Oh boy, this will be a great thread. I am waiting for responses. I don't really have anything to say except that in my Miele w1918 instruction manual they talk about using enough powdered detergent to fill up the dispenser, if needed, due to hard water. That dispenser looks like it would hold 1-2 cups of HE powder! That would be some serious hard water. I have hardness 6-7 grains/gal, moderately hard. You have asked some great questions and I hope you get some helpful input.

When shopping for a water softener discovered some of the large companies will rent equipment and installation is included in the rental fee. They did require a 1-year contract.

Am NOT recommending purchasing from this company (I found them to be high priced and high pressure), just letting you know of the rental option.

How is the suds level in the drum if you use the 2 Tbl of powdered detergent? If you don't have a problem with suds, I would add Borax (as in 40 Mule) to the drum for your wash cycle. It's a great deodorizer. Those that use the pods may have some other advice for deodorizing. You may find that regular TOL liquid for darks might be better in the hard water. See what works.

The borax is also a water softener.

Borax, while it does have some softening capability, is a relatively poor softener. In very hard water, such as that the OP has, it's softening effect will be negligible at any reasonable dose.

STPP... is the absolute best you can do for hard water. Theres nothing else that will come close to the benefits of STPP.

I also have hard water and use Calgon with every load. It seems to work for me pretty well. Since I started that, I don't have hard water spots on the drum or the window any longer.

ITA with the Calgon suggestion. Most grocery stores carry it in the laundry products section, and should be easy to find in a hard water area.

Calgon isn't the same as it used to be. It's now kinda like a blend of Sodium Carbonates. Sesquicarbonate. While I haven't used it enough to really draw a opinion, I imagine it'd be hard to rinse and could potentially cause a larger problem.

What you really want is Sodium TripolyPhosphate. Like what it used to contain. It performs much better and you can even use less.

Like what Mamapinky said.

Sorry for the late reply. My son was sick last night, and I had to take him to the doctor this morning. It was a bit of a fiasco.

Unfortunately, although, a point of use softener sounds good, I don't see it working out. Our duplex is really very nice but the laundry room is teeny, so no room. I'll ask my husband about talking to the owner about a water softener, though.

I have been shopping around to all the stores. No one carries Calgon. Not one store. Looking at pricing online, it seems like stpp is cheaper than calgon. So I will be placing an stpp order, and see if that helps.

I haven't had any sudsing with tide he turbo detergent. No matter the amount - 2 tablespoons- to the recommended amount from the packaging- to even more in my experiments.

I have had sudsing with all free and clear liquid, washing pillows. It was very sudsy. But cleared with added rinses. I am a bit shocked anything could Suds in this water!

Has anyone tried citric acid in the final rinse? In lieu of fabric softener, or even in with it? Would a powder in the fabric softener be bad for the machine? I see in the manual I downloaded it says only liquid in the fabric softener compartment, so I'm thinking it wouldn't be kosher.

Also, bleach. I don't have a lot of whites to bleach, but in this water I am assuming bleach is a no no lest I want yellow whites, correct?

Mich is right Calgon is not what it used to be. Calgon can cause problems if its not completely rinsed...like yellowing and holes. It no longer is made up of complex phosphates so its not going to do a very good job of holding hard water minerals ect in suspension and preventing redeposits on clothing. For those that battle hard water I highly recommend STPP which is a complex phosphate. its easily found on Amazon.

I have very hard well water and tried most of the suggestions mentioned above. The only thing that made a drastic improvement was STPP, about a scant teaspoon per wash, with water temperature at 120 or 140. I've heard that STPP doesn't work well in lukewarm water, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. It's the only thing that made white laundry truly clean looking. I don't use it in with dark items.

Aliceinwonderland-I'd appreciate more info on the point-of-use set up. I never knew such a thing existed.

@thunderstorms, out of curiosity.. are you located in AZ? I remember listening to a case study from Reckitt Benckiser (maker of Electrasol & now Finish) and at the time, they were saying they used "test family's" in a certain part of Arizona as they had the hardest (high in calcium & magnesium minerals) water conditions in the country. I think it was followed by Nevada.

35-39 Grains... sounds very awful. You know... there are parts of Florida where the water is only 9 GPG, and people have to replace all of the pipes in their home every five years, if they didn't install a Potassium/Salt Softener. I can just imagine how dreadful those kind of conditions are. Truly surprised the landlord hasn't installed something just to prevent damage.

I have very hard water and add a tablespoon of STPP to every load, and a tablespoon of citric acid powder where fabric softener is supposed to go. This helps.

Well I thought I would update.

I bought stpp on eBay, and it's been GREAT. I have been using it in conjunction with P&G's recommend amount of tide he liquid. I am very happy. I am also waiting for another order of citric acid, since I saw another thread on here that vinegar *may* not be good for the machine. Being i have been using vinegar is loads sans FS, I thought I would try it.

Again- Is is SAFE to add powdered citric acid to fs compartment? How much a tablespoon? 2? Predissolve maybe????

Also I have a mega capacity turbo lg. 4270 model, 4.5 size. I believe it said it holds 20-22 lbs of clothes. Would it be hard on the bearings to actually clean 20-22 lbs of clothes at a time. That seems HUGE!

So how much laundry would you deem as a full load in a 4.5 size machine.

For example:

How many demin jeans?

How many full size bath towels?

Anecdotally, I was chatting with a woman in the local Target in the laundry isle. She was loading her cart up with borax, washing soda, baking soda....and dove beauty bars.

She said she makes her own detergent....

1 cup washing soda

1 cup borax

1 cup baking soda

2 dove bars grated.

2 Tablespoons for full loads.

0_0

She has the same water as me, and no softened water either. She is washing her clothes, which look high end, and good quality in dove beauty bars!!!! I understood why their was a rancid b.o. smell as we were chatting. She was convinced it was more gentle on designer clothes and preserved color, and protected her delicate skin. I masked my horrified feelings, and talked to her about my laundry issues thinking she would rethink washing her clothes in dove. But no way she apparently doesn't smell any horrible smells emitting from her clothes.

Stick with the STPP. I used cLgon for years. It just quit working several years back.... I guess when they changed the formula. It is also hard to find; it is no longer sold everywhere.

I don't think citric acid is used on clothes. It is used to clean the machine. I wouldn't use it until someone with a lot more expertise than me, verifies that it is safe.

Poster "hisown" says he put 1 Tablespoon of citric acid powder into the fabric softener dispenser. Perhaps he can share more about his experience with using the citric acid powder in the rinse dispenser.

Citric acid works about the same as vinegar. I have used one or the other for many years in place of fabric softener, as I am highly allergic to fabric softeners. I prefer the citric acid powder as it has no fragrance at all, and saves me from toting around so many bottles of white vinegar. Either product helps the clothing rinse more fully, cuts static and leaves everything softer than they turn out when I use nothing. Keep in mind that I have very hard water, so someone with soft water may not notice the same results.

Neither has caused the slightest damage to my machine or clothing.

p.s. I am a she.

So @hisown, do you put it in the face compartment? And how much? I might try this.

Citric acid shouldn't be used in the last rinse...it does act as a very mild *laundry sour* where it may neutralize carbonate residue if enough is used, it does not strip out residue. Because it neutralizes carbonates it may give fabric a more smooth feel, its nothing like fabric softener though.

I put the citric acid powder in where fabric softener is meant to go.

I don't know what 'face compartment' is; I'm guessing that means fabric softener?

lol, it auto corrected and I didn't catch it. it is supposed to read "fs".

Mamap, explain when one would use a "laundry sour"?

Laundry and Cleaning News International - Understanding Wash Chemicals

The information at this link may be useful to current and future readers.

Dadoes thank you. I will get into this interesting read later.

Enduring, I've always believed a Laundry Sour should be the next to the last rinse, but I'm not sure why I think that...I probably read it. I would think our Sin could give great info on this subject. Possiably citric acid is such a mild acidic that it makes no difference. I also don't know how much needs to be used in order to be beneficial as far as neutralizing carbonates.

I know there's been a LOT of talk on the web and expecially on mommy blogs about vinegar or citric acid being a safe alternative to LFS, IMO these people are misinformed...a laundry sour is used in professional laundries because it neutralizes certain residue, and carbonates expecially that have been neutralized give the fabric a more *smoothness* not a softness. Professional laundries use a sour because if carbonates are not neutralized when the garment goes under a hot iron they can turn that striking white dress shirt a not so attractive yellow.

Everyone has their own level of softness...for me its a well rinsed garment that hasn't been over dried...but for others its the feel that a FS gives.

I do ramble at times.

Enduring,

I forgot to mention that I put a heaping tablespoon of the Citric Acid Powder in where the fabric softener is supposed to go.

Thanks Dadoes, Mamap, and Hisown. Some things to consider :)

The owner of your rental should put in a water softener to protect their investment. I cannot imagine what that level of hardness is depositing on pipes and in the water heater! We have about 7 grains of hardness on our well and I used to use Calgon before we built the house. (I had a washer outside our little trailer where we lived during construction.) It's very interesting that Calgon no longer has the same formulation. Your landlord needs education about the damage the hard water is doing to his/her/their pipes and water heater. Good luck!

We live in hard water country in the Texas Hill Country without a water softener. I don't see any of the issues listed here with our laundry. When we know the clothes are going to be 'skunky' from working in the yard on a hot day, we soak them in hot water with Oxyclean and sometimes add baking soda to the Oxyclean. They soak for 4 hours or so and then get washed normally.

My wife and I don't wear fragrances of any kind. We have inherited clothes from people who wear perfumes, and that can be harder to get out of the clothes. But with the presoak and normal washing it always comes out.

Very interesting comments on citric acid in lieu of fs. My citric acid order was delivered, and I'll have to think if I want to try it. My use of it wouldn't be for fabric softening, but to keep the internal washer and fabric fibers free of mineral buildup. Or try to reduce it. Maybe I'll experiment, and if nothing else I have citric acid to use in clean tub cycles.

I absolutely agree that this water should be softened. I honestly wasn't on the ball in regards to check if water quality when I moved and wish I did find a place with a softener installed. My husband has talked to the owner, and it doesn't sound promising. Luckily we aren't locked in for much longer and the next house we live in, whether buying or renting I will be SURE to make sure we have softened water.

I'd try Persil advanced clean, along with snuggle blue sparkle liquid. Use the softener option whether you use softener or not.