Umm, I never could flower kingianum, though it was certainly a strong grower, so pay little attention to me. However, I think yes, the rain would be too much to expect flowering to result. I think you'd get lots of keiki's.

The plants I have (I got several all at once) have keikis. This is a separate subject, but do you think I should cut them off? The Wilford article, I think, mentioned that.

I don't want this thread to go off on a million different topics - my concern in Northern California winter rain - but I've read about people with trouble flowering these, and the possible problems with individual plant lines and cultivars (meaning, some plants genetically don't flower).

However, every other orchid, every other orchid species, the thing everyone talks about in every case is adequate light. Not enough light, no flowers. People talking about kingianum seem to believe there's something besides this going on, which strikes me as odd. Given that they're the "rock flower" I'd think in nature they're on cliffs and such and used to quite a bit of light.

Arthur would be the person to give the best answer to this...being as he lives in the native zone for kingianum.

I grew mine in a south facing terrarium bubble window...so it got almost max light. It grew very happily, just didn't flower. I wrote it up as lacking enough cold probably. Perhaps a bit of not dry enough in winter...but I thought I nearly dessicated the thing.

It's funny you mention that - after I posted that, I thought "oh right, the other thing people talk about is enough cold, and temperature differential, to initiate flower spikes" - and a terrarium bubble window that holds heat might not do the trick.

Arthur, I'd be interested in a description of the native locations where kingianum grows, in terms of sun exposure. But I really need a Northern California kingianum grower (and successful flowerer) to weigh in here.

Seems like most orchids will tell us when they're getting too much sun, as they'll burn, and before they do that (usually) their leaves will turn yellowish.

Certainly not Muir Woods. Look up the weather for Sydney Australia and you will see that there is no winter drought. In fact you will find the annual rainfall is about double that of San Francisco.

I suspect the big difference is drying out of the plants after a rainfall event when the prevailing wind in winter switches back to the west and comes across a very dry Continent.

The plant needs high light.

At Latitude 33S the orchid needs all day sun shining through 50% Shade-Cloth for the cooler half of the year. In late spring another layer of 50% shade cloth is added.

Annual Temperature extremes where they are growing down the yard in the shade-house

Min 2C

Max 42C

Summer Average temps approx

min 17C

Max 27C

Winter Average Temps approx

Min 7C

Max 17C

The serious Sydney Orchid Grower would love to grow Den. cuthbertsonii.....many have tried and most if not all have failed.......Climate does matter.

A bit more, two I observed growing in nature....

1. Growing on a rock in moss on the side of a small stream

2. Growing on the top of a hill in a national park in "soil" that more pebbles than dirt.

The Australian Bush doesn't lose leaves all at once. It is evergreen but has a thin canopy that lets lots of light through.

There are clones that flower poorly, other clones that make many keikis, no matter what cultivation is applied. You will get blooms on the main plant and on the keikis. Just tidy the plant up after blooming.

If possible, buy clones that are known bloomers rather than risk buying a dud.

I think that Wilford Neptune overcame the problems growing them in the frozen north of the USA. Maybe different problems in San Francisco.

Thank you Arthur - and good Northern California knowledge! Fortunately, I, like most of Marin County, don't live under redwoods (BTW the truly spectacular ones are 6 hours north on the Humboldt Coast). I spoke to a grower yesterday who had some lovely specimens that were growing in pure lava rock, no bark. Made sense to me. He also said don't worry about leaving them about in the rain, but I'm not sure I believe it. I've noticed that orchid growers tend to assume everyone has a greenhouse, a cold room in their house, and everything and anything else an orchid could require (for instance, I don't have a place to easily leave the orchids outside, but covered).

I'm trying to grow these outside in the elements. I think what I'll do is just stick them in a dark unheated shed (all I've got) to wait out the rains, and then put them back outside after the weather has passed from Nov-February. Maybe we'll have some spring rains this year and they can stay in the elements for that.

I dunno...it's not like they're dormant or anything...no photosynthesis..maybe terminal.

A dark unheated shed. You jest! Try them as per the the local growers method.

Everywhere is different but sometimes there are surprises in what will grow where!

I think the dip in temperature is more important than all this bone dry stuff.

Well they will get the dip in temperature for sure. Storms here come and go so they'd only be in the shed for a day or two at most. The "shed" actually has a big picture window facing west, but there is a hill in that direction and in front of that is the 75+ year old cork oak tree that the plants usually live under, so the light is limited.

Since I have several plants, I might try keeping some dry and letting the others get wet, and see what happens. (Science!)

Here is some more info.

The kingianums are somewhere in here. Not in my Glass-houses.

The shade-house is contructed with pipe and shade-cloth so it gets the weather with the shade cloth filtering out a bit of sunlight.

section of shadehouse

Now for the "drought". Three cool months (Southern Hemisphere)

June15 rain inches 3.26 Rainy days 13

July 15 rain inches 2.08 Rainy days 14

Aug15 rain inches 2.37 Rainy days 7

I grew up in Marin. All australian dendrobiums do exceedingly well outdoors, most of the time. While they are spiking, protect them from the rain of they will get destroyed.

They are all now in Pacifica growing like gangbusters,although they have started to grow squat as opposed to long and slender. I had to make more room in the greenhouse so I just took a knife and divided them haphazardly and planted them in the shredded redwood mulch in the yard from full shade to full sun and they have continued to thrive and bloom. I did notice that when they were fertilized heavily, tbeh continue to send up new frowth yeae round and some of those growths will rot when theres a cold wet winter. They are actually starting to become weeds so I always fill a 10 gallon compost bin with keikis and divisions every 2 years and throw them away.

So - you are growing them in a rainy Nor Cal winter outdoors. Others say keep them dry all winter. Or maybe outdoors in the cold and the dry doesn't matter. This is why I'm confused.

I've kept mine bone dry this winter, except for one rain exposure; and that means being inside in the warmth too. Though they were out in the cold when it was dry for a while too.

And, it is possible to kill them, despite what some people say. They don't do well in 26 degree nights - even bone dry. You don't get those temps in Pacifica.

I guess I'll see what happens in February when they go back out, rain or shine.

They are cool tolerant down to about 0C (32F) Read my post two up. You have to copy the climate of South Eastern Australian (Sub Tropical) erratic rainfall but no three month drought all winter. Dry periods can occur at any time of year!

In winter a rain event might be followed by days of sunshine with drying winds. The orchid is an easy beginners orchid that is known by the general public as the pink rock orchid.

Read the numerous past posts. Stacks of info. in them and forget about the total drought. Climate here matches somewhere like LAX or San Diego . Not San Francisco,

Yes, I grow them out in the elements in Pacifica, which is foggier than SF and they do just fine. I wouldnt put new plants outside here in the winter because their growths need to have matured or they will rot. Although the ones that are a little more protected have better looking leaves, they all.do equally well. The full sun plants have grown squater and thicker, the ones in shade are quite a bit taller but equally wide. It almost never frosts, and it generallly rains and then the sun comes out during winter. Growth is much better in the greenhouse bjt Ive tossed al the kingianums outside to make room for the hybrids and named cultivars. Also, the ones in clay pots have much better root systems while outside.

Thanks. I guess that is one answer to the question "do they need to be cold, or do they need to be dry?" Sounds like it's the cold because wintering outside here is not dry, most years.

I really like your "Science!" idea. When it comes to plants... I'm all about hedging my bets. I'm guessing that I get a lot less winter rain here in Glendale, CA than you do up North. And it doesn't nearly get as cold. But every once in a while we do get several days of cold winter rain. For me the number one issue is drainage. I've learned this the hard way too many times. Well... I guess I get "reminded" of this lesson too often. So years ago I decided to err on the side of too much drainage by mounting my orchids... and most without any moss at all. This means a bit more watering during summer but safer during an exceptionally cold/wet winter.

A few years ago I divided up a large Dendrobium speciosum and stuck one division on my Lemon tree and the other division on my Cedar tree. Rather than dividing the orchid, I could have had a really nice and quick specimen in one tree. But again, my number one plant rule is to hedge my bets. Both divisions established nicely... but then I started lazily tossing cuttings of succulents on top of the "root nest" of the speciosum in my Cedar tree. The succulents super thrived... but after a while... nearly every new growth on the speciosum would rot. I thought it was a goner but it decided to throw a hail mary (produce a keiki). The keiki is near some bare bark so it might be fine.

The division in the Lemon tree has done really well and hasn't rotted a single new growth. It's also maintained really active root tips all winter long so I'm guessing it's a cool/intermediate/warm grower. Only recently have I started to appreciate the difference between cool growing and cool tolerating. My Dendrobium canaliculatum hybrids, for example, are definitely cool tolerant... but they definitely are not cool growers. Their root tips deactivate pretty quickly when the temps start to cool down.

If us folks in Southern California could keep track of which of our orchids are cool growers... then this would be useful info for you folks up North. Although... with orchids like Dendrobium speciosum that have a wide distribution.... just because one is a cool grower doesn't mean that they will all be cool growers.

I also have a x delicatum that's done really well growing on a Ficus macrophylla "bonsai". The orchid is a good grower but terrible bloomer. Oh well.

Our conditions are close but definitely different. I highly recommend putting your kingianum keikis to good use by placing them in different microhabitats. This helps you hedge your bets as well as learn about the requirement range of this species.

Years ago I divided the heck out of this Cattleya and stuck divisions throughout the garden on different trees. All the divisions thrived... until a decent freeze killed around half of them. The divisions were from the same exact plant... the only difference was their locations.

Reed-stem Epis grow pretty well up North. Although... one fellow up there hasn't had much luck with them near the coast. Some reed-stems do appreciate a decent amount of warmth. Even though reed-stems are boring as heck... they do have a potentially useful feature. They grow quick and easy from seed... no flasking required. Given how many seeds are in a single pod... it's theoretically possible to make decent progress in terms of selecting individuals that are better suited to your conditions. Plus... some reed-stems can be crossed with far more exciting (aka "epiphytic") orchids... such as some Barkerias. I'm not sure if the hybrids will also grow easily from seed... but some Barkerias... such as whartoniana... are known to be "precocious" (bloom at an early age). If you could combine the quick/easy germinating traits of the reed-stems... with the precocious traits of the Barkerias... then it would be possible to make more progress in less time.

Progress is definitely a numbers game... and since orchids produce so many seeds.... it should be possible to make some pretty quick and decent progress in terms of cold/drought tolerance.

I've only just started experimenting in this area. I recently crossed Barkeria whartoniana with Epi secundum both ways. A pod didn't develop on the secundum... but there's a pod slowly developing on the Barkeria. If the pod matures... I'm guessing that the seeds won't be able to easily germinate like the pure secundum's seeds do... but I'm hoping that my guess is really wrong! Epi secundum has the largest seeds in the orchid family.... so it should be pretty easy to tell which parent the seeds take after.

I sowed some pure Epi secundum seeds last November... and the largest protocorms are just starting to produce their first leaf. They are in my unheated garage under grow lights. I'm sure they'd be a lot faster with some heat... but I'm hoping to select for individuals that grow in a wider range of temps.

Thanks - is that a photo of your divided Catt, or of that variety in the wild?

My question is pretty specific to D kingianum, since I am trying to grow outdoors in Marin County, unheated, where it gets down to 25 degrees occasionally; and where we had a couple weeks of 95+ last late summmer / early fall. I haven't seen other Dendrobium listed as candidates for outdoor culture in this climate.

Going forward, though, I'm bringing everything in if it goes below 36 (D kingianum, L anceps, Cymbidium) and the anceps and kingianum mostly dry and unfed through the winter (and in the case of the anceps, late fall and early spring as well).

It's been a traumatic winter, freezing and things staying wet and learning what these plants DON'T like - mostly the anceps, kingianum is more forgiving, though I managed to kill a couple with kindness or cold or water or a combination of the above.

Yes, that's a photo of my divided Catt. It's a hybrid so it probably cannot be found in the wild. A while back I decided that a crappy video of my tree is better than no video.

You haven't seen other Dendrobiums listed for outdoor culture in your climate? What, exactly, makes Dendrobium kingianum so exceptional? Its latitude...altitude... other? I'd be surprised if Dendrobium kingianum was significantly more cold tolerant than, for example, Dendrobium falcorostrum. And looking outside Dendrobiums... I'd be super surprised if Dendrobium kingianum was more cold tolerant than Epidendrum conopseum. It's the Northernmost occurring epiphytic orchid in the Americas. What's the Southernmost occurring Dendrobium? Not kingianum.

Honestly... I'm not sure if I'd bet much money on D. kingianum being significantly more cold tolerant than most epiphytic orchids from Japan. I'd probably bet less money on D. kingianum being significantly more cold tolerant than the epiphytic orchids of Korea. D. kingianum vs D. moniliforme? What about kingianum compared to the orchids of Argentina.... such as Miltonia flavescens? Is kingianum significantly more cold tolerant than the orchids of the Himalayas... such Vanda coerulea or D. nobile or Coelogyne cristata? What about the orchids of South Africa such as Polystachya ottoniana?

I think of kingianum as cold tolerant... but I really don't think it's exceptionally cold tolerant. But maybe it is? It's not like there are very many people out there willing to intentionally test their orchids against the cold. That was my original goal... but eventually I realized that, where I live, drought tolerance is a bigger issue than cold tolerance is.... and cool growing is a bigger issue than cold tolerance.

What an incredible tree, what happy orchids! That is very impressive. I like that they're getting some direct sun, too! Arthur said his get down to 36 degrees F or so in his shade greenhouse. I froze a couple out (dry, too) probably at about 29 or 30.

santa barbara orchid estate has a list of outdoor beginner orchids and another list of cold-tolerant Catts.

There may be other cold-hardy orchids as you mention, though they may not be as easy to find. Certainly not as easy to come by as kingianum and L. anceps. But I also just may not have researched it to the extent of your knowledge of growing conditions.

Den kingianum is significantly more temperature and drought tolerant that any of those hardy plants mentioned and they grown like gangbusters. They can take heat and frost. I grow coelogyne cristata, they sulked in the heat of Los Angeles but thrived in Pacifica outside under the summer shade of a Japanese Maple. We rarely get over 55 at night and 80 during the day at the height of summer. My neos did great outside in Los Angeles year round, but they did rot outside in the rain in Pacifica. My kingianums are planted in loose shredded redwood mulch in full sun in the ground around tree ferns and they are as healthy as can be. The great thing is that even if you somehow screw up and nearly kill them, they can still bounce back pretty quickly. Often, they will send up 2 flushes of growth. I also have some huge falcorostrums that do better when left outside without cover year round by a fence in the shade. They do great there. Its always cool and wet. Kingianums dont like the cool and wet so much, hot and wet and they just keep sending out new growth. They are really weeds in my conditions.

On a side note, I brought a dozen 20+ pseudobulb divisions of kingianums back to Boston and grow them in the basement under Metal Halides for winter and outside in the summer and they havent grown or flowered nearly as well. I forgot to bring them in last November and they went 2 nights just below freezing. I lost a few leaves, but they are fine although not blooming. They all look fine and healthy, just not robust.

Were your Neos potted or mounted?

California has a lot of microclimates!

Potted. Its generally always around 45 at night year round, occasionally getting up 55 during the summer. I would mount them if I set up misters for summer, but we generally dont see rain for about 8 straight months each year.

OK - time to resume watering these guys again. So, when they aren't dry do they also need high humidity? Or is the moisture in the pots enough for them?

anyone please let me know where I can buy this type of orchid?

thx

The short answer to your question is you can buy this orchid almost anywhere. D. kingianum is one of the most widely available orchids.

Also, the easy culture conditions are similar for most australian dendrobiiums, so D. speciosum or D. delicatum are similar. You also might see them listed without any species name listed, just the name of the hybrid - I saw one on eBay today. Have you googled it? What country are you in? They are almost certainly for sale on eBay, and Austin Creek Orchids in Petaluma, California has, as I recall, some for sale.

thanks for letting me know but I have not seen it at the big box, costco, grocery stores not even farmer market. the only place is ebay. Would you recommend Ebay?

epiphyte78, fantastic gem filled tree! I love that they're growing like their designed to grow. How are they watered?

djhnd, Mine are mixed in with cattleyas and all get hosed down once every one to 2 days. But, the kingianums have done fine with weeks of no showers, just pot watering.

OMG I wish I can buy this and glow it in San Ramon CA.

Thanks Tracy. The best source of plants, in my opinion, is the Santa Barbara Orchid Show at the Earl Warren Showgrounds. Your senses will explode with all the varieties and colors of orchids from all over the world. Once a year in March.

You can easily grow this in San Ramon, and you aren't likely to find it at big box stores or TJ's etc. You can find them at any orchid show, not just the SB one. There's quite a few orchid shows this time of year. Check with http://goldengatecymbidiumsociety.com/ 

they have an auction in May. They also have cymbidiums, which grow as easily as D. kingianum in the Bay Area (and have more variety and colors and are showier - the ones from a society will be much more impressive and interesting than what you find at CostCo, TJ's, Safeway. And often cost not that much more, or even less!)

Good luck, but don't blame us if you become an orchid addict :)

thanks so much for the info. BTW, I already crazy about your white orchids :-)

What a cute pink bunch! Your plants always look so healthy, Jane.

Tracy, two other very reliable mail order establishments that sell Den kingianum and Australian dendrobiums - both are actually quite renowned in the orchid world, but their prices are very reasonable - are in the San Diego area. Andy's Orchids, and Sun Valley Orchids (Fred Clarke). You can't go wrong buying from them or from Austin Creek in Petaluma. eBay is usually fine, but those three are guaranteed A++ growers.

I used to leave mine outdoors in the rains here in the SF bay area. It grew fine,but hardly bloomed. This year,its been on the porch...biggest bloom ever. So,avoid cold rains for bloom?

Thanks, Actcqn, the lens is very forgiving.

Jane

Thanks djhnd for the infor. I travel to San Diego quite often. I will contact Andy's Orchids the n stop by. Hope I won't get to impulsive when I see them :-)

Actually,I'm noticing that Orchid's in general- including Cymbidiums bloom better in California if winter is dry or dryish, and you water all summer.

So for the bay area..we might be able to grow the Dendrobiums outdoors...but the cold rains have to be kept off if you want more then a flower here or there.

It sort of sets me back on attaching them to tree's unless that tree blocks rains here and there- and you find that branch!

ps..Laelia's? I wonder since they bloom in fall,not winter or spring...if they should also be kept dry in winter?

My cymbidiums have bloomed best after the rainiest winters - but maybe that is simply because I didn't fertilize, and the salts got washed out. I haven't tested that out.

I have an L anceps thread on another orchid board and a guy from Mexico says over and over, they stay completely dry in winter in their natural habitat. There's a guy in Sausalito who has really good results with L anceps, and he doesn't water them at all in winter, and they are bone dry under a cover. In other seasons he waters them once/week on an automatic system. I met some people from San Mateo County who grow L anceps in greenhouses, they water straight through winter and some of their plants are monster sized with hundreds of blooms.

I guess that's why these three categories of orchids are considered easy to grow! Different things work for different people.

I had a hybrid Dendro- the kind you see at farmersmarkets with big purple bloom and puffy wasp-insect like stems. Thrived on my front porch- bloomed better each year..even out of bloom I liked the glossy apple green stems.

Then I moved it into the backyard and mounted to a tree...the deterioration was very fast. I couldn't save it. It just hated everything about the change.

I'm pretty sure,the Laelia's will be kept on the porch in winter- the low winter sun warms it up fast. Now? Its hanging amid my Tillandsia's up on my backyard arbor. In winter its considerably more shady and cool.

Sometimes, there isn't ONE right spot..lol.

Despite our California winter's being rainy, there are days of sun, rain and haze. with anecdotal evidence, they should do just fine because even in Australia they get rains when it's winter. Their plants never get 3 months of drought at a time, as long as your mix is well draining the rains won't have an affect on the plant.

The same can be said with Laelia anceps, however it is better to grow them mounted from what I read on multiple accounts. Once they attach to one spot you can just treat them like mounted air plants, spray them with water every few days with fertilizer when it's warm out. The only difference is that you need to give these laelias more light.

This is necroposting but this is an AMAZING thread so I'm going to bring it back to life for those to see.

I have D.kingianum EVERYWHERE now. In pots on the porch,on tree ferns,in the house on windowsills,,everywhere but right in ground..and since in ground like a groundcover is how UC Berkeley grows them,that means they do just fine like that.

Super interesting thread. I am about to try kingianums outdoors in Vallejo. Reading this thread will hopefully help me avoid some pitfalls.