I like Heirloom Roses very much. They do not have the rarer varieties though. This should leave a market for bands at the specialty nurseries which I hope can flourish. I very much appreciate the selection of bands at Burlington, Rosepetals, High Country Roses, Greenmantle, Northland etc.

Everyone has their own rose purchasing budget. I do not see that Heirloom's changes have impacted what is happening in the market. Fortunately, there are places to purchase roses that work for a variety of budgets or attitudes regarding cost/value.

I am aware that other nurseries sell 1 gallon roses, but they are cheaper then heirloom's, and i wouldn't be surprised that if you were to arrange to pick up the roses from the nursery if you lived close enough they wouldn't take on the shipping cost you anyway. If I go to heirloom roses I am still being charged the same as if the boxed it and shipped it. My point is that if they do away with the bands and are successful in charging so much more, then what is to stop other nurseries that sell bands now to stop and only sell gallons, plus raise their price as well. I have noticed that while heirloom is more expensive then others they changed their prices before and faster then other nurseries that I had been visiting the websites.

And I am aware that shipping bigger pots are more expensive the bands, hence, even though I am close enough to Heirloom to go there, I am concerned that they are phasing out bands.

There are nurseries that sell roses in bands that the shipping is 40+ to go from one side of the country to the other. I don't use them because of that cost as well.

To simplify my original question even farther is :what would stop other nurseries from going to gallons only and charging $40ish per rose like heirloom does?

I believe we get your question.

1. As Virginia wrote, there are other nurseries that sell gallons or larger.... only, were doing so prior to Heirloom's recent changes, and their pricing/ shipping protocols have not changed.

2. If the nurseries that sell only one gallon roses wanted to all of a sudden convert to Heirloom's pricing policy, I guess they could...free market and all. Buyers will decide their fate. Fortunately, the change made by Heirloom, well over a year ago, has not impacted the pricing/shipping protocols of other rose suppliers.

It can be futile to worry about something until a change is announced or it actually happens,....

Two-year old bareroots are the real way to go;) It sounds like Heirloom is fast on their way to figuring that one out.

As I live in California paying $37 for a gallon does not make sense for me and their selection is going as others mentioned towards roses I do not want. The 2 gallon roses from Antique Rose Emporium are a much better deal if they have what you want. I did buy 2 bands and a gallon from them this year and the gallon wasn't much bigger than the bands but they only offered the rose in question in the gallon. Hmmmm. Are the roses at the nursery priced the same as having them shipped to you? I thought they'd be cheapper as no packaging and shipping costs and was going to try and stop there on some journey.

I just bought a gallon from them for the same reason... no band available. (Lady of the Mist) And it was 10% off so $33 including shipping seemed reasonable.

MadGallica, I thought own root plants couldn't be bare root. Am I wrong about that? I'd love to order bare root but don't want grafted...

When ARE first began selling roses mail order (maybe 1988?) they sold bare root, own-root roses. They were TEENY-TINY own-root plants, with the soil washed-off.

We are not careless, and we potted all of them into 1-G -- but I don't think we had any survivors. (And some, they replaced, and those didn't make it, either.) So I was thrilled when they went to bands.

And I STILL have no problem with bands. We pot them up to 1-G, and they take right off.

We did get three VERY well-grown Miniatures recently, from a friend who formerly had a nursery. They were bare root, and when potted up immediately took off like rocket ships.

Anne, to answer your question, yes at the nursery they are $37. I was pointing out to my wife that that discourages even going. Sine the change in ownership we have had mixed results in going there, so...

In the catalog (which they give out free if you a physically there) it lists the gallons as $37 as well.

For roses to survive being shipped bareroot, they have to be a certain size. Over the year, a fair number of nurseries have offered bareroot, ownroot roses. If your major concern is to buy the largest rose possible for the least amount of money, they have always been the way to go.

I have a couple of roses that came from ARE as two year old bareroots. Our personal problem was that ARE stopped shipping bareroots at the end of February, and we really can't plant until the beginning of April. We knew how to hold them, but it tended to take a bit of persuading to get the order sent that way. The next time I tried, they wouldn't cooperate.

Well, the ones we got from ARE bare root were FAR from being 2-year. I wish I had photos, but I don't. They had NO topgrowth started, just thready little roots at the bottom of a cutting.

But I'm not being critical of them! That was a very temporary thing, and they soon transitioned to 1-G, and then -- when Heirloom started with bands -- EVERYONE jumped on that idea, and I still think it was a great solution.

Somehow moving to Oregon has me getting bare root own root roses from ARE, that they will only send mid January. I was familiar with their potted roses that did very well in Alaska. This must be an Oregon requirement, but they are doing very well too. This refers to the current size they sell, no doubt, Jeri, not the teeny ones you got in the past. The shipping is cheaper too for the bare root. I'm not sure if any other states require ARE to do this.

Once a rose is really up to filling a 1g, I suspect it is a good candidate for bare rooting. Bare rooting roses is the norm for budded roses and it will become the norm for own roots as well. Shipping period can be extended into warmer times by body bagging without adding much to shipping cost.The world goes round in circles. Still, a budded 1g will always be cheaper to produce than an own root one.

I can agree with you on many points, Cynthia. My guess might be the rare antique rose business is lower volume and they might be hoping for more numbers by going with the "popular" varieties.

Shipping costs from South Carolina to Nevada, for 3 $16 - $18 one gallon plants from R.U., is almost as costly as the same number of plants from Heirloom. My R.U. plants arrive 5 - 7 days of shipping, late in my planting season, and defoliated. My Heirloom plants arrive in 3 days or less with leaves and often blooms. I will always choose Heirloom in this scenario, given the option. Note ( roses from both vendors have performed well but the R.U. plants get off to a more iffy start)

Another advantage to factor in for Heirloom is that for the most part, they ship year round, as some of the other vendors stop in late Spring. I prefer to plant bands from early October - February, excluding January.

I do not know what will happen, but I have been very satisfied with my Heirloom purchases. I am happy that there are still options and various scenarios to satisfy all buyer's needs.

Just a note that Heirloom said my rose would be coming defoliate due to extreme differences in climate. As I'm in Seattle and they are in Portland that seemed a little strange...

I have heard that, Robin. I think Sheilah made a similar comment. I wonder if it is time of year related??? I have not experienced this yet. I have an order set to ship in late August. Does seem strange....

My Heirloom roses are in full leaf. The ARE ships me bare root own root no leaf roses in January only, and they do very well. Heirloom is in Oregon, so it might be a State strategy to keep the "riff raff" out.

If Heirloom is offering the same selection others are, that means they aren't producing their own roses. They are buying liners from a wholesale grower. That would also explain the standardizing of sizes to one gallons. If you produce your own plants, you have control over offerings and sizes. If you buy them, you are limited to what is available in both.

Oh the ins and outs of the Rose business are all so interesting! For now, it's the least expensive way for me to buy own root roses. Even my local nurseries have been more or the same as Heirloom with shipping. Interesting about the leaves. Perhaps they are defoliated when shipped out of state anywhere? I wanted to buy some roses from High Country but all the roses I wanted wouldn't ship till spring. It seems Im going to need to be more planned out and intentional than is my nature when it comes to populating my garden...

Oh, very interesting Kim! I always knew that bareroot companies like Regan outsources their grafting/ propagation, as opposed to dearly beloved Palatine that grafts and sells all their own roses between Rene and Rachel. No worries if the outsource location has good quality and a product range. However, I didn't know that ownroot places also outsource things, since even a one-person operation like Burlington can keep a pretty nice selection of roses for offer all by herself.

You're right that Heirloom may be reducing what they offer to whatever the wholesale grower has to offer. Too bad since they have some varieties that no one else seems to have. You'd think that with Heirloom's history they'd at least keep up with the Clements line of roses, but that may be moving to only a handful of his more common roses too. Of course, I don't know if this is the case but the wholesale Heirloom staff spoke of "the growers" as if they were a separate entity from the rest of Heirloom. Too bad, since Heirloom has some unusual roses no one else in the US sells.

Cynthia

There is a growing industry here of raising liners to sell to others to grow into retail size. Conard Pyle, Ball, Greenheart and others propagate own root then sell the liners to middlemen who grow them to the size required by the retailers. Burling has been obtaining minis from Greenheart for some time. She told me at least two years ago she isn't propagating minis because she can buy them more cost effectively and resell them. That's why so many of her minis are in the 5" pots. It's the way she obtains them. And, it's why so many minis that used to be more readily available, aren't.

Rogue Valley doesn't propagate all their roses either.

Earlier this spring, Rogue Valley customer service mentioned that they weren't sure whether the rose I ordered, Charles de Gaulle, was included in the shipment from Texas where some of their roses are propagated.

Ann

About the defoliating the roses and climate differences between Heirloom and seattle, there might be a difference in climate. My sister had a rose shipped to me for my birthday this past week and the rose was defoliated. It came with a note saying this was due to the difference in climates. I live 20 miles away! opposite sides of the willamette river, but still only 20 miles. What the... and why would they do that? It is the middle of summer when plants need their leaves to photosynthesize, not to be tricked into thinking they are just now putting on new growth. In my opinion this is not a good practice.

ARE always sends me roses (to California) that are defoliated and they always get leaves fairly quickly. I thought it may be a Calfornia regulation, as with bareroots to Oregon but I'm speculating as other nurseries in Texas like Chamblee's do not defoliate their roses. I have to say though, I have received roses with slugs and other bugs from some of the nurseries in FL (Not Reverence for Roses, theirs are very clean) and RVR. That has never happened with the defoliated roses.

Not all rose nurseries have the space to grow a lot of one gallon plants. Not everyone wants to spend the money on a gallon plant, so I think there will remain nurseries that want to fill a niche for those who don't mind nurturing a smaller plant.

I'd ALWAYS rather receive a band-sized plant -- unless I can buy it and carry it home. I'm sure others feel the same.

Sounds like Heirloom really has a screwy business plan... they will soon (Aug 1) be charging $15 for shipping on orders less than $50.

Jeri, as I said above, I'm with you on preferring bands if I can get 'em.

Virginia

I just saw that. Seems disappointing.

That is just odd. What is behind this decision? Doesn't make any sense.

I was wondering about that email as well from them.

One other thought on the reduced inventory. If I remember correctly, they want to sell virus free roses only. If their old established plants are not tested virus free, they may have to either aquire indexed plants and grow out or just stop offering a variety. For some, there is no indexed stock available. I would guess that puts them between the proverbial rock and hard place of not selling or risk being accused of shipping viruses plants

I wonder how difficult it would be to heat-treat their virused plants, if indeed, that is an issue for them.

Could they test and treat virused plants themselves, or would it need to be done independently? If the latter, would it be possible (and affordable) to send wood to a university facility in California or Florida or elsewhere?

Hmmm... this pdf from UC-Davis answers some of my questions, but not if they will accept any variety from nurseries for testing/treatment, nor what the costs are.

Virginia

I'm curious what the new flat rate shipping means. Maybe they'll lower their prices on plants since shipping is not " free" anymore. Maybe you can have more than one plant shipped for $15. That could be a better deal! I looked on their site for more about it but didn't see any details.

Every nursery has a minimum shipping charge, looks like theirs will be $15. Will have to wait and see how they adjust their pricing. I like bands too, but for those of us in winter challenged zones, gallons are sometimes a safer bet, especially later in the season.

My guess is that if they'll soon only be selling gallon plants for $30 or so, you'll automatically get free shipping if you buy more than one plant?

I had a quick look to see if they had anything I wanted to order before they start charging for shipping, but the only two roses I've thought of getting from them are $37 and $38 respectively.

S'okay. I should probably spend some time evaluating the roses I already have before adding more...

Virginia

I hear you Virginia!

They have always had some virused mother plants, because the original owners took the position that roses imported from England or Europe could not be virused.

Learning that some of those plants WERE virused didn't change their opinion, which I always thought was weird.

I imagine that, when they sold the business, they told the buyers that their roses were virus-free.

Well that would be a breach of contact suit!

Well, but ... what if they BELIEVED they were virus-free?

They had their Dark Lady tested (after I blew the whistle on it) and it was virused. But what if they didn't test anything else? What if they sincerely believed they were clean?

By that time, John was dead. I don't KNOW that anyone other than him knew that there were virused roses there . . .

Heck, I was more concerned about the fact that I got three roses from them with root gall . . .

Jeri you said they had learned some of theirs were virused so they weren't ignorant. Guess it would depend on what was bargained for in the contract. If "virus free" was an essential term then yes, that would be a breach. I've recently received roses from them that are virused.

Susu, which cultivars are showing virus symptoms?

Honestly I do not remember as they only show symptoms for the first flush. I should've made a note of it but I didn't. Virus doesn't bother me too much.

David Austin now claims virus free too. But I have walked the rose sale aisles of the new ones and beg to differ....

How often do you hear someone say that their rose is virus-free -- and they know this because it has never shown symptoms. I've given up trying to explain why that is BullPooh.

Except in very severe cases, I don't much care whether a rose is virused, because I live in a mild climate. (Yes, I know, if you have a real winter, it's a big issue.)

But I am going to get rid of my Duchesse d'Auerstadt because it is SO virused that it is uglier than sin in the spring.

Agree about the Austins! Jeri, I remember my newbie panic attack when I first had RMV. You casually told me almost ALL roses do. Since then I've let it slide. But I do have two or three that look like some kind of bizarre coleus foliage during first flash. Uck.

If it affected their growth I would be raising cane! *bad pun*

When Jim Sproul visited a few weeks ago, he mentioned that Dr. David Zlesak has found that Rise'n Shine is infected with a seed, possibly pollen, borne virus which expresses itself as stippling in the foliage. It is not, AFAIK, related to RMV/PNRSV and I have no idea whether it is able to be cleaned through heat treatments. Where did THAT come from? Was it there from the first seedling or was it infected through breeding and if it was there from the beginning, from whence did it come? Is it in all of Rise'n Shine's descendants? There are so many others we don't test for, the only claims that can be ethically made are that a particular rose is free from the listed viruses for which it has been tested. That is what amazes me when things like Atmore Lamarque and George Washington Richardson are tested and found to be free from RMV/PNRSV. When you consider how many were passed from one grower to the next, with never any attention paid to anything viral and how many types of viral infections are possible to transmit physically, over how many decades? It's remarkable when something older is determined to be CLEAN.

Well, in the case of the Atmore rose, it was planted in 1869, and STAYED there. Probably cuttings were given to children moving to new homes, but that's a relatively low number. Surely that helps.

But -- Hasn't everyone always thought that the various plant viruses were spread only by budding or cloning??? A SEED-born virus (or pollen) is scary at a whole new level, yes?

Remember each grain of pollen has two nuclei, and either one or both could have undesirable stuff associated with it. If the tube nucleus...not to worry. The nucleus that goes to the heart of the ovule is a whole 'nother story.

There is so much that isn't known about plants. Do a quick look at the very brief history of phytoplasmas. Symptoms were known, but source???