Most people like Electrolux ovens.

The ovens will have the greatest amount of difference and make the biggest impact on your life, so talk to owners of the current models, read the manuals on the manufacturers' websites, and really get a feel for what you'll be getting.

Should I be concerned with the finishes on the stainless not matching?

No. I've been mixing kitchens with brands for 12 years...except for frigidaire which makes a fake stainless they all look similar enough that Noone really cares

I have a bosch oven, Samsung fridge, sharp MW, and KA DW and no one can tell the appliances don't match.

All of these decisions are excruciating. I'm becoming so indecisive. The whole Jenn Air package was going to cost around 20k. I'm willing to spend a bit more but I don't want to go crazy. How can I pull that off using a SZ fridge that costs half that?

good point about testing the size of your dishes in the dishwasher. I got a Miele about 6 years ago and did not test. Turns out my Mikasa dinner plates do not fit. The rotating arm hits the tops of them. So I usually don't use those plates now. I didn't think they were any larger than most dinner plates.

Also, the dimensions must be a little smaller, the contractors assumed a standard US size so the opening was a little large and they had to put trim around it to make it look finished.

The dimensions of the Euro dws are a little smaller - which is why you shouldn't assume anything but should actually use the template/measure!

Joe, the oven in every kitchen I've had is the LEAST important appliance in my life. No question that the cooktop is most important to me.

All of these decisions are excruciating. I'm becoming so indecisive. The whole Jenn Air package was going to cost around 20k. I'm willing to spend a bit more but I don't want to go crazy. How can I pull that off using a SZ fridge that costs half that?

OUCH!

I'm doing the Bosch 800 36" induction cooktop, the Bosch 500 oven (or the Frigidaire), either the Bosch or Liebherr 36" FD integrated refrigerator, a sharp MW and the Miele $1300 DW (forgot the model #) and I was quoted a price of around $13,000 and that doesn't include the Bosch 10% discount if I buy three of their products.

Yes... Ouch.

Two years ago, I got a Bosch 800 DW, Bosch 500 30" induction cooktop, Thermador 30" built-in refrigerator (to be paneled), Fagor 30" convection oven, Sharp 24" microwave drawer, and Zephyr recirculation under-cabinet hood. Total cost - about $15,000. Given that I got a Thermador built-in fridge, I'm surprised by the high price of your JennAir package.

The high price has me concerned if the quality isn't there.

Some things are expensive for marketing reasons, and others are expensive because they're niche items (not a huge market) as well as for marketing reasons. :) Quality is often a part of the niche market thing, but not always. I don't know enough about current Jenn-Air appliances to comment on them, but their parent corporation has been having some growing and readjustment pains, and a spotty record. Not awful, not always great.

SZ is usually worthy of its price, but the functional differences between a high end fridge and a big box store fridge are entirely at the margins. It's pretty easy to live without them. You want built-in, however, and that has a higher starting point. The 42" FD makes it that much narrower. How essential is it for you? How much do you need the width? You might be able to shave the budget with a 24" Liebherr fridge and 18" freezer. Or get the Jenn-Air and sock away the difference to pay for repairs (which you probably won't need). Or get a 36", and maybe an overflow fridge for the garage, and put in a pull out pantry or broom/ladder storage in the extra space.

As to the rest, you can trim the budget by not getting custom panels. Usually, those mean you have to get the highest priced DW, etc. You can also trim by getting mid-level. While I use my ovens to their full extents, at least some of the time, I could do without half the settings on my DW, and I don't use the memory function on my cooktop. You can also save if you don't need Dragon's Breath coming out of your rangetop. 9600BTU used to be the standard for homes, and we did just fine. 15K should be adequate for everything unless you wok or have strange steak sear obsessions.

Or you can cut elsewhere. For instance, really nice factory tile looks just as good as handmade, for a fraction of the price. Cabinets look just fine without overglazes. Et cetera.

42" SUB = $10k

Bosch double oven = $3k

Bosch dishwasher = $1k

Sharp micro drawer = $1k

Thermador range top = $4k

That's around $19k not counting hood. You can do a decent hood under $1500 over it. That would put you at $20k with a solid range of product.

If you are in metro ny or any of the areas we cover I can probably work you up a package at or below $20k similar to that.

Thanks for detailed replies. We'd like to stick to the 42" because we like the size and it also helps maintain symmetry in our kitchen design. I'm fine with paying the premium for it. We'd like to go with a Wolf 48" range top with a griddle. That leaves the double wall ovens, dishwasher, and microwave.

The Bosch 800 series dishwashers look good, and we'd like a flush mount microwave drawer. The double ovens are what I'm really struggling with. Wolfs M series are pretty expensive and probably more than we need. What about Thermador?

The vent hood will be built by the cabinet maker so we'd just need an insert.

Joe, thanks so much for your input!!

I like the Thermador MED302JP better than the Bosch ovens. What do you think the cost would be for this oven and the Thermador flush mount microwave? I'd still like to keep the Wolf Range top, the SZ fridge, and the Bosh dishwasher... unless using a Thermador dishwasher would help with incentives. Aren't Thermador and Bosch the same company?

The Thermador DW may be the same as the Bosch although my sister has had nothing but problems with it. She's also not too thrilled with her Thermador Range Top although both sisters are happy with their Thermador ovens.

I don't think we'd go with the Thermador range. I do like the wall ovens, though. So the Bosh and Thermador dishwashers are basically the same?

The med302jp is $4399 vs about $2800 ish for the bosch.

For the microwave drawer, the md24js from thermador is IDENTICAL to the hmd8451uc from bosch except one has a Thermador stamp and the other has a Bosch stamp.

Yes thermadorable and bosch are the same company. The ovens are similar but slightly different capacity, bigger broiler on the therm and a few more bells/whistles.

Thermadorable is apparently what the predictive text thinks of when I write thermador. Lol

Ok, I've been doing a LOT of reading about appliances the last few days. We're still undecided, but we've come up with sort of a "dream" package, which we know will be more expensive, but we're kicking around just going for it.

42" SZ french door fridge, no water dispenser

48" Wolf range top with griddle

Wolf M series pro-style double oven

Bosch 800 series dishwasher, the 42db model

Bosch flush mount microwave drawer.

Any idea what this might cost?

The M series double is about 7500...it's pricey to say the least. I'd say you are looking at $25k for that package roughly.

Save your money on the microwave drawer and get the new Sharp one. Sharp makes all the microwave drawers, and unless you're getting three Bosch appliances and getting the 10% discount for getting 3 appliances, it's not worth spending more money just to have the Bosch name on a Sharp microwave. Sharp Microwave

OP wants to do a flush install. While the new sharp can technically do it, I don't recommend it due to the way the control panel is placed on the unit. It can be difficult to open and use in my installs because of that tilt out control panel.

The bosch is the best priced of the flush mount units without that flaw

Yes, we really want a flush install. Just love they way it looks. So that's roughly 5k more for the SZ fridge and the M series ovens. Worth it? Overall, what do you think of this appliance package?

One of my DH's complaints about the original Sharp MW drawer was that he couldn't see the controls and that control panel was very slightly angled up. The new one has the panel that opens up at more of an angle for viewing.

On the Bosch the panel is flat so viewing the controls might be more of a problem if you're taller than my 5'3".

Additionally the Bosch MW is 950 watts of power vs the Sharp at 1000 watts.

Since you're considering spending it, the cost isn't an unreasonable amount to spend on looks (not worth going into debt for, not worth shorting your retirement for, worth skipping a ski trip for). If you've been doing a lot of reading, you know about the issues with Wolf ovens, and also that people love cooking with them. If the M Series has escaped the enamel problem so far, go for it. Other than choosing the MW for looks rather than ease of use (which is fine since you've decided to go for looks), it all sounds very functional and well considered.

Agree with plllog but wanted you to be informed based on actual usage. :)

Well, I, for one, was glad of your information! I, myself, would sacrifice the looks for ease, though I doubt I could see either one without crouching--but that's me. :) I made all my appliance decisions based on function, and a bit on price, though I get the looks thing if it's kept reasonable.

cpartist,

Do you mind sharing the model of Bosch oven? I am interested in single wall oven.

Thank you,

Mindy

I have the 800 series but mine is 6 years old already. It looks like they slightly changed the interface on the front of the oven.

So I believe we've decided on the Wolf/Subzero/Bosch package. If pricing is pretty much set across all of these brands, What would make a dealer more competitive? How can we get the best deal?

Good choice. One thing is to buy the whole package at once. Ask for a
builder or designer discount. You might need to have your builder or
designer come in to sign for it, or just give the license number, but often, when you're buying a whole kitchen's worth, they'll just give you the discount. Alternatively, while they may not be able to take any other monetary discounts, they might they might throw in a free appliance, usually in the 10-15% range, but it might be the model that they're getting a deal on, say of a dishwasher, rather than the one you chose. Much more than 10-15% off is unlikely, because they're not buying these by the boatload, like the big box stores do with the ones from Korea, and they don't have big margins. They might have other inducements and sweeteners, though, like free installation or a cookware set or something. Be as charming as possible, and ask them what deal you can get. It's important to be sweet. People go out of their way for people they like but are resistant to abrasive or aggressive customers, and they don't owe a discount to anybody. That's one reason the builder discount is often best. It doesn't take negotiation.

Does wolf/SZ offer a builder discount program?

I was speaking of the store. Most appliance stores do have trade discounts. It's an expected part of the business. When the builders or designers do the buying, either for a full charge project (where the owner doesn't do any transactions for furnishings) or for development or spec projects, they can get the appliances, tiles, etc., at the trade discount, charge the client full price for them, and get paid for their trouble by the difference. When the client shops for, chooses, and pays out of pocket for things, the stores will often extend the trade discount for large purchase if asked.

As I said before, sometimes you have to give the trade worker's license number or have him/her come in with you on the day you pay, which is more about their internal workings re store discipline. Other times, they look at your choices, know you have a major project with a builder, and just give you the discount without having to verify it. A big incentive for the store is to work well with the builders' and designers' customers, as well as with themselves, to generate return business. My contractor still does a lot of business with the store I chose, where I bought my appliances. The discount I got paid off for them. :)

Pure guess, I'd think you'd have to be a developer with many units to get a discount directly from SZ/Wolf, if that's even possible (well, probably is...).

wolf/SZ is pretty strictly price controlled and territory controlled. You will not be able to get a discount beyond their bottom (UMRP) price. The bosch however is not a price protected line, so your best bet is to negotiate those prices down as low as you can since you are buying SZ/Wolf

Thanks. We're also looking at a Zephyr hood insert. Are they price controlled?

I'm really torn on what fridge to get. I've had several people currently own or have owned Sub zero tell me not to get one.

I'm going through similar situation with new construction--and yes, the decisions are excrutiating. Probably the best (and most simple) advice I was given was to spend money/focus on your range. Put that at the top of your budget list and be willing to "steal" money away from your DW and fridge budget to get the best range that suits you.

rmverb...one more quick note regarding SZ. Go to your friends house who has one. Open the fridge door, close it, then try to quickly open it again. It's hard to quickly reopen the door due to something about the vacuum seal (I can't recall the exact termonology)...you usually have to wait a few seconds. It drives some people crazy.

Rmverb...What reasons did people give you for suggesting not to purchase a subzero fridge?

Appliances are like cars - there is no one be-all-end-all answer - you really have to go with what features and style you prefer. Also as with any car, there is maintenance and occasionally service that needs to be performed to keep everything running smoothly.

Jena-Air is really trying to position themselves as an ultra-premium brand. To that end they are really stepping up to provide that experience.

So one thing to understand in the American appliance industry - there are only a few manufacturers, and sometimes manufacturers will build items for other brand names besides their own. The biggest and most obvious example of this is Sears' Kenmore brand - there is actually no one "Kenmore" manufacturer, just a big warehouse of Kenmore stickers that get shipped out to all the manufacturers who really make these things. Why do I bring this up?

KitchenAid and Thermador get high ratings for their built-in refrigerators. Did you know that, up till just a few months ago, KitchenAid made a couple of the Thermador built-in refrigerators? KitchenAid is made by Whirlpool, the same company that makes Jenn-Air (they position Jenn-Air as their top premium brand, with KitchenAid the next step down targeted at foodie-culinary types). KitchenAid Dishwashers are also some of the top rated dishwashers made, along with Bosch. Oh by the way, Bosch makes Thermador. Did you know that JennAir is sourcing with Bosch to manufacture some of their dishwashers? So really, going with Jenn-Air is not a gamble in any sense. They are highly rated high quality appliances. They make some beautiful flush-mount built-ins, have awesome cooking features, and some cool tech to go along with it.

If you search the web for any appliance or brand you will find complaints. No one, as far as I know, has created the 100%-reliable-universally-designed-pleases-all-the-people-all-the-time home appliance yet.

As for buying, Jenn-Air has two programs going right now. One is called "Compliments of Jenn-Air" where if you buy certain combinations of appliances, you get a credit toward the purchase of another appliance... like a free dishwasher when you buy a range or oven/cooktop. They also have a builder program where a builder can register to receive a discounted price from any authorized retailer. Other than that, the pricing is UMRP, meaning unilaterally priced across all dealers.

Reliability is the main issue people have told me to avoid SubZero.

So a few answer for you. Zephyr is not price controlled. You can negotiate that number.

The user is correct if you close a sub-zero door, then try to open it within roughly 30-60 seconds, it will be difficult to open. This is due to the way their unit reacts to a door close situation. Basically it immediately kicks into over drive to restore the optimum conditions for food. This is actually a good thing...but some people find it annoying.

Most people complaining about reliability are suffering from 2 situations when it comes to sub-zero. First is they didn't follow their instructions to vacuum the condenser coils at the top out periodically. This is different from other units. I have done it for clients and this is a 5-10 minute job that should be done maybe 4 times per year. Second, and this is over generalized but true, is unrealistic expectation. Too many people who buy sub zeros expect them to last 25 years without issue...that's not the way of the world. They do break. It happens sometimes and it can be more expensive than other brands. It doesn't mean they won't continue to work far more effeciently for longer than most other brands will.

I can tell you if you ask your local authorized SZ service company, they will tell you how reliable they are. I can promise you coming from a retailer who sold 700-800 SZ units a year for the past decade, they are really wonderful units from a customer friendly company.

we did a wolf wall convection microwave, i know you are asking about a drawer one, but in hindsight, i would never do it again. I would do a speed oven, I would do a steam oven. But for just a microwave, seriously think about putting a $100 one behind a cabinet door. when it breaks, buy a new one and swap it out. seriously, there is zero difference in them. and you will save a lot of money for the other appliances. just my 2¢

Let me chime in on the drawer microwave too. I completely agree with digitalman in just getting a countertop microwave and either hiding it or using a trim kit to give it the built-in look. I have known many people who have selected a drawer microwave (or had it existing in a spec house) who hate it and have since replaced it with a regular microwave and trim combination. The cavity in the drawer is smaller; if you reheat soup in a bowl it sometimes spills out because of the way the drawers open (motorized) and move the food with it; the display is too low and hard to read. Just some common complaints of the drawer.

You can search houzz for what a regular microwave with trim can look like... http://www.houzz.com/photos/query/microwave-trim

Nothing has ever spilled out of its cup or bowl in my drawer microwave.

I have known many people who have selected a drawer microwave (or had it existing in a spec house) who hate it and have since replaced it with a regular microwave and trim combination.

I love mine enough that in my new build, I'm putting in one again.

The cavity in the drawer is smaller;

Smaller than what? The largest microwave, yes but it's plenty large enough to put in a large plate or bowl.

if you reheat soup in a bowl it sometimes spills out because of the way the drawers open (motorized)

Oh? And you know this from experience or you're assuming because like sjhockeyfan I've never had anything spill out of it.

the display is too low and hard to read.

The new Sharp has a display that is angled up. Problem solved.

I'm glad you're happy with the drawer - to address your question (or rather statement), YES, the soup problem is from personal experience, and shared by my brother's family, too. Not all of my measuring cups (like for heating water or melting butter) fit in the cavity because of the height limitation. I'm just hoping to shed light on some issues to consider that might not be obvious to someone who hasn't lived with one. They continue to sell, so people do like them! People also don't like them enough to rip them out and replace them. Vanilla vs Chocolate I guess. :)

The way our kitchen is designed, we have to go with a drawer microwave. I'm aware of the potential negatives, but for as much as we use a microwave it should be fine.