I'm just giving back what I've been given..

...considering its origins, everyone in Charleston should be growing it [hint]...

I'm not jealous, much :D

Marlorena, I do have 'Champneys' Pink Cluster', but no 'Blush Noisette' yet. 'CPC' certainly hails from the Charleston area (technically, Ravenel, SC), but I think there is still some uncertainty about whether Philippe Noisette raised 'Blush Noisette' in Charleston and then sent his brother Louis Noisette an actual plant (or cuttings) of it, or if he sent seeds from 'CPC' and then Louis raised 'BN' from seed in France. So sometimes one brother or another is credited with 'Blush Noisette', and I wasn't there, so can't say.

'Champneys' Pink Cluster' is also strongly fragrant, of course, but I can't yet compare its scent to 'Blush Noisette'. One of these days, though...

Virginia

I just want to add that in my garden, Blush Noisette has been the best rose when it comes to wafting fragrance. Cornelia comes in second. I have had many fragrant roses, but these two provide fragrance from a good distance as no others have done.

Molly

...I've got Cornelia too but yet to discern any notable scent from it, just a dullish musky scent to my nose.... so perhaps it can only get better but I couldn't compare it to Blush Noisette...

.. my understanding of BN is that the one we grow in Europe emanates from a different seedling to the one in the States which is thought to be the true form....

...regardless, last summer Beales were giving them away as a free rose if you placed an order, so now I've got 2...

...I don't recall ever seeing Champney's Pink Cluster here in any garden I've visited, so I shall make a point of looking out for it...

'Bouquet Tout Fait' is reputed to be even more strongly scented than the "original" noisettes. As I don't have either 'Blush Noisette' or 'Champney's Pink Cluster', I can't compare, but I can say that just a few blooms of BTF can have noticeable fragrance when walking by, also. I hope BN does well in your garden, Nik, igniting a Noisette mania that encompasses BTF, which needs to be in more gardens of the world...My BTF appears to have finally settled in and be taking off this season -- very exciting.

Another champion wafter in my garden is 'Jaune Desprez' -- the scent of its spring flush overwhelms the entire back yard for a couple of weeks, at least. My 'Cornelia' is right next to JD, so I haven't noticed that it wafts -- JD wipes out any other scent when it is in bloom.

Marlorena,

The Hooks supposedly have the true CPC. At least that is what they maintain.

..oh, so I see..... and they have 3 versions of Blush Noisette.... there seems to be any number of these.... perhaps I should call mine 'Noisette Carnée'... you know, just to be rebellious....

Marlorena, so far, I am quite pleased with my 'Champneys' Pink Cluster', and it has very good rebloom "throughout the season", as they say. John Champneys was a Loyalist in the American Revolution, and that cost him, but it seems that he came back here after things were not so unpleasant for him, and purchased land that wasn't too far from the John Frasers, one of whom introduced 'Frasers Pink Musk', which may be another early Noisette, or might have been the same rose as 'CPC'.

I wouldn't be surprised if your 'Blush Noisette' were different... there has been much confusion of the clustering sorts, but I am fond of that sort of rose, especially when my allergies let up enough that I can smell that amazing fragrance that so many of them have. Some folks object to the way the old flowers often hang on and turn brown... I think "used tissues" is a phrase that's been employed. I don't mind it; I find it picturesque, like an old Dutch still-life or something, but if we all admired the same thing, that would be dull. Here is "Mrs Keay's Pink Noisette", in hot weather from two summers ago at a public garden in Orangeburg, SC:

....such a pretty bloom, but I'd just have to cut those off Virginia.... or at least run my fingers through them to dislodge.... it's their only failing for me.... I have to admit it irritates me quite a bit so it's fun to read of your take on it and that you can find something to admire....and I can see what you mean actually...

...interesting pocket history about Mr Champneys..... I suppose I should be pleased to hear he was a Loyalist...

...does this photo here from Beales look the same as your CPC?... I might have asked you this before...

No, Beales' version doesn't look like mine... it has many more petals. Pretty thing, though.

I'm a skeptic at heart, so I wondered if my 'CPC' was likely to be the real deal, but there was some sort of Noisette study done hereabouts, and apparently what's in commerce here as 'CPC' had the right 'markers' for being a parent of 'Blush Noisette'. Nothing is certain in this world, but that's pretty good.

Back in the day, a few rosarians protested that the Noisette class should be called Champneyana, but since that ending 's' was left out, I'm guessing it could've been Champneysiana or something worse. 'Noisette' is at least easier.

Hmmm, now I'm thinking that it should probably be "Mrs Keays' Pink Noisette", rather than "Mrs Keay's PN"... Apostrophes can be treacherous things.

Virginia

...let us be thankful they stuck with Noisette, but I feel for Champney here though, his input seems generally overlooked... this reminds me somewhat of Alan Turing and the Enigma machine, whilst being convenient to ignore the crucial Polish deciphering that took place before Turing got in on it.... but of course he expanded on it greatly... as did the Noisette's....

...''Mrs Keays'...'' ...''Florence Bowers'...'' otherwise they would be Mrs Keay and Florence Bower,... which they're not.... so I think that's right...

...if nothing else, it keeps us on our toes, so to speak....

I think that wonderful little book about Charleston and the Noisettes does justice to Champneys (needs a final 's').

...is that the one by Virginia Kean? I was looking at it the other day on Amazon... it seemed ever so interesting, I think I should like to have it at some point..

...Champneys...of course....I must remember... it's all so trying...

Yes, it's edited by V. Kean but there are lots of contributors. I loved it. One learns about the Noisettes but also about a bit of American colonial history. I think it is worth the modest outlay.

...oh that sounds good....I've just ordered it as Amazon had one left [more on the way]...

Talking about enabling.. lol

Virginia -- I'm not sure when the name "Mrs. Keays Pink Noisette" came along.

Mrs. Keays herself grew, and wrote about that rose under the name commonly used in her area, among people from whom she got it:
"Faded Pink Monthly".

I can see where that isn't as commercially-attractive a name, but it IS the original and historically-correct study name.

BTW, she herself thought that the rose was probably "Blush Noisette". Doug Seidel, when he grew it, said that it compared very well to the rose in commerce as 'Marie Pavie' ('Marie Pavic') but for the fact that it was a larger plant.

It's too bad it wasn't included in the Charleston Noisette Study. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that it may have been left out deliberately, as Seidel did not appear to think it was one.

"Faded Pink Monthly"

I absolutely fell for CPC. Now I am in the process of growing other noisettes but none has my heart like the first <3 I have the book on Noisettes and found it fascinating, and reassuring that most of what is being sold in the US as 'Blush Noisette" and CPC are very much related to each other and have characteristics that point to being the original or seedling of each of these two.

Jeri, I used the "MKPN" name because that's what it was labelled at the garden.

Does 'Marie Pavic' hang onto her old flowers in that same way? I've never seen it in person...

Virginia

I know. That name has been coming into general usage, but it obscures the true history of the rose . . . and that ALWAYS irritates me. :-)

As to 'Marie Pavic' -- the one I had about 30 years ago was from Heirloom, and while it was very nice, it was probably not 'Marie Pavic.'

Seidel said that "Faded Pink Monthly" and 'Marie Pavic' were almost alike, but for the markedly greater size of FPM. I wish I could cite the article, but I cannot. Connie Hilker, who knew Seidel well, might have observations.

But FWIW, we have the rose today because Seidel went back to the ruins of Keays Maryland home, and recovered the rose there.

I would not exactly be shocked to hear that 'Marie Pavic' had some Noisette Ancestry, for all that she's not very tall or prickly, but as I said, I have not yet made her acquaintance. She's lovely in photos, certainly.

I'm glad Rev. Seidel was able to rescue some plant material from Mrs Keays' former garden; reading her book makes me wish I could go rose rustling, too; it also makes me wish that all of her rose finds were still around...

Virginia

How hardy is this rose? I love a good fragrant rose.

Grace e

I wanted to bring up another noisette that has this wonderful fragrance, 'Jeanne d'Arc', not to be confused with the alba, polyantha, tea, moss or hybrid perpetual. I got my daughter one in Texas and she too was taken by that exotic mix of Musk & China.

My Blush Noisette had downy mildew so I took it out years ago. I don't remember scent one way or the other. For intense fragrance in my garden right now, I linger near Daphne odora.

Grace - I've seen reports that Blush Noisette is rated down to zone 6, which made me willing to risk trying it up against the house on the zone 6 side of my house. Not a great chance that it'll do much wafting in our dry climate even if it survives our winters with enough cane to bloom (Mme. Alfred Carriere survives fine but won't bloom without surviving cane). Still if it wafts in dry Texas for Molly it's definitely worth hoping.

Cynthia

That's odd Folly -- because those roses have NEVER mildewed here. (And until the last year or two, we have always been The Mildew Capital Of The World.)

I guess it's really true that the ONLY recommendation you can really count as significant is one from your next-door neighbor.

For me, now, even 'Mme. Lambard' has quit mildewing!

Jerri, downy mildew is a very different beast than PM.

Jeri, it was Downy Mildew, not the powdery fungus.

We did the DNA study on the series here at Florida Southern College. As suggested above, yes, the rose grown and sold in the USA has the correct genetics to be a daughter of Old Blush and the true musk, Rosa moschata. All commercial sources of this rose in the US (that we were able to get plants from ) are selling the same clone. Also, those nurseries are also all selling the same clone of 'Blush Noisette', and its genetics show that one of its parents is the rose we grow as CPC. So while that does not absolutely prove that the two roses are correctly named and sold here, it does strongly suggest that.

Thank you for clarifying what I so muddily phrased. I think it is wonderful that these studies were done on what is truly an American rose. Thank you.

DOWNY mildew, of course, can destroy about anything. One benefit of heat and drought is that we don't see much downy mildew anymore.

I think I'd give Blush Noisette a try, I am in zone 6a, it's rated for 6b. I wish Chris is here on this thread, he'd know if it's ok for here.

I always think -- if you REALLY want to grow a rose, TRY it.
Heck, we've grown Belle Isis, and Crested Moss, Mme. Hardy, and Henri Martin -- Variegata di Bologna, and Rosa Mundi.
We haven't grown them successfully, over time, but we have grown them for long enough to find out what they were and . . . why we shouldn't be growing them.
I don't regret having grown any of them -- because we LEARNED from them.

Yes Jeri! :-) Burling added it to my spring list. :-)

I like to learn from other people's mistakes, save me time and money. Lol. Just like buying a scooter/mortorcycle, I'd check out the reviews and other riders complains before buying a bike. Except I totally felt in love with one Italian bike-Piaggio MP3, I somehow ended up with 3 of them, different colors and different sizes of engines.......made a mistake right there, one of them is too big for me to handle, still parked in my garage, still love to look at it. it's a beautiful machine......I should read more reviews from lady riders, it's too heavy for girls.

Jeri, Wha's your experience with mme Hardy? Your input would help these people out.....

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/chill-hours-for-damask-madame-hardy-dsvw-vd~3700637

Re: 'Mme. Hardy' -- I grew it for four years, and never saw a single bloom.

For anyone in a milder climate, I recommend 'Mme. Plantier' as a better-suited substitute for 'Mme. Hardy.'

Plantier WILL bloom for you.