I'm very touched by your missive. Yes, most of us need to put ourselves in the shoes of others before we judge.

I'm sure that mom has felt the stare of eyeballs on her many times.

Bless them and bless you.

Oh auntjen I would have reacted exactly as you. I have tried to teach my kids that they don't know everyone's story and that they just have to slow down before jumping to conclusions.

My dads favourite saying was that it's too bad that for some people the only exercise they get is jumping to conclusions.

No reason to feel ashamed; if the situation were different I think your annoyance would have been apt. Parents do have an obligation in certain settings to remove children who are disruptive.

OTOH, I think as a society there needs to be some tolerance for some disruptions (whether a very small child for a short time, or the situation you witnessed, or someone a little senile talking loudly, etc etc). Otherwise we are shutting these people out from some wonderful experiences, which on balance seems a very high price for us to have total silence. How wonderful that he enjoyed it, there may not be so many joys in his day to day life.

AuntJen, you have really touched a nerve. My DH and I sing in a 'Living Christmas Tree' every year and have done so for about 15 years now, so we see the audience from high above. Our production is much as you describe, and we start rehearsals after Labor day, as does the orchestra and handbells. It truly is a gift to the community as there is no charge. We have 7 performances (including one abbreviated performance and one short one for children) between this Thursday and Sunday. The church provides a free nursery with wireless pagers in case the parents are needed, yet some still bring their children into the 'adult' performances.

Several of the performances are now Livestreamed. Yes, it is somewhat disconcerting to hear a child call out or cry in a moment of silence or quiet during a song. But then you see what joy is brought to people's faces, you hear the clapping, cheers, & 'bravo's' at the end, and somehow you ignore whatever is going on and concentrate on the message YOU are bringing and it doesn't matter.

No, you were right to have the feelings you did. After years and years of experience working with severely disabled young teens and adults, my feeling is this: they deserve to be treated like everyone else. Not better.

Yes, he could have given a bit more slack, I can go along with that, but, if it wasn't woking, he should have been taken out a while with one of the parents.

Sorry, but I was always a stickler when it came to bringing any disabled population out on public outings. We practiced, practiced and practiced some more. If an event was deemed inappropriate after all of that , then something else was figured out.

Please google Stella Young's TED talk to further understand my point.

I make a distinction in my tolerance of noise levels for adult targeted vs child targeted events. I took my godchildren to a childrens' play last week and there was someone similarly disruptive but the play was fast paced and loud enough to be enjoyable. And you expect some interruptions at a childrens' performance.

Our symphony stages an additional performance of all their family concerts that is "sensory friendly” especially for those with autism or developmental disabilities. The lights are on a bit higher, motion around the room is encouraged and the max volume is reduced for people who don't like loud noises. I think it's a wonderful idea! I would like to attend one of the performances to see how it goes.

On the other hand, the last family friendly symphony concert I went to, a mother let her baby play with her jangling metal bangles throughout the WHOLE CONCERT - and that baby could NOT keep time. That was a whole lot less cute than the toddler who wandered back to stand beside the bassist and nod along (our principal bass is the sweetest man possible).

Our choir's Christmas concert this weekend was family friendly, singalong encouraged, and we had a boys' choir as musical guests. At one point I made the mistake of looking down while we were performing and the boys were singing along and dancing in their pews -- I got so teary-eyed I had to stop singing!

Thank you all for your thoughts.

I'm feeling quite emotional about this, so perhaps should refrain from commenting further right now. I will just say that had this been at a different venue - a concert hall, for example - I might feel differently. But it was at church, and in spite of the formality of the evening, I feel that allowing the boy to remain and participate there (of all places) was more than appropriate.

Ellendi, I will have to go look at the TED talk. I never thought about your point, but I think I understand.

I find myself with similar thoughts, auntjen, during regular church services. Our pastor ignores them for the most part, but sometimes he will comment on the noise with thanks and appreciation for the parents bringing the children to church. And then I'm ashamed of my bad thoughts.

You had no way of knowing. I have been reminded of this verse/story from the bible so often recently. At our church we have a praise band - they are truly wonderful. However, several of the older generation do not like the music - the change really. I get that, I truly do. BUT, it's not like the old hymns or other songs are being cut out, we have a nice mix. At thebeginning of the service the praise band does a song with the children, who come down front and participate. There is often movement to the songs and the kids love it. After the song, they are dismissed and go to another location for their own service. It warms my heart to see these little ones taking part, learning the songs, etc. What DOES NOT warm my heart are a select few who refuse to stand while the children's song is going on. I've heard the comment several times "why can't they have their song downstairs? Why do we have to hear it?" The bible says make a joyful noise. What is a joyful noise to one may not be to another. Why can't we all just make our joyful noise and leave others alone???!!!

auntjen...thank you for sharing this. Very touching.

littlebug...we had a priest that is long gone. But, he encouraged families with young children to stay out of the "cry room" and participate with the rest of us. He enjoyed the sounds of the young children even if it meant listening to a little crying.

I don't see how thinking you saw a child in a stroller (when it turned out to be a wheelchair) is making an assumption or jumping to conclusions. You looked, you saw. Once you got a better view, your personal feelings about the situation changed and it was clear to you that you felt differently for the child and for the family under those circumstances.

I also think that, still, it is not even clear how handicapped the child was, whether s/he was capable of better manners and control or not. Just because someone is physically handicapped doesn't mean they are mentally handicapped; and just because someone is mentally handicapped doesn't mean they are incapable of understanding good manners and public space voices. Lots of kids are both hard to control and have trouble controlling themselves. It's part of growing up. It is also perfectly normal to have parents teaching their children how to clap at performances. I don't think that is unusual at all.

It is quite commonplace for children to be disruptive today and for parents to allow them to be. This is one reason people get annoyed and that is a natural response. I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting children to be taught manners by their parents, whether they are handicapped or not. When they don't, it unfortunately carries right into adulthood. Should we expect silence and a perfect performance on their part? Of course not. That would be pretty unrealistic.

DH reminded me that so often, parents grow so desensitized to the sounds of their own children that they don't recognize how those sounds affect others. I think of all the times I've been out shopping and have had to hear some kid just wailing non-stop, while the parents continue to shop as though nothing at all were taking place. I get it - kids have meltdowns in public places and parents can't very well load them up back into the car, head home, and just try to return another time to buy the weekly groceries. Ok, they probably could do that, but it wouldn't be a productive or efficient use of their time, so they keep on keeping on. But I also do think they sometimes become somewhat "deaf" to the disruption as well.

I also think of certain times when I've seen a child acting out in a certain way and said to myself, "He's WAY too old to be behaving like that." And maybe he is, or maybe he's like the little boy that my friend lost a few years back, who was severely autistic and not verbal, but communicated with loud grunts and moans.

I guess I'm just realizing that it's not my place to judge a situation. I don't have to like the screaming or moaning or grunting (who would?), but I don't have to think hateful thoughts about the parent or the child either. Honestly, I can become so stressed with anger that my moments are ruined - just as was happening during the Christmas performance, until I realized that there was nothing malicious behind the disruption.

I know a little more about that family now. Their situation touches me deeply, and I'd really like to do something nice for them for Christmas - possibly even anonymously.

I've mentioned my developmentally disabled niece here before. We try to involve her in many entertainment opportunities and have done so since she was toddler age. As she grew older (she's now 25), some events became too much for her (over stimulated because of volume, lighting or who knows what). She used to travel so easily, for example. Then she started becoming disruptive when boarding airplanes because she wants to sit in the first open seat she sees, which is in business/first class, of course. While she's a tiny woman, she can really put up a fight and that's not going to work when other people are trying to board so no more airline travel with her.

Anyway, we certainly try to take her to events where we're pretty confident all will be fine but we don't always correctly anticipate her reaction. She is non-verbal and can understand probably 95% of what is said to her but can't tell us what she is thinking, beyond nodding or shaking her head and pointing.

We've certainly experienced our share of disapproval and nasty looks, some of it justified. But we've also experienced the greatest kindnesses, too. For example, we were at a neighborhood festival last summer where local bands were playing. Celia loves music and got up and started her version of dancing, which is probably best described as a very funky style. After a few minutes, the lead singer stepped down into the audience (still singing) and finished the song dancing with Celia. I can't tell you how happy Celia was. She just clapped and clapped.

So thank all of you who stop to see what is actually happening around you. It's hard to express how much your kindness and tolerance mean to us.

Pugga, that just warms my heart to think of the singer coming down from the stage to dance with Celia! I would imagine there were some misty eyes as the audience witnessed that small, but mighty, act of kindess.

Oh, auntjen, you can't even imagine. I'm sitting here practically sobbing just remembering it.

auntjen said:

"I would imagine there were some misty eyes as the audience witnessed that small, but mighty, act of kindness."

There are definitely misty eyes here after reading Pugga's post.

If only people would act with kindness as easily as they act with anger......

(((((Pugga)))))

I appreciate you sharing this situation, auntjen. It's a reminder to us all to be more patient and understanding.

I had a somewhat similar situation a few months back. I was at an indoor garden show and someone kept screaming. The noise reverberated in the metal building. Quite a few of us were looking around wondering what was going on and then getting annoyed. Then an older couple came around the corner, I'd guess in their late 60's-mid 70's, pushing a large adult stroller. One of those kind that is adjusted to lean back with padding and raised legs that I know is often used when people can't control their physical motions and might throw themselves out of a regular wheelchair. In it was probably their son who looked to be in his 30's. He did scream, and they would pat him and gently remind him to calm down. But he was smiling and screaming at the pretty flowers.

All of us looked at each other with faces that said we all felt a tad ashamed of ourselves. And I think we all shared compassion for loving parents who have probably been caring for this son for decades and worry about his future care when they are no longer able to provide it.

And once I realized that the screams were those of joy at what he was seeing, I realized how much most of us take things for granted. I mean, I love flowers but I can't remember the last time a flower has elicited such a primal response of pure joy from me. The whole experience, on many levels, made me realize how much I take for granted.

ETA: Pugga, that is a beautiful story. Makes me misty-eyed, too.

Wow.

Now funky has made me cry. And has also made me think about how we "normal people" tend to hold such a tight rein on our emotions that we actually feel ashamed if we bark out a laugh or cry openly when something moving touches our hearts.

Screams of joy at seeing flowers! I absolutely love this.

Well said Pugga! I can very much relate to that story

Theres no need to feel ashamed that you had one reaction to a situation you perceived ---not assumed---at the time, then changed that POV when you perceived it was a different situation. I agree that in a church we are all there to glorify god, not the priest, readers, choir, guest soloists, etc. its a very different venue than a performance.

FWIW, i have a huge problem with church services that are more "Christian entertainment" or bible study than worship. The former is for the aggrandizement of the lerformers and the latter is for the minister to show off in front of a crowd. Lengthy sermons cum lectures belong in Sunday School, imo! Jesus basically bade his followers to do two things to worship God.....say the Lord's prayer, and to remember Him in a communion ceremony. Everything else is filler.

I am glad the child was included in your service. His presence obviously had more of a powerful message to you than the rest of the service and may have affected others similarly. Think what you would have missed had he not been there....

"Christian entertainment" ... That's been something of an issue for me as well. Last year we were very drawn to a non-denominational church in which performance art was taken to a new level. I'd never been in a church with a full "rock" band and special, over-the-top productions on a weekly basis. At first, DH and I were very drawn to that aspect of the church - me, especially, since I have long loved music and theater and this allowed me to experience worship in a completely new and different way. It was wonderful ... for a season. But then it began to feel as though a concerted effort to make the gospel "cool" was underway, and slowly but surely I began to feel something rather insidious building inside me when I came away from those "mega" worship services. DH and I finally faced the reality that the church was the place for us only for a season, as I said. We now attend a much more traditional church with casual services as an option and find it suits us perfectly.

I'm still a bit on the fence about the "pop culturalization" of Christianity, but I am trying to keep an open mind. I do understand that younger people are not likely to be attracted to many aspects of traditional services, and if they can be reached using relevant methods without distorting the gospel message, then who am I to judge?

I agree with your last statement completely, Jen--- and I also don't judge how people worship, I just contend that a lot of what goes on in churches isnt worship, per se. Its entertainment. And thats fine, just call it entertainment :/). I dont think it is ultimately satisfying as a substitute for worship, as you experienced yourself. Worhship can be modern or traditional or solo or in a group setting or in many other forms and settings. But if people clap for a singer or go mad for a particular charismatic preacher, thats worship of the worst sort----worship of a person, not God.

Sorry for the topic derailment, as you can tell its something of a bugaboo for me!

I understand, and I agree with you. At the aforementioned "over the top" church, we were treated to a surprise performance by a very well known singer famous for a certain pop song. Completely unexpected, and understandably, we were all wowed. The applause and cheers and whistles were definitely for that person's performance, his longevity in the industry, the beloved song. I was absolutely blown away at the time, but was left wondering if that was the appropriate venue for such a performance. Again - am I judging? I don't know. I'm not sure where my discomfort comes from, exactly. But it's there.

The above examples are some of the reasons why I no longer attend services. I choose to commune with God in my own back yard. It's a more appropriate venue for me.

...and yet, somehow, I've always felt awkward not applauding after a performance in church...I suppose you go up to the performers afterward and thank them personally, but somehow the silence always seems, I dunno, like a burden of silence. Not that I'm a church-goer, so it's not an issue often for me...only weddings and funerals...

I went many years not attending church services. Now that we've found a church where we feel at home, I find I really enjoy the fellowship with other believers. Also, I personally believe that there is evidence of scriptural exhortation to gather corporately for worship. Your mileage may vary. ;-)

I enjoy a bit of applause in church. "Make a joyful noise" - and I find applause to be quite cheery!

Oh I gathered corporately for the first 18 years of my life. Even attended a Lutheran school through the 8th grade. Like I said, I feel closer to God without the restrictions of man-made walls.

I don't think I have ever witnessed applause at a church service. That seems very strange to me. I like sermons, the teaching part of a service. I have never felt anyone was showing off. I don't care for instilling fear in people but that is another story. I've also enjoyed some of the newer music in youth services and no one struck me as trying to be a rock star. Everyone has seemed moved by the music (performers and listeners) and completely engaged in its message and in joining together to uplift spirits and spread the word.

P.S. I do not like the mega churches seen on tv. Those are certainly performances, productions and involve huge egos. They are just weird money making machines, IMO.

I sing in one of the choirs at my Episcopal church. It's the middle Sunday service, more family-oriented (Rite II), so we sing a wide variety of anthems, from gospel to celtic to baroque and even earlier. It isn't the norm to clap after an anthem. On occasion, if there was a rousing gospel hymn, applause would erupt. Then people seemed to think it was required after every anthem. It's an offering, a prayer, not a performance. Once one person starts clapping, it becomes contagious, but lots of people were very uncomfortable with it. Now we have a little sentence in our program, following the anthem listing, something to the effect of Please refrain from applauding, but after the service, do let choir members know how much you enjoyed the anthem. Or words to that effect.

We had a former rector who thought a good way to get younger people to our church was to have a jazz mass once a month. OMG, was it horrible. When they tried to play processionals out of the hymnal, they sounded like polkas. Some of the most vocal dissenters were the teens who found the music appalling. One Sunday it was all Beatles. It was horrific. It did not have the intended effect of bringing in new people, only pissing off the ones who were already there. Happily it's behind us.

Polka processionals! LOL! I can only imagine what that must've sounded like ... And the horrified, embarrassed faces of the teens!

Auntjen, High Church Anglican hymns just don't play well with a sax, drum kit and bass. They met in the middle and a polka issued forth.

I'm just noodling around some of the other forums. The Kitchen Table and Cooking forums are my regular hangouts. (Hi, Blfenton)

Wow this post brought tears to my eyes. As been mentioned it's so hard not to quickly judge without realizing all of the facts.

I work the elections, and at one, a little boy was crying and pulling and was quite upset. His mom came to my table to get her voting card. She explained that he is autistic and is terrified of ceiling fans. There were several, and they were all running. I was in awe of the work and struggles that she experiences every day with her young son, yet she made a point to come out and vote. I thought about her and the little boy for days afterwards. Poor little guy.

I used to be very judgmental toward kids who didn't behave in church, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. Then I had a grandson who developed Tourette's syndrome at the age of two. He had a fairly moderate case as Tourettes goes but he couldn't always sit still or control his vocal tics. He would have had to be kept at home all the time to keep from annoying people. I was very humbled by this and have retired the dirty look I reserved for parents who didn't control their children. There is a reason why Jesus said not to judge. We don't have all the facts. AuntJen, I'm particularly impressed with how understanding you are of children and their parents. Often people without children are the worst critics.