can
imagine in the rooms! It felt sort of
like sitting in a big, underlit warehouse somewhere, so you couldn’t even just
turn on all the lights and “pretend” it wasn’t dark out! I was glad to “get there” a couple times just
to see the place, but I truly don’t understand how anybody can cope with that
little daylight!

You comments about growing in winter are very helpful! I was surprised by how little your greens
were stretching, and it makes sense that they wouldn’t if there’s not enough
light for them to be actually growing much!
Never thought about that! With
our “Colorado sun” here, and frequent warm daytime temps, the plants would
definitely be growing enough to stretch here!
I guess it would just be a matter of experimentation to see how
practical it would be!

If it ever happens, the plan would be to have a “removable”
cold frame built with something like 2 x 10s/12s, that could be assembled with
“pins,”à la something like
“door hinge” style! So, 4 pieces of wood
that could be “stored” over summer and easily put together in fall, with
something like “storm windows” for the top, again on hinges—with pins! It’s all speculation at this point, but I
SURE would like to have even a small place where I could at least try to grow a
little bit over winter. Inside is not an
option for me since I don’t have enough “south” windows for even the house
plants and few things I bring in over winter, and also, the white fly/fungus
gnat problem inside would be unmanageable.

I’ve already thought about heat over nite with possibilities
like black water jugs recommended above (tho I’m not sure they’d get enough sun
to warm up very much during the day), or a string of Xmas lites or
something. There are possibilities for
that. Since I’m retired now I’m here
pretty much 24/7 nowadays, so “manual” ventilation shouldn’t be too much of a
problem!

Thanks for all your comments. I’ll need to think on the idea some more!

Skybird

See, this is a little bit of a misconception:

Skybird - z5, Denver, Colorado That’s an interesting graph, Digit! Funny—I guess!—but I never thought of Seattle, a/k/a, “you guys” as being quite that far north! I mean, after all, all of Canada is north of “you!”

If we consider the Canadian population we can see something about the nation. Wikipedia tells us that, "In Canada, a 1986 study placed the point of minimum aggregate travel just north of Toronto in the city of Richmond Hill ..." link That is travel from where they reside.

Then, we can look at Richmond Hill, Ontario: 44° North latitude.

Not only is Seattle north of half the residents of Canada but so is Portland, Minnesota's Twin Cities, and Green Bay, Wisconsin (altho' just barely). I live further north than any point in Maine. Maine doesn't reach the 49th parallel.

Steve

My cold frames can be taken apart fairly easily. The four corners use corner braces and wood screws. With a cordless drill it takes only a couple minutes to install or remove.

In the past I've used Christmas lights but I'm going without this year (so far). I'm not convinced they are needed. If some plants don't survive then those will be something that probably won't be planted next year. The lights also made a nice habitat for unwanted bugs in particular aphids.

As far as old storm windows are concerned I have a couple issues. First is they usually have paint on them that flakes and then there is safety concern. The concern is that one needs to go out there in the winter and it can get icy. Would make a really bad day to slip on ice and falling through glass.

WOW, Digit! Something
else I never thought about! I know
better, but I guess I always just picture the U. S. as a “straight line”
across the top—continuing the northern borders of Washington, Montana, and
South Dakota all the way over to the east coast! I found a basic North America map with the
parallels on it—and almost fell over! I
ALWAYS think of Maine as WAY UP THERE!
It’s not! Wow!

http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/political-map-of-North-Amer.gif

Then I got REALLY curious so I found the north-most town I
could in Maine; it’s Saint David, and the latitude is 47.34. Coeur d’Alene, the closest “big” town to you,
is 47.69! Live and learn! You have my sympathy, Northern Boy! [But Anchorage WOULD be even worse! ;-) How about Fairbanks! Can’t even conceive of Barrow—71.30!!!]

GJ, something with screws wouldn’t work here! I know me, and I’d just “never get around” to
getting out a drill to set it up and take it down again, so either I wouldn’t
have anything in winter ‘cause it wouldn’t get put up—or I wouldn’t get
tomatoes ‘cause it would never get taken back down! I’m thinking more of something like “eyelets”
at the top and bottom of each corner with a short piece of rebar or a huge
spike run thru them in each corner. Like
I said, this is still in the planning stage!
I thought about the possibility of broken glass, but I’m also thinking
of getting something free on FreeCycle or Craig’s list, so it will wind up kind
of being whatever I can get my hands on at the time if I decide to go ahead
with the project. But, being olde, I
move very “deliberately” when I’m out in snow and ice—and—even when I’m NOT out
in snow and ice! :-) Need to think about it more, but it seems to
me a thin layer of plastic stapled on each side would help prevent the need to
clean up glass shards if a pane ever should break—and it would give the added
insulation of a thin layer of air on both sides. Something else to consider! But I never would have thought of the
possibility of bugs/aphids being a problem with something as small as Xmas lites,
so thanks for that heads up!

Skybird

No, I wouldn't want to live any further north ... unless I could migrate to the southern hemisphere during the winter ... Think about it! Live from April until October at 49° North and October until April at 49° South!

Skybird, I have the plastic hoop houses during the spring. Also, there are the low tunnels (hoopies), not just the one in the winter greenhouse but outdoors in early May. They are just plastic film over pvc hoops, pushed down on rebar stakes. It's conceivable to put one hoopie over another for added insulation. It is also conceivable that they are not just loose sheets of plastic over the top but attached to a board frame with the pvc hoops. PVC frames could also be square since there are many fittings available. They don't really need to be glued together either.

The door and windows I use on the hoop houses are 2" by 2" boards and the plastic is on both sides. The entire structure could be built that way. Staples would probably be strong enuf but I start with staples and then tack down lathe. Construction grade plastic film will last several months. I have actually used it all winter in the past. It is the summer sun that destroys anything but the UV-resistant.

Steve

Digit!!! I'm 72 (and a half!) years olde! I'm getting shorter again, at 5'2" right now! What I'm talking about is "SIMPLE!" What you're talking about is "NOT!" You've been doing this kind of stuff your whole life! I haven't! You're talking about "BUILDING!" I'm "NOT!" Actually, I had an 8' x 28' double glazed, glass greenhouse with an automatic vent opener and T-rails so the condensation wouldn't drip--that never got finished when I lived down southeast of Denver, and I can't BEGIN to tell you how much I'd love to have something like that that's even half the size now---but it's not gonna happen. Having conceded that, I just want a tiny little "place" where I can try to grow some spinach and lettuce over winter. I LOVE your hoop houses, and all the other "growing facilities" you seem to come up with, but it's not to be here!

But I do like your idea of putting just two layers of plastic over the frame for the "top" of a cold frame. That would definitely eliminate the possibility of having glass shards all over the place! Would also make the top lighter for opening and closing it. If I found some free door or window wood frames that still had the glass in them I could remove it. Something else to think about!

Skybird

P.S. I've thought, over the years, of doing the PVC on rebar stuck in the ground kind of thing, but then it would need to be big enough to walk into, and that's just way more than I'm up for at this point so it's not gonna happen.

P.P.S. How 'bout the 45th parallel?????

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/i4OAyV-N9ACk8m8jiHbqGk8aHZo2AKNLaB0EYKBV5cc?feat=directlink

Four, 1-gallon bags and it's 1 of the 2 lettuce bags that is open. The others are for stir-fry. Still, plenty of greens in the greenhouse, big bed.

The plants are the smallest harvested this winter. That's okay. They are from the skinny bed closest to the south wall. They were never covered, even on the coldest nights!

I wasn't gonna use that bed for anything. There were extra plants after filling the big, coverable bed. So, they got their chance. They must have froze any number of times!

Well, the tender/tuff little things had to go! This morning, the narrow benches went back over that bed and soil went into a flat or two. Onion seed will go in this afternoon!

Steve!

Inspirational as always Steve!

Uncovered some of the tunnels this morning.

Good to see the plants perking up. They all needed a good watering.

The mid tunnels and agribon has worked well.

Greg

Good to see, Greg.

I've had the water in the greenhouse 3 times since mid-October. There needs to be another watering soon, to get the plants through their final 4 weeks.

The agribon was something I didn't give a good enuf try. It was an outdoor experiment and I decided any tunnels in my distant gardens would not be a good idea. I'm not there early or often enuf.

I should probably have the agribon in that hoop house when I move the bok choy in there in March. Those transplants don't stand up to frost very well. It's a little surprising. Direct-sown plants would be hardier.

Steve

They might decide to bolt before mid-March!

You can see some frost damage but it's minor.

Steve

Saw this yesterday. Found it to be really interesting. Apparently it's a greenhouse made out of two layers of plastic (with air and space between them).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9evVLC0lns

Keen,

I tried that address a couple of different ways and it didn't work.

"This video does not exist." Was what YouTube claims. It should exist in your computer's memory with that url but we would need the "share" url to view it ...

Steve

The final bag of greens was taken from the greenhouse beds on March 2nd.

That was two weeks earlier than I'd hoped ... but, all of this scheduling and scheming is still new to me. Growing greens through the winter is such a long-term process, one or two weeks difference in sowing seed waaay back in late summer and fall of last year (& the weather during those weeks), makes for variable winter harvest times. I'm beginning to get the hang of it.

Moving transplants in from seed started in the outdoor garden in mid-August, seed sown in containers in late-September, and seed sown in the greenhouse beds in late-October looks like the proper schedule for a continuous winter harvest.

...ツ Steve

Certainly "dates to maturity" don't apply to winter gardening. I keep putting seed in every bare spot from August through mid spring. Yesterday I replanted some cover crops that didn't survive under the snow cover. Planted two different types of fava beans. Hopefully there's a harvest before it gets warm. Also moved around a bunch of lettuce seedlings. Lettuce does seem to do fairly well being dug up from dense clumps and then spread out in a different area.

That's the way I start lettuce transplants through the growing season, Greg. I suppose it's just about time for me to do that for setting out in the hoop house in a few more weeks.

I'm not much for raw veggies. Cucumbers! Salads are only okay and not too high on my menu. It was a good thing, I guess. Lettuce performance was not so great over winter; at least, the plants didn't die. I wonder how well Swiss chard would do. Spinach gets a few favorable points but I can't even remember to sow seeds for over wintering in the open garden! David52 told us about that and it's really past time for me to try it!

Preferences have to play a part in this. I will solicit some help and get those benches back into the greenhouse, tomorrow. It's a bother and I wish the setup was a little more "multi-purpose" but the greenhouse is nearly 20 years old and I had and have important use for it as a setting for growing plant starts every spring.

Steve

Swiss Chard does really well here. In fact it's near the top of my favorite greens to grow. I started one bed back in April 2015 and I'm still harvesting from it. Back in late November I covered it quickly with a low tunnel. Some of them don't look like they survived winter probably because it's in one of the coldest spots of the garden. Other swiss chard that was left out in the elements is starting to grow again. Probably it will bolt in the spring. I'll probably let it go to seed to collect for the next planting.

Spinach really does do best fall planted for a spring harvest. It tastes much better and the plants generally get huge before bolting. I've grown numerous varieties of spinach through the winter unprotected and have never had a single plant die.