Editing to add, and if we still believe their primary motivation is bedding virgins in the afterlife, we are still woefully ignorant of our enemy.

*****

I was using that for effect. Certainly it's more complex than that.

We do the same thing so I'm not sure why they are expected to be any different. Or why they are expected to follow our laws and methods of war, other than then we could prevail...

******

That's a slap in the face to every parent who has lost a child defending our country.

American parents don't take pride in their sons and daughters killing. Our parents don't send their children to kill for some religion and they certainly don't do it because we consider every single other person who does not hold our beliefs, values and way of life to be infidels.

Our goal is not to establish a world-wide caliphate, but to protect our home, our freedoms and the freedom of others around the world.

The goal of radical islamist is the polar opposite and those parents support it to the extent that they feel honored that their child kill innocents and blow themselves to bits.

Of course you can call them "brave" if you like. The word can mean "to defy, challenge, dare" - actions which they have clearly demonstrated. However, most of us understand the term in the affirmative and consider it linked to valor, heroic action, and "making a fine appearance." I don't think "brave" is a reasonable or acceptable way to describe these people and IMO trying to apply that word to their horrific acts insults the memory of the innocents who died at their hands.

Lisa, I am sorry that you believe I misunderstood your words and took them out of context. I did read each word you wrote in that post to which you refer. I understood what you were saying. I still would not use the word "brave" or "bravest" to describe these people.

We do the same thing so I'm not sure why they are expected to be any different. Or why they are expected to follow our laws and methods of war, other than then we could prevail and win.

The U.S. army is teaching 14-year-olds how to behead people in terrorist training camps and making videos of it?

We also don't use suicide bombers in this country. When people join the military, they don't want to die. They are willing to die to fight to protect our country and our freedoms, but they aren't eager to become martyrs. And we bomb strategic military targets, with the aim of minimizing civilian casualties- we don't aim to maximize civilian casualties by bombing marathons or concerts or restaurants or office buildings.

I don't expect them to follow our laws of war. It's not our laws of war that should prevent people from intentionally targeting civilians going about routine daily life or that should prevent people from dressing their 8 year old up in a suicide bomb and sending him to kill infidels... it's basic human decency.

I am both angry, sad, and scared at this whole thing. Sad for the people of Paris over this latest attack and tragedy. But more so for our world in general that there are people relegated to living in fear for their lives due to this spineless faction of attention-seekers who think they can take over a portion of the world through intimidation, terrorism & self-destruction. These people have a different culture, a different approach to resolution of their problems, & an obviously different religion that 'allows' them to do the things they do.

I am angry at their actions - the beheadings, the rapes, the outright murders due to their perceived martyrdom and on and on. And I am scared because I am traveling to the UK in a short while and I shouldn't have to fear for what might happen while I am on a business trip. Yes, I know enough about the area I travel to and know what areas to avoid, and am briefed before I travel about the hot spots but it still does not lessen that spot in the pit of your stomach that 'it could happen while I'm here' feeling.

Beagles, you are taking my comment literally. Come'on.

I know what you are saying OutsidePlaying! We were just about to book a fight to the UK for next summer. Our plans were to stay a few days and fly out from there to a yet determined destination. We are hesitant to book right now. When we discussed this with our son (six yrs in the Navy) his fist reply was "well they've won then". So, we haven't written the idea off but will wait a bit.

OutsidePlaying- great post straight from the heart and gut. I hope you stay safe. Be vigilant. See something-say something and all that.

I also get a bit nervous about traveling abroad and want so badly to go to Paris without great fear.

'That's a slap in the face to every parent who has lost a child defending our country.

American parents don't take pride in their sons and daughters killing..'

No it isn't. But you choose to take it that way for the sake of argument and animosity for anyone who doesn't hang on your words and opinions to follow as their own.

Parents and this country are proud of their children serving and it is considered a noble thing to do. Those who evade the draft or flee the service to follow their own beliefs and not kill other human beings are condemned sissies who are persecuted and prosecuted. The terrorists also believe strongly in their own causes and enlist their children to fight them. I don't think qualifying that we are right and good and they are wrong and evil makes it different. They feel the same way about us. We are both/all doing the same thing to fight our wars. That is all I was saying.

Brave? Sounds to me like these
people were brave:

Nohemi Gonzalez, 23, a senior at
California State University, Long Beach. The university
said Gonzalez, from El Monte, California, was attending Strate College of
Design in Paris during a semester abroad program. Design professional
Michael LaForte said Gonzalez "was a shining star, and she brought joy,
happiness, laughter to everybody she worked with and her students, her
classmates."

Nick Alexander, 36, of Colchester,
England, who was working at the Bataclan concert hall selling merchandise for
the performing band, Eagles of Death Metal. "Nick was not just our
brother, son and uncle, he was everyone's best friend -- generous, funny and
fiercely loyal", his family said in a statement. "Nick died
doing the job he loved, and we take great comfort in knowing how much he was
cherished by his friends around the world."

Thomas Ayad, 32, producer/manager
for Mercury Music Group and a music buff who was killed at Bataclan. In
his hometown, Amiens, he was an avid follower of the local field hockey
team. Lucian Grainge, chairman of Universal Music Group which owns
Mercury Music, said the loss was an "unspeakably appalling
tragedy."

Asta Diakite, cousin of French
midfielder Lassana Diarra, who played against Germany in Friday's soccer match
at Stade de France, during which three suicide bombers blew themselves up
outside the stadium. "She was like a big sister to me," Diarra,
a Muslim, said on Twitter. "It is important for all of us who
represent our country and its diversity to stay united against a horror which
has no color, no religion. Stand together for love, respect and
peace."

Guillame Decherf, 43, a writer who
covered rock music for the French culture magazine Les Inrocks. He was at
the Eagles of Death Metal concert, having written about the band's latest
album. Laurence Faure of the Hard Force heavy metal website, to which
Decherf contributed, said Decherf was appreciated for his humor and
kindness.

Fabrice Dubois, who worked with
the publicity agency Publicis Conseil. The agency said in a statement on
Facebook that he was killed at the concert hall and that "the entire
agency is upset. He was a very great man in every sense of the
word. Our thoughts are with his family, his wife, his children, his
friends, those with whom he worked."

Yes - THESE are the brave ones. The
ones committed to living lives shaped by kindness, love, humor, work, productivity,
loyalty, education, family, friends -- human greatness represented by normal
people with normal lives. They were the brave ones.

No it isn't. But you choose to take it that way for the sake of argument and animosity for anyone who doesn't hang on your words and opinions to follow as their own.

******

No need for ad hominem attacks here. Whoa, simmer down.

I commented on what your wrote. Not YOU. Big difference.

No, they weren't brave either. They were victims.

Brave would be an ISIL recruit standing up to his "leader" and refusing to commit such acts; brave is running toward danger to help an injured person, or stepping into harms way to protect anther.

We are both/all doing the same thing to fight our wars. That is all I was saying.

*******

I disagree to my very core and don't see eye to eye with you on this at all. That said, I respect your right to express yourself here and refuse to attack you personally.

I disagree, tibb.

It is a form of bravery to live one's life in an honest, upstanding, normal manner. To keep putting one foot in front of the other, and doing so with humor and joy, in spite of injustice and pain and suffering and all the terrible things that are simply a part of the human condition. I shared what I did because, at least to me, it paints a picture of people who were lights on this earth. It takes a form of bravery to be that light to others.

"I disagree to my very core and don't see eye to eye with you on this at all. That said, I respect your right to express yourself here and refuse to attack you personally"

Well said mimi, if we all behaved this way, there would be no wars.

"I don't expect them to follow our laws of war. It's not our laws of war that should prevent people from intentionally targeting civilians going about routine daily life or that should prevent people from dressing their 8 year old up in a suicide bomb and sending him to kill infidels... it's basic human decency."

Of course it would be basic human decency. I don't know what your point is. They are 'evil and monstrous' psychopaths. You can't expect them to consider anything but their own causes or to go about achieving them in any way that works for them.

Is war and the casualties of life that result ever human and decent? Gotta wonder about that line of thinking too.

"I disagree to my very core and don't see eye to eye with you on this at all. That said, I respect your right to express yourself here and refuse to attack you personally"

Well said mimi, if we all behaved this way, there would be no wars."

Exactly. It is always evident on forums why people can't get along.

I disagree with lisa on the term "brave" but I see where she's coming from. I think we process some aspects of this tragic situation differently.

I tend to not romanticize people I don't know, i.e.: soldiers, victims like in the Paris attacks. For all I know, and undoubtedly, some are icky people, so I stick with what I know, which is that I'm glad we've got people willing to join the military to protect those of us who are not, that attacks like the one in Paris are acts of evil...

mimipadv

No it isn't. But you choose to take it that way for the sake of argument and animosity for anyone who doesn't hang on your words and opinions to follow as their own.

******

No need for ad hominem attacks here. Whoa, simmer down.

I commented on what your wrote. Not YOU. Big difference."

It wasn't an attack, it was a response to your comment. Your posts in response to mine read of animosity towards opinions you don't like - a need to simmer down as you say. Commentary, as well, that more generally a lot of that goes on in these discussions. But I understand how you read it that way, completely directed at you or you as a person. I did not appreciate being accused of this:

"That's a slap in the face to every parent who has lost a child defending our country....'

That is your interpretation, not mine, so don't attribute it to me, thank you.

Now this is a personal comment - tibbrix liking that comment is laughable as he/she is constantly calling people on the forum names and other derrogatory remarks during hot discussions. It really brings the discsussion down and it would be much more constructive conversation if that would stop.

I don't know if anyone read the link I posted above, but I think this is a good article by Dr. Schwyzer on the language aspect of bravery and cowardice in relation to terrorism.

September 24, 2013

Hugo Schwyzer ponders why the charge of fearfulness has become the worst epithet we can hurl at those who perpetrate evil.

Why do we call terrorists who are willing to die for their cause ‘cowards?’

I think the reason parents and this country are proud of people serving and view military service as noble is BECAUSE of our tactics and BECAUSE of what we are fighting for. If our country's military started using the tactics of ISIS, I don't think parents would continue to be proud of their children for joining, I don't think the vast majority of people would continue to join, and I don't think the current military members would continue to fight.

Wars always have atrocities, but both tactics and goals are what make a war right or wrong. You must try to fight for your cause while still maintaining basic human decency or your actions, no matter how noble, cannot be justified.

The fact is, these people either want to convert us or kill us- and they are willing to go to inhumane lengths to do it and nothing we can offer them is going to prevent that (which was my original point). That's why kindness won't work to fix it, and that's why I don't believe compromise will work. The people who believe these things, and do these things, must be destroyed.

It probably goes without saying (and yes, I know we're talking in the context of parent-child relationship), but we don't have "children" serving our country. We recruit adults. Terrorist organizations do recruit children. Did anyone else hear the piece on NPR this morning with Najibullah Quraish speaking on ISIS in Afghanistan? Chilling. Children as young as 3 and 4 taught to recite "jihad" and quizzed on automatic weapons. Children slightly older being shown videos of beheadings. Of course this is outright brainwashing, which is not at all the same as parents here teaching their children to love and honor their country.

You are right auntjen. I just edited my comment to say "people serving" instead of "children serving" because that is a VERY important distinction.

We also have voluntary military service, and even when we had the draft, we did not say to 14 year olds: "go behead people for our cause, or we'll kill you and your entire family." Nor do we ask children to kill their own parents for praying, as the boy describes in that article I linked to above:

The children were also shown a video of how to behead people - and Raghab [age 14] was told if he saw his Yazidi mother or father praying, he should behead them too.

Okay then... We don't agree with all angles but we all agree this is horrible. But, let me tell ya if something really horrible happens on American soil by these murderes I think we will all band together as one.

"I think the reason parents and this country are proud of children serving and view military service as noble is BECAUSE of our tactics and BECAUSE of what we are fighting for."

Of course it is, for those who believe in the war, or in going to war.

Thou Shalt not Kill.

If someone believes that as part of their religion, or simply as a part of their humanity and human decency, there is a huge disconnect. And the requirement by a government to force people with those beliefs and core values to serve and to kill others, whether for the greater good or not, and the consequences if they refuse, well....

But, let me tell ya if something really horrible happens on American soil by these murderes I think we will all band together as one.

I don't know if that's true. We are already so fractured politically, and I'm just thinking back to the 9-11 aftermath ... There was perhaps an initial emotional response of "us against them" but in the weeks and months that followed, with military action and politicizing of causes, we seemed to become more and more polarized. I don't think it would be any different, were it all to happen again.

I hope that isn't true Auntjen. It would be so very sad. Edited to add: it took me years to get my husband to understand that individually as a couple we have flaws. But, by using each other's strengths we become a supper power. Same goes for America as a whole.

I think it depends what you mean by come together. We'd donate, we'd help the victims, we'd have brave people who run towards the danger to help- because Americans, on the whole, are good people who all love their country and who love freedom and who love their neighbors.

And then, we'd all retreat to our respective political corners and have a terrible fight over what to do next..

Which is sick because each corner has flaws. I'm not naïve enough to think that would ever go away completely but hope it doesn't escalate to the point if there are a bunch of machine gunned Americans lying bleeding to death in the road that survivors will call out asking for a sign to determined if they are dems or repubs before an attempted rescue.

I don't know if that's true. We are already so fractured politically,

*******

Everything seems so polarized to me. Politics, race...

I don't recall it ever being this bad. It's depressing.

There's not one comment section that I've read on the Paris attack that doesn't quickly dissolve into left/right wing poo slinging.

I will say (no politically one way or another) that this world is hurting. The thousands of refugees running from this terror ( yet a few terrorists slipping in) is causing them no place to go. It's like a rock and a hard place.

You know, I've been wondering why it is that we don't speak (much) of atrocities in Baghdad, but we rally around Paris. I do not believe for one minute that it's down to us being racists, or only caring about "white people" (I would imagine there were people of many different colors killed in Paris on Friday), but I think it's because we have an alliance with France that we do not have with countries in the Middle East, and many of us have experiential "claims" on Paris, having visited, received an education there, having friends and family living there, etc. We identify with Parisians because they are in many ways so much like us. It's neither right nor wrong, IMO. It just is what it is.

That said, yes - we most certainly should pray for our entire world. Boldly pray for peace for this planet.

States saying no to refugees.
Texas
Michigan
Louisiana
Indiana
Arkansas
Alabama
Massachusetts
Ohio
Arizona
Mississippi
Iowa
Illinois
N Carolina

Florida

Wisconsin

Is this right? Now it's 17 states.

New Happhire

Maine

I wonder if it isn't that we've become numb and desensitized to violence in the middle east, so the press is less likely to cover it. Which is a shame. We need to have this information readily available rather than have to hunt for it.

I don't believe it is racism either.

How many Americans do you think can find Baghdad on a map? It's different with Paris. We know Paris- we've seen it in movies, we've visited it, we celebrate its romance.... It's like the difference between a relative of ours being attacked and someone we barely know being attacked. We feel bad either way, but one hits much harder than the other.

(I'm not saying it's good we can't find Baghdad on a map... but that's the perils of a populace that is just not that interested in remaining informed about global events and the perils of a media that is more interested in ratings and pushing narratives than in educating the public).

"Thou Shalt Not Kill."

That is not what the Bible says in its original Hebrew. The original text reads:

Thou Shalt Not Murder.

Meaning murder in the exact way that we understand it in English. Killing as in execution, mercy killing, self-defense, and in war is sanctioned and expected, for the preservation of one's self, one's family, and one's country.

I agree. We are used to constant conflict in the Middle East. We are also far more familiar with the Western world that we stop and pay close attention as it is closer to home.

I found this to be some great food for though.

ISIL and what they want you to think

This link may work better for those of you who do not have Facebook accounts.ISIL is Weak

Every morning with my coffee I am on the computer looking at my favorite sites, one is CNN. After reading everything on there today, including Russia is now bombing ISIS, the video that warns the states that ISIS is going to attack Washington next..... are we heading towards a World War III?

RoseAbbey, no, we are not, because ISIL is not a state and doesn't have the military that, say, Hitler and Japan had. They rely on terrorist attacks, i.e.: individual incidents, which take planning, time, then they run and hide for a while. They're not an army, and in fact it is dangerous for them to become as organized as that.

RoseAbbey, at times, it's good to disconnect from the news and media madness. See the above link from aktillery9.

I know I need a media diet plan as I'm prone to getting fixated on the 24-7 news cycle.

I would say turn the TV "News" media off entirely, other than PBS and BBC and al Jazeera.

I'd read McClatchy, NY Times, and listen to NPR/BBC and watch BBC/al Jazeera/PBS News Hour. But skip the MSNCB/FOX/CNN/NBC/ABC...garbage. Nothing there.

My husband is in Europe right now and I had to turn off all news yesterday and go back to my "evening news" only to keep it all in perspective.

I spoke with him yesterday and asked what the atmosphere over there was like. He said, ironically, it was worse in the U.S. airport before he left because of all the TVs tuned into CNN. Over there, he says, people are going about their business without a 24-hour ticker in their faces and are much more calm. Alert, yes, but not in a state angst.

So much fear-mongering here in this country. So freakin' MUCH of it. I know there are dangers out there - we ALL know there are dangers out there -- but we become paralyzed at the very thought of such things, whereas others in the world where the threat is imminent simply put one foot in front of the other and keep on keeping on. Honestly, we (the collective "we") are ridiculous, and we have allowed the media to make us this way.

auntjen, what I really dislike is how, when this sort of thing happens to other people, others make it about themselves. Ugh. I hate that!

Saw this on fb today about a bbc report:

"The unspeakable acts of terrorism committed in Paris this weekend has prompted a disgusting but unfortunately inevitable wave of Muslim-blaming and Islamophobia among the ignorant. They appear to be entirely unaware that the majority of terrorist attacks are carried out against Muslims, that the refugees are fleeing such violence, and that there were many Muslims among the victims of the Paris attacks.

Perhaps this will change some minds. The BBC recently published the story of “Safer,” an Algerian immigrant and a Muslim who was working the bar at Cafe Nostra in the 11th arrondissement (district) when the first attacks hit. “Safer” risked his life by diving into a hail of bullets in order to save two injured women at the cafe.

“I was at the counter. We heard explosions — really loud bangs,” Safer told the BBC. “Everyone started screaming, glass rained down on us. It was awful. There was glass all over the place, hitting us in our faces. I saw two women out on the terrace had been hit. One in the wrist and in the other in the shoulder. They were bleeding really badly. I picked them up and rushed them downstairs to the basement. I sat with them and tried to stop the bleeding. As we were downstairs, we could hear the gunfire continuing above. It was terrifying.”

He condemned the attacks and the terrorists, saying that “real Muslims are not made for killing people. These are criminals.” It is vitally important in this critical time that we do not fall into paranoia and discrimination, no matter how hard conservatives howl for blood. Punishing Muslim citizens for the actions of terrorists only plays into their hands, strengthening their cause and dividing our nations from within. In these troubling times, unity and calm are our best weapons in the face of terror and hate."