That's a relationship of a lifetime.

After all those years together, I can only imagine your heartbreak. Starting all over can be rewarding.

You can't blame the pots. Sorry but it was strictly your fault. For not root pruning and for watering without checking the soils moisture first.

Lesson for others, this is what happens when you water on a schedule, instead of letting the soil tell you when.

Ouch, Pip... :-/

Give a guy a break, it's bad enough I don't have them any longer, but verbally flogging me after the fact is kind of harsh, yes? Hallmark has a sympathy aisle, perhaps you should peruse their cards sometime for a hint.

I already realize it's my fault, one way or another, I don't need finger pointing.

As to root pruning, I knew it was coming up, but in the middle of finishing a house, it became, sadly, a lower priority... and I was already in pots as large as I could personally handle. Clay pots are always better than plastic or glazed.

You blamed the pot. It's not fair to let others think thier pots will cause them issues even if they water properly, right?

And no clay pots are not always better.

Reaearch evaporative cooling.

I do partially blame the pot, as it was plastic. Everyone knows that a clay pot with no glazing evaporates water at a much higher rate than plastic or glazed pots. Yes, I over-watered and I take full responsibility for that. However, in an unglazed clay pot, over-watering is not nearly as big a concern as they evaporate water (especially indoors in a dry environment) very quickly. Had these been in clay pots, they may have had a better chance. I've been raising indoor plants for a very long time (40+ years) and every plant I've owned in a plastic pot has had problems and ended up being switched to a clay pot. The only reason these were not in clay is because they don't make clay pots large enough to handle trees this size. I knew watering would be an issue, but unfortunately over-compensated for not being there for up to 2 weeks on some occasions. Sometimes it can't be avoided, you lose plants due to carbon unit errors. End of story.

You are completely wrong to say clay pots are better than plastic.

its well known that in a cool climate a clay pot will push the root temps too low and cause issues.

quit blaming the pot.

Clay pots also absorb salts. Whole nother can of worms there.

Sorry for your loss. Wow, I'm in awe that you were able to grow your citrus in pots for that many years. It gives me hope with my indoor citrus plants. I have two questions.

1) Did you use the 511 mix? Looking at your photo it looks more like potting soil than 511.

2) Instead of clay pots, did you consider root pouches? Currently, I have my citrus in small unglazed terracotta pots, but when they get larger (or rather if they live long enough), I was thinking about moving them into root pouches. Or should I just keep them in clay?

Again, I'm impressed. And my condolences.

itsALLart,

I realize you are much more experienced than I am, by many orders of magnitude, but I have read at many places that citrus can really flop over and die very quickly if they're used to a particular light level and intensity and those conditions are changed suddenly. While waterlogging and root bound condition may have been a factor, this could have been the tipping point.

Pip, you shouldn't be too sure. Just because clay has some properties doesn't mean they always lead to negative implications. And come on, empathize. I have had my citrus for barely a year and I love them to death.

It just upsets me that new people will come here and think they have the wrong equipment when in fact they have the right stuff. clay has and will cause problems for those it's not suited too.

Plastic never has nor ever will be the cause of problems. That's human error's fault.

We are human, it's ok to say we messed up.

I hear ya....I get your point..It happens all the time..I use to do it all the time...)

Pip: OK. Right, got it. Clay pots = bad, plastic pots = good. Overwatering = bad, proper moisture monitoring = good.

Thanks for the nice thoughts, everyone.

Miscel: Always standard potting mix, it's not very scientific. I've never known about pouches, but for a tree that's 8 foot tall, I'm not sure that's a good idea. Clay pots are great IMO, all the rest of my plants are in them and I move them all outside each summer and back in during the winter. I root prune the smaller ones that I can handle as well as branch prune. I buy the super-thick pots, not the standard kind. They are never in cold conditions, if it gets lower than 58 degrees, inside they go. Works for me and has for many, many years. I just give them new soil every spring when I do the pruning and before I set them outside.

Tushaar: What I figured was that the new house would be a dream home for them as well as myself. Lofted ceilings, TONS of light (all four sides of the open-concept living room, dining room, kitchen are windows) dry conditions (my old house is horribly damp all year) and more even temperatures with good insulation. So, to have these go south on me so quickly was terrible. Leaf drop like crazy until some branches were bare. I figured root rot or mites right away but just didn't have enough time / energy to deal with it properly. For just sticking seeds into standard potting soil and changing up pots for all this time, I figure I did pretty good. :-)

Mikerno: Thanks for the warm welcome and your knowledge as well. I agree, citrus can be grown in anything as long as conditions are right. But, how long? 30 years? 35 years? 40 years? I wonder if there is a wall that the tree runs into no matter what, but that's a question for someone who has grown one that long with no troubles. I'm no expert, not by a long shot, but I have a lot of experience and I tend to rely on that (trial and error). The problem was I probably moved these prematurely. I am finishing up an interior of a 1900
sq. foot home on my own (electrical, plumbing, flooring, painting,
fixtures, kitchen install, and more) which is three hours away from where I reside, so plants have to take a back seat. I gambled and lost. Ah life. :-) Now I am continuing to grow 2 date palms from seeds my mother gave me 20 years ago, they are thriving. I brought them to the new place and so far, so good. Actually trying to minimize the plant thing in the new place, I'm down to 7. Two palms, two 25-yr old hibiscus, an arabian jasmine and a monster avacado tree. Can you tell I wish I lived in zone 10? :-)))

Citrus lasts hundreds of years in pots.

http://m.en.chateauversailles.fr/explore-the-estate/the-garden/the-copses/the-orangerie

Its all about root pruning and soil changes.

The bigger a pot is the harder it is to get air into the root zone.

The answer

How disappointing... :( :( :(

We all know tact is not Pip's strong suit, but he is right in this instance. The pot is not the reason and un-glazed terra cotta or "clay" pots not always the best pot for citrus.

First I'd like to say how sorry I am your trees died and I can tell you were fond of them and are upset about them. My condolences.

However, just by your own story you can see it wasn't the pot itself, because they grew happily in them for many years. if it was just the pot it would have expired much sooner, within a year or less.

In my opinion it was the move first, different light, temp etc. Then yes too much water, but only because of the different environment AND that your soil mix had deteriorated and compacted, as regular store bought container soils will do after a couple years. Root pruning would have helped, but changing the soil would have helped even more.

If you wish to know more, just put 5-1-1 mix and Gritty mix into the search box. You'll find lots of threads and posts explaining the benefits of these mixes and when to use which one.

Welcome to the forum and Good Luck.

Do what the orangeries do for trees that old. Use a wood box that you can take the sides off of and every year root prune and change the soil in on or two of the sides.

me I'd just use plastic, tip the tree and pull the pot out from underneath the tree. You might break some roots but if the goal is root pruning than oh well.

I'm sorry about your trees too, very sad. Well now you know how to do a real bang up job this next time around right?

I'm concerned about all this clay pot bashing, I planted all 11 of my citrus in terra cotta thinking it was the best for root breathability! My room won't go below 10 degrees Celsius at night and I plan to get them up off the concrete floor so will that be ok? They all seem to be doing well and I let them dry right out before watering (I think).

Hobbyartisan, if it works already, don't fix it. Everyone is going to have their own system for growing. Mine may not be the best but for someone who has limited income, limited time, etc, it worked pretty well (and continues to work for all my other plants). I'm just a hobby grower, not a pro, not a scientist nor an agronomist. (The "pro" label on my handle is pro in another industry, not plants.) If clay is not a good solution for some types of growing, there would be no reason for nurseries and other outlets to sell them in huge numbers. My only complaint would be the fragility and the fact that they can dry out too fast in hot conditions. After a time, they also tend to disintegrate and break down, can break up if left out in a freeze, etc. I do have several plants in glazed pots which (for me) is a good choice for aesthetics and sturdiness. I like my plants but I also like their containers to look good in an interior. I suppose one could put the clay inside another vessel that looks good. I've been tempted to make some on my own with a light concrete/vermiculite/mica mixture as I've seen some very pleasing solutions with that mix which allow you to go large but keep the weight down while keeping very "breathable" for roots. There's a name for it, but I can't remember it. I watched P. Allen Smith make one on PBS one time.

Thanks it'sALLart, I think most of them will need potting up for the start of next season so It will be interesting to see how healthy the root balls are then. Of course I will be monitoring for signs of trouble until then. I am already planning on making my mix grittier for next year now that I have been on this forum for longer and have learned more. These guys were all potted up in a mix of orchid media, cedar chips, succulent media, and a bit of compost and sterile seed starter if I recall so I think the drainage will be adequate until I pot up anyway. They seem to be loving it! And I watch the salt build up by flushing in between fertilizings.

Are you going to start again it'sALLart?

I may start some citrus in a few years, once I'm settled in the new place. But, I'm trying to minimize plants at the new place due to so many other concerns there (landscaping to do, basement to finish up, etc.) so my time is limited. Since I have so many other plants, I'm not as tempted by the concept of growing citrus as I was 35 years ago when I had no plants at all. :-)

itsALLart,

Those trees looked gorgeous and I feel very sorry for your loss. 35 years is a long time, and although I understand how much you miss the trees now, that is still a great lifespan for indoor citrus trees in my opinion, and you should be proud you looked after them for so long :)

You can grow trees as large as you want as long as you use a good/proper mix...It seems that you transplanted every spring and root pruned which could account for the reason why your trees did so well....Once a mix decays and compresses and then the root pruning is left out, it just goes to show us how quickly a tree can decline...

Keith, that is why I love using very porous mixes with mine because I can go for more than a year in any size pot using the 5.1.1 or gritty mixes...I don't have to worry about root rot or growing in plastic or clay...

It's funny you should day clay is best..You are right..If you plan on keeping the pots warm and if you are heavy handed with the watering can.....

The downside can be that If clay pots are left out in the cold and your citrus hate cold roots, especially the infamous Lemon Meyer, they will perform poorly..You were smart to bring them in every year when you did and keep them warm.

They are best for aeration because they are permeable, they allow air exchange that plastic will not do, and best for removing salt deposits which is why you will see them turn white with use of tap water and fertilizers which plastic does not allow...In fact if I did not leave my citrus outside for so long into the season when it gets below 60,, I would grow all of mine in them! My gardenia will only grow very well in clay, even when using very porous mixes..By the way, a pot with a thousand holes in it mixed with a highly water retentive mix will not prevent perched water in it, it will just drain faster leaving the same perched water behind..

.Also too there are many that will tell you not to be to concerned with mites, but I beg to differ..If left unchecked, they can kill a tree of 100 years within weeks...So the lack of root pruning, lack of fresh open mix that is forgiving in the water and decomposition dept., and lack of time attending to your trees did them in..Lesson learned and thanks for sharing)

I love the fact you have so many other things growing..Please share a pic...Would love that..

Oh... Mites are horrible! I've seen them take down an entire greenhouse at one organization's site because they just didn't keep up with spraying. They seem to thrive in dry environments, exactly what most people's interiors are in the dead of winter in my zone. I generally spray for them every day for two weeks when I bring my plants in for the winter (which I did at my old house but not at the new one, my bad.) . They live in the garage during the process.

Keith, what did you spray with and did it work? It sounds like you had a good plan keeping them at bay..If it worked, I would love to know what you used)

3 - 5 drops of liquid dish soap in a standard spray bottle full of water.