I guess I'll go first. I'm still a bit of a novice but have planted some of the roses that you have. I don't spray so this will alter my critiques. I only grew a couple of those mentioned but here goes.

ZD was a black spot mess and only flowered in spring. The flowers were pretty and smelled amazing but I couldn't take the disease issues. She was very winter hardy though. CL Iceberg also had black spot and not great flower production so she's gone.

For the Knockouts have you cut back a cane to see if it still has white pith? If not they're probably dead. When did you move them? How hot is it there? We have been very cool here so this makes transplanting roses much easier since high temps really stress them out. I tend to put my transplants in pots first if it's really hot and put them in shade so I can keep them well watered until I can replant them. I seem to have better luck that way.

If you're still adding to your collection I would highly recommend Kordes and Easy Elegance roses. They have been great here, little to no disease, nice flowers and more shade tolerant than some of the others. I have EE 'Yellow Submarine' in probably 4 hours of sun and she still flowers nicely and had no winter kill at all and no disease. All Easy Elegance are own root so you don't have to worry about winter kill of the grafted rose and they don't produce suckers from a different root stock. White Flower Farms offers a few of the EE roses. I just got 'Macy's Pride' from them this spring. She is growing like gangbusters. I only grow own root and buy from Roses Unlimited, Chamblees, Long Ago Roses, Heirloom Roses and Northland Rosarium. All send healthy nice sized roses, many even in bud. I just got 2 Kordes 'South Africa' from NR yesterday that have several buds and open flowers. The plants are really good size and super healthy.

There is a great thread on honest critique of the Kordes roses started last year by Nippstress (Cynthia) http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3235370/newflora-kordes-roses-lets-rate-them-to-provide-feedback

and Chris from New Flora which is the North America distributor of Kordes roses is a regular here and will try to answer any questions on the Kordes line.

I hope you're not too overwhelmed by all of the info :-)

Sharon

Are the "long canes" from Lagerfeld blooming? I'm concerned that you now have rootstock, and not Lagerfeld.

Burgundy Iceberg wasn't good or hardy for me.

Take a look at mad_gallica's threads over on the Antique Roses Forum, also in the Hudson Valley:

The Semi-Doubles and Before the Rains

It sounds to me like your biggest problem is you don't really understand climbers. What they are, what they do, how they do it, and why. It is a very common problem in places that don't grow a lot of climbers. We just don't see them.

The most common climbing rose you will see is Rosa multiflora. You usually don't see what it is climbing because that plant is buried alive. However, you can see that whatever it is, it isn't all that big. Years ago, I had a multiflora growing over a sumac. So a 20 ft rose is growing up and over a 15 ft tree. That lasted until the whole thing came crashing down one winter, then the highway department cleaned it all up when they replaced a nearby culvert. Right now, I have a multiflora climbing up a red cedar, again a 20 ft rose growing up a 25 ft tree, and setigera growing up a red cedar and a dogwood. These are all (for here) very large roses growing up (for here) very small trees. They want to climb things they stand a chance of getting to the top of.

The definition of a climber runs into problems. 'Real' climbers tend to be tender roses, so over time the term has expanded to cover anything that will put out long enough canes to be trained over things. It is often said that the Explorer climbers are really just large shrubs. There is a lot of truth in this. It only becomes important if you have a specific vision in mind for the rose. Shrubby climbers are a lot harder to train - even harder than the usual strong minded hardy climbers. To turn Seafoam into a climber is going to take a lot of time, a lot of skill, and a certain amount of bloody-mindedness.

If you are interested in taking a trip, the Dark Side will welcome you.

This is just the kind of stuff I wanted to hear. I will cease and desist the moving around. I've got the knockouts where they should be size and color-wise, and if some don't make it, I will replace with something different. I chose Super Excelsas because it seemed to be a rambler able to make it high enough without cane dieback so I'd be starting every year. My choices were limited because I wanted a dark red. Watching its growth habit so far, the canes are sprawling in all directions. I tied the ones that were toward their trunk with twine to a pole propped up to the tree and when it reaches it I will tie it loosely to the trunk. What do I do with canes growing into the path? They're somewhat flexible so I probably can bend them toward the tree too.

I chose Zepherine Drouhin for the arch because it was thornless. I haven't had black spot yet, but assume it's coming. Are there practices to mitigate it other than not watering it so the leaves get wet?

Sea Foam only grow about 6 ft, and the holly tree scaffold is about the same. Can a rose that size really get so heavy that it can't be simply propped up when they holly bites the dust? How should I be training the rose in the meantime?

Yes the Lagerfeld is blooming - the color and the scent are wonderful. Maybe I shouldn't be calling a 4-5 ft cane long? Nothing like that coming from the Burgundy iceberg and certainly not the Mercury Rising!

I know that patience is key, but I am happy to know when to pivot or cut my losses. I have to say that it is worrisome to read how many roses just don't work out and get jettisoned. I guess that won't hurt as much if you master propagating. On that front, I've got a Darlow's Enigma and Poseidon cutting in the works:)

To the color question, has anyone seen a successful assembly of like colors? Like an all red rose garden, with different reds? I think single-color schemes work if if the tones are sufficiently different - i.e., smoky/vibrant/blue tinged, etc. Maybe this is harder to achieve with roses?

Darlow's Enigma gets big width wise since it keeps sending runners up so be forewarned. It covers itself with sprays of small white blossoms that smell incredible and has good repeat. JB's don't bother it, neither does black spot. I had to move mine a few times and the last move killed it but I loved it so much I bought a replacement and am planting it where it has room to sprawl.

Monochromatic beds are pretty. To me they look more formal though. Here are some pics of all red rose gardens with some white for accents. White allysum could be pretty at the front or Lamium 'White Nancy' to bring in a bit of contrast. Or some statuary among the roses would be gorgeous, especially a whiter shade of gray.

Still, a man hears what he wants to hear.

And disregards the rest.

The Boxer - Simon and Garfunkle

You want to hear these roses will work.

Kitasei, perhaps you could visit your local rose society to see what roses grow well in your area and to get advice on the roses you already have. It's a good place to find like-minded friends and sometimes they have good speakers too. My rose society's next speaker will give a talk on garden planning. I hope there's one not too far from you: Rose Societies in New York.

Mads point made above: "To turn Seafoam into a climber is going to take a lot of time, a lot of skill, and a certain amount of bloody-mindedness." is due to seafoams vicious thorns and frequent use as a scrambling and trailing groundcover. For that spot, you may want to consider putting "Darlow's Enigma" there, as it can support itself upwards.

Is sea foam a dense enough groubd cover that it wouldn't need to be weeded? Sounds too vicious to do that.

Kitasel, Seafoam was a ground-cover nightmare for me. Both places I've grown it is was octopus-y but grew quickly to 8 to 10 feet apart. You'd need a long-handled tool to weed it. I would think training it would also be a challenge.

OK enough about the thorns. The other issue I had was all the energy went to growing long canes; the spring flush was magnificent but after that, not much.

I think Seafoam needs its own thread to warn people-- since its Earthkind a lot of newbies are going to try it!

Mine didn't tend to grow long canes. It just made an impenetrable mass six feet tall and wide. It did occasionally have some winterkill, which may have controlled it a bit. It's a nice rose in a lot of ways, and there aren't that many white roses that do what it can do. However, calling it a climber is just bizarre. Almost as strange as calling Darlow's Enigma one.

kitasei(6b lower Hudson Valley, NY) listen to mad_gallica. Really, you should, very experienced in rose growing in your area. Very. Experienced.

I'm listening, believe me. (In my defense, I did get the suggestion to use Seafoam as a 6 foot climber from another GW poster and confirmed by Roseland (as well as the suggestion to plant Darlow's Enigma as a rambler that deer might pass up because of its thorns. I passed on that idea when I realized I would be adding a monster with thorns to a place already difficult to control multiflora, honeysuckle and poison ivy). Back to Seafoam, I'm now envisioning it as an octopus on tiptoe, or a large ball of spaghetti. How does one use it to best effect? As a lawn sculpture? Planted densely as a tall groundcover? In a shrub border?

FOUND IT !!!!!

Seafoam

It only took going back to 2009.

Seafoam was the first hybrid rose to get RRD in our garden. The others were dealt with easily by cutting the infected cane back to ground level. I couldn't get into the mass of this rose to cut anything back. So after a few ineffectual tries, I asked DH to do it. He cut the entire thing down to the ground. It turned out to have about 5 separate crowns, only half of which looked to have bad growth. So like the phoenix, Seafoam is currently rising from the ashes. It is only about a foot tall, but I am prepared.

and yes, there were several trees growing in there

Great picture. It actually looks like a superb screening shrub. Does it take well to being "shaped?", e.g. like an azalea?

Yes and no. It doesn't mind being cut back. However, it is a New Dawnian, and has those vicious wichurana thorns. You can't wade into it and take a position for pruning. You can't even reach over it and take a position for pruning. Getting dead wood out of it is an adventure. Which is why it was such a problem when it got RRD. The *only* way to cut the offending cane off well below the infection was to level the entire shrub.

Mad_gallica thanks for digging up that photo of Seafoam. I am realizing we didn't have ours long enough to see it build up. I would guess it could approach the size of Darlow's here-- huge.

Old saying about climbers-- First year they sleep, second year they creep, third year they leap! So be patient with Zepherine and Cl. Iceburg.

Grandifloras as a group tend to be upright and tall, often with clusters. Rarely ball-shaped like shrub roses. Sounds very appropriate, what you did with Lagerfeld.

Different varieties of roses develop at different rates, so be patient with Burgundy Iceburg. I'd give it a good three years.

I volunteer at an organic rose garden at the Virginia Zoo and even with 2 professionals collaborating we had some roses that really failed us or simply did not work. So you may want to develop a list of roses you want to try "next".

Even at home I make a list each fall of roses which are "on probation". There will always be a few that just don't perform like you hoped in your garden.

Kitasei, I am in a totally different part of the US, but here Lagerfeld grows to resemble the Empire State Building. Skyscraper canes, contained growth in column shape. We have a longer, hotter summer & much shorter winter, but it sounds like that rose wants to be a skyscraper everywhere.

Lagerfeld at 4-5' is about right for these parts, mine hovered in the 5' range.

Very helpful to learn that grandifloras tend to be taller and vase shaped. Luckily I put the Lagerfeld in the back. At the suggestion of Jackson & Perkins, I poured a gallon of water with 1/4 c. epsom salt on their Burgundy Iceberg shrub rose. (Now that i know that this will always look like the ugly sister next to Ebbtide I should not have them next to each other.

I've seen Seafoam used really effectively at the Victorian state rose garden as a weeping standard ( known in the US as a tree) rose. Was taller than me, so i'm guessing it was 6 ft. Its height allowed the canes plenty of room to drape down, so it looked quite impressive.