Most on this forum use Foliage Pro 9-3-6
(FP) which is a fertilizer that contains all of the nutrients that citrus trees
require. Each time you have to water, add 1 Tsp. of FP /gal of water and
use that instead of pure water. Get a cheap pH testing kit - the kind used to test the pH of swimming pool
or aquarium water. If your tap water is above pH 6.5, add enough vinegar to
adjust it to about pH 6.5. You will only have to add give or take 1 Tb/gal. So,
you will be watering with a mix of vinegar and Foliage Pro every time the tree
needs water.

Check to see if it needs water by
shoving a shishkabob skewer halfway between the tree and the wall of the pot
and all the way to the bottom. Pull it out and if you see particles on it, then
does does not need watering.

When repotting into a different kind of
soil mix, remove the old soil mix by dunking the root ball in and out of water.
You may have to use a garden hose to gently force the old soil off.

People on this forum use either the gritty
or 5-1-1 mix. The ingredients for 5-1-1 are easier to find. This is what I use:

My version of Al Tapla's 5-1-1 Mix

· 5
parts pine bark mulch (remove ½” pieces through 1/2 inch screen)

(Some people use Repti Bark instead of
mulch. This does not require screening but may require more frequent watering.)
Be sure to soak the bark overnight.

· 1
part sphagnum peat

· 1
part perlite (coarse, if you can get it)

· 1 Tb garden
lime /gal 5-1-1 mix (measure the 5-1-1 mix)

· Osmocote
plus (follow manufacturer’s instructions

·
Moisten well and wait at least 2 days before using

PLEASE NOTE: Other people with many
years experience growing citrus in containers do not use the above soil mixes.
For example, Millet (TropicalFruitForum.com) uses 9
parts Miracle Grow Garden Soil (NOT Miracle Grow Potting Soil) to 1 part perlite.

Listen to garden gal. She gives good advice.

Agreed! 5-1-1 is my favorite!

You can go through all of the long list above if you wish. Or you can simply buy a bag of Miracle Grow Garden soil, and use it straight out of the bag. Works great for citrus and used by many. Your choice. - Silica

Silica, all this talk of using Miracle Grow soil...Tell me what it's made of to convince me it will not compact and allow free drainage letting the roots breath oxygen please...Does it hold it;s structure for some time and do you have to under pot with it? What's the chances of root rot and how quickly does it dry out? Is it something you recommend to people like me that have to winterize them in doors?

What are the ingredients in it? Does the bag say?Where do I buy it? If it good stuff as you suggest for me, I would like to give it a try and see for myself..

Please get back to me.............

Thank you)

Mike, Miracle Grow Garden Soil (not Miracle Grow Potting Soil) is sold by most every nursery in America and all big box stores. You can find a list of ingredients on their web site. It was first recommended to me by Laaz (owner of the Citrus Growers Forum web site) over two years ago. I now have perhaps 15 or so citrus trees growing in it for the last couple years. The drainage after two years use is still nothing short of excellent. I'm not here to convince anyone, Use it or not, However, I can tell you many, many growers on the other forms have long used it. - Silica

Silica, there is nothing wrong with offering others more options especially if it has been tried and done well for many.....,.In fact that is very kind of you..If I find some, the right one, I will tell you how it works for me in my area..I guess I will give it a shot..Who knows, right..If I find it does not wok I can't say I didn't try at least..Thanks for responding)

Silica, could you please read me the ingredients in that bag so I know I find the right stuff?

Thanks a million

Here is the label: https://faa81132b7.site.internapcdn.net/CFLs/75030430_061715_CFL.pdf

Vlaimir, thanks..But the writing is so tiny, I can't make it out...It looks like different recipes in different parts of the country...Arg

I believe the formula is the same throughout the USA, except for the states of Texas and (of course) California. I bought a pair of hand pruners last week at Ace Hardware, and the pruners came with a sticker that said "The state of California found that an item on this product produces cancer". LOL- Silica

Maybe I'll try some of my key lime seedlings in it and see how they do. I can put some in 5-1-1 and the others in the MG garden soil to have a comparison. Silica, how often do you change out the soil in your trees?

I have used a couple of brands of garden soil to amend part of my garden, and used some of the leftovers in a couple pots this year.

Both brands of garden soil (one was MG the other was called Just Natural) were indistinguishable to me. They were visibly chunkier consistency than standard potting soils. There was a lot of sapwood in it though and I know some advise against that.

Also, the garden soil doesn't have a wetting agent listed on the ingredients. But due to this it won't necessarily re-wet evenly after drying out so you really need to water it extensively to avoid dry pockets being left as the water runs through. I found this by scratching the soil surface after watering heavily and being surprised to find some of it still dry.

It's not as porous as the gritty or bark mixes mentioned here, and gritty enthusiasts will surely consider it garbage. ;) But for those who can't find ingredients or don't want the extra work, it could be a step up from the traditional peat-based potting mixes.

Silica, I have a question. You said "you can simply buy a bag of Miracle Grow Garden soil, and use it straight out of the bag. Works great for citrus and used by many." To clarify/confirm, this Miracle Grow garden soil can be used straight out of the bag and used for *container* citrus?

What are the ingredients in the Miracle Grow bags that you have?

The Miracle Grow soil I saw was peat and composted materials..There was nothing in it to make it porous, not even perlite....Can you please tell me where to get it or what is in it????? Can you take a pic or find it on the Google and gives us the link?

Figs not for one moment do I believe that unless I can be shown what it looks like and what the ingredients are....The one I saw, the one that Vllaidmir linked me too is crap...I felt it and it's sticky not even being wet...There is nothing in it to make it porous and it does not even recommend it for pots...All I can see is Fungus Gnats galore and compression issues..

Thanks

Mike if you don't want to use it, simply don't use it. - Silica

Mike, I got my MG garden soil at Lowes. I used it for one of my figs and it is doing well. I have not decided whether I will keep it in MG or repot into 511.

Silica. I'm not saying what you use is bad. I'm asking you what's in your bag so I can make sure it's the same ingredients and make an informed decision.. They vary. Can you just tell me what's in yours ? Do you amend it at all ? Do you use small pots for small roots? Do you still have to flush salts out ? How's the durability ? Thanks

Vladimir. Thank you. Until I know exactly what silica is using and how I'll stick with the porous mixrs for now. Would love to know what silica uses and how to work with it. )

My Mother says she does not even know why I bother asking.. I am beginning to wonder the same.

Mike, I too would like to know "exactly what silica is using and how" and in the mean time will continue to use 511 and gritty for my citrus and will probably switch my figs into 511 as I have done with my gardenia and other plants.

I hope your mom is well today.

Mike, the ingredients in the MGGS I and of others on the other citrus forum are using are the same as anyone would be using is they purchased a bag.. They are: Processed forest products (bark & wood chips), Peat, coir and or compost, sphagnum, slow release fertilizer, wetting agent.

I use it straight out of the bag, however you can add perlite if you wish, I don't.

I've used it in 4" pots, 1-gal, 3-gal, 5-gal., 15-gal , 30-gal containers and larger.

Durability: The trees that are presently growing in MGGS have now been in it for 2+ years. Draining is still excellent. Soil aeration 20 - 25%.

Do you use small pots for small roots? Ans. Yes

Do you still have to flush salts out ? Ans. You can if and when it might be required. So far I have not needed to do so.

Have a good day. -Silica

figsinhawaii to answer your question, I have 15 or so container citrus trees growing in MGGS for 2+ years now, plus a dozen cultivars of container figs (also some figs in ground), and a containerized Canary Island Date Palm in a 4' X 4' X 4' container. - Silica

Silica, thank you for answering.

• Have you ever tried 511 or gritty mix?
• Do you incorporate Osmocote?
• Do you use Jack's professional 25-5-15 and if so, do you provide supplemental micro nutrients?

I have a partial bag of Just Natural garden soil still around. Ingredients listed are: processed pine bark, peat moss, processed forest products, dolomitic lime, organic fertilizer, work castings.

James, do you have a question?

Thank you Silica. Most of my mom's trees are in the ground, but she says that her container trees are potted in MG and they do fine. She's told me that because she doesn't devote much time to her trees (she has long work hours), MG soil is much easier to maintain; she uses slow-release fertilizer (so, no regular foliage pro applications), adds a bit of perlite to help with drainage, waters only about twice a week, and repots about once a year to freshen everything up. She's been using this low maintenance system ever since I was a kid. However, the reason I started using 511 is because so many posters on this forum have such wonderful looking trees and most of them use 511. Laura has some of the healthiest trees I've seen and she swears by the 511, so I could not *not* try it! I have only been gardening since last year... all of my trees that were potted last year are in soil, and mostly everything that I've acquired this year is in 511 because I started reading what everyone had to say about it. Thank you for your response.

Silica, thank you...It's great if one wants to try something easy, but easy is not always better, for plants vitality and vigor. ...I have always believed in doing whats best for my plants needs, and I found that the more porous your mix is, the healthier your plants are..I have always been a believer of growing my plants to their BEST potential, not just average growth if any.

I do know that a majority of members here have many issues using a mix like Miracle Grow while a select few do not. There are so many factors that relate as to whether one succeeds using a bagged mix such as Miracle Grow since some may have very sunny hot spots, use the proper pot size to the proper ratio of roots, use greenhouses, keep theirs in heat, are just lucky, know when to flush the salts, know how to water properly, how often to re pot, know how to avoid gnats, etc.....Some like my Asian friends only use Miracle Grow 'Soil' and then after a year or two loose them just to buy another. I have a friend that had a huge Kaffir Lime in a 30 gallon barrel using Miracle Grow 'Soil' and it got stressed every winter indoors with dampness and pests, until it finally died last year.

What I am saying I guess is that if one chooses to use a mix that is less porous than the ones I use, I suppose they risk the chance of loosing their plans without ever really knowing why...That's why I invest a bit more time into making one that does not provide all those issues for me..I have never had success using any mixes straight from a bag but the ones I make or amended versions of them.

It's great to have options, that is what makes these forums so interesting and helpful and your willingness to help others is genuine...But, since most come here to find help in providing better conditions with their plants, I found that most are using the bagged mixes to begin with.

Thanks again, thanks for taking the time to chat with me)..Mike

Mike as I wrote above, if you don't want to use MGGS then simply don't use it.

Vladimir, yes I have used 5-1-1 medium, actually used it for years. I also have used the gritty mix. I did not care much at all for the gritty mix, but the 5-1-1 is a good medium, that gives good results. Actually a 5-1-1 medium might supply too much aeration. A container medium, it is taught, should supply about 20 to 25 percent aeration. I do add Osmocote from time to time. The ONLY fertilizer that I use for citrus is Jacks Professional 25-5-15 /TM, it is certainly the best fertilizer for citrus in my opinion. I rarely add additional micronutrients, as Jacks supplies what the tree needs. However I do have a bag of STEM, and occasionally add Epsom Salts when needed. - Silica

Silica, is this the fertilizer you use?

JR Peter's Jack's Professional Calcium Magnesium LX 15-5-15 Fertilizer, 25 lb https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011POC25A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_6vs-xbW6YEAZM

is it granular to be mixed with water?

No This is the fertilizer. - Silica

http://www.bfgsupply.com/order-now/product/167/76648/jr-peters-jacks-professional-25lb-25-5-15-high-performance-fertilizer

Thanks found it! Can you tell me how you apply it Silica? How much? How often? Is it added to the mix, or mixed into watering solution? Sorry for all the questions, but I don't want to buy a 25 lb bag of fertilizer that I don't know how to use.

For those of you that have used the 5.1.1 and gritty mix for years and their fertilizer with Calcium and vinegar, and know how good it is, don't be tempted by those who say they have a better way and can't prove their claims...

Thank you

Mike, I certainly don't mean to cause you a problem. You seem like a very nice person. People on this forum asked me what I use, and I simply told them what I use. That doesn't mean that any of them have to do as I do. Once again, every one is free to use whatever they wish. As for Peters 25-5-15 it is used by the thousands throughout the USA. Peters brand fertilizers are the standard of the USA greenhouse/nursery industry. In my estimation both fertilizers, Foliage Pro and Peters 25-5-15 W/TM are very good fertilizers, worthy of use. People should choose which ever one they feel most comfortable with, and perhaps some might prefer yet another fertilizer. I've worked in the greenhouse industry for 20 years, and Peters brand fertilizers have been used in that industry longer then that. The best to you and your trees. - Silica

My experience on these forums and in my travels is that >90% of the container growing issues people arrive seeking resolution for are related to poor root health brought on primarily by a poor medium and exacerbated further by poor watering habits. Most of the growers are using soils like those specifically designed by MG to be used in containers. Soils designated on the packaging for use in gardens or beds generally represent a significant step down (in terms of [inadequate] drainage, [poor] aeration, and significant volumes of perched [excess] water in containers) from soils designated as potting soils.

The most reasonable take on the discussion is, if we use MG Potting Soils as our baseline for conventional container culture applications, odds are very very poor that we would see any improvement by stepping down to a soil designated for garden applications with less aeration and even more water retention than the soils that are already causing a very significant fraction of the problems that bring people here seeking help. I made the conventional container culture applications above bold because it's possible that the soil designated for garden applications could outperform MG's line of container soils IF the application isn't actually conventional container culture, but one where the container is effectively turned into a mini raised bed (from the perspective of hydrology). IOW, it's possible for a soil that would otherwise be unusable to be improved to the point where it IS usable by virtue of the fact that a connection between the soil in the pot and soil below the pot is maintained such that the earth acts as a giant wick, and any excessive amount of perched water would make its way into the earth via the wicking action. But again, this is the same as growing in a garden or raised bed, decidedly different than conventional container culture.

I'm with Silica in saying 'use or don't use whatever you choose', but I would encourage you to use some reasoning and look before you leap; because my experience tinkering with soils and making use of soil science has shown decidedly that better aeration and less excess water than offered by most soils widely available from store shelves leads to a much easier/productive path for the grower looking to maximize his plants' vitality - across the board. That you are able to maintain a healthy root system is an absolute prerequisite to maintaining a plant in the state of vitality we all aspire to, so think carefully before you voluntarily take a backward step that locks you in to even less aeration and more water retention than offered by soils already problematic for those very reasons.

Al

Laura, I sometimes use the Jack's Professional 25-5-15. You mix it with water as per the label and then pour it in the pot. You could use diluted as a foliar spray too. I think it is very good. I use it on my orchids too. The bag is a little hard for me to carry when the bag is full and it is not as readily found as some of their other formulas. Many citrus growers use it with good results. I usually order it on line too.

Cory

Thank you Al for such a thorough explanation, Silica for the recommendation, and Cory, for explaining how you use it. I am going to give it a try. Yes, it is a big bag, but I can keep it in my basement and store a small amount upstairs for ease of reach/use. I do wonder about the extra N...it should be a good thing.

Yes thanks to all, I agree with you Laura...

The Extra Nitrogen, I am not too sure about..I hope someone can explain it since too much Nitrogen can be a bad thing if one is trying to produce blossoms/fruit in many fruit trees, especially Citrus..Many have to pull back on Nitrogen to encourage fruit production rather than foliage...

That is why the Foliage Pro is something I have never had to worry about....It has the perfect ratio and I get both fruit and leaf production..

I would love to know if a higher Nitrogen is detrimental to flower and fruit production?

Mike

Laura, my water has a lot of calcium in it so I think I probably don't need to add it with my fertilizer although maybe it is not in the right form that plants can take up. I don't know about cobalt and don't know how plants use it either.

Cory.

Cory is correct, all most all water supplies in the USA contains plenty of calcium for a citrus tree . If one constantly uses pure rain water, then they should use tap water every now and then. You don't have to worry about cobalt for citrus. - Silica

I don't know about any of those issues, but hopefully someone will chime in to explain here. I can tell you that the reviews of that fertilizer on Amazon were by citrus owners who were all very happy. I am going to buy it and give it a try. I can be the guinea pig....;-)

There we go...Silica answered the questions. Thanks! We must have been typing at the same time ;-)

Silica...Nitrogen...what can you tell us about that??

Laura, growing orchids in bark, I used to read that urea nitrogen was not available to the plant until the bark decomposes. Now I think that has been somewhat disproven. I also think I read that the urea has biuret in it which can be toxic to some plants such as citrus, pineapple, and avocados. Chlorosis occurs on the leaves when Biuret is greater than 1.5%. I think it also damages the roots. Also I think it can damage seeds. I think there are studies being done to understand the amounts that cause problems better.

Cory

The container says 10.1 % urea nitrogen. Cory, I just read some articles about urea and the contaminant biuret. It seems that contaminant should not be present in high grade urea used for fertilizers...only if you are using cattle manure for example. It also appears that although the urea is not immediately available to the roots (it must be broken down by bacteria in the soil to make it bio-available), it is readily absorbed through the leaves. However, I would be VERY careful not to burn the leaves with the stuff. It seems a bit scary. A paper I read noted that the absorption of N through foliar spraying of urea was much higher at night versus morning or afternoon. I will try the fertilizer...I may still have some 10 years from now, but I will give it a try ;-). I will still use FP though, just hopefully won't go through so much of it.

I think it is fine as all the nurseries use it. I never had any problems with it. Interesting about foliar feeding of nitrogen being more rapidly absorbed at night vs. morning or afternoon. I had been wondering if there was any difference and even whether it was effective at night. Thanks for the information. I switch fertilizers around and try to use the ones that are formulated to match how plants use ferilizer. I also use the Michigan State University formula too.

Cory

The urea in Peters fertilizer, and for that matter, most all commercial fertilizers sold today, does not contain biuret, or is in such minute levels that it does not effect the tree. As Laura wrote above, Urea is unavailable to be absorbed by plants until it is broken down by bacteria in the medium. This process is quite rapid, and is completed with 48 hours. In ALL commercial citrus groves, Urea is the number one fertilizer of choice for foliar spraying. All fertilizers used for foliar spraying work only when the spray remains wet on the leaf's surface. After the spray dries, it can no longer be absorbed into the leaf . Urea is the one nitrogen fertilizer spray, that is very hydrophilic and will re-wet on the leaf surface when the air is humid, thus will continue to be absorbed into the plant. Urea is probably the most sold fertilizer world wide for nitrogen nutrition. It is a great source of nitrogen for a citrus tree. - Silica

From
the perspective of getting nutrients from outside the plant, inside
the plant, foliar feeding is generally extremely inefficient. In
those few plants that can/will benefit from foliar feeding,
fertilizers in ionic form are far more effective than various
emulsions/suspensions at providing supplemental nutrition, but roots
are still, by far, the more efficient and reliable pathway for
nutrients to enter the plant. Foliar feeding is best suited for use
as an intense agri-crop management tool used to compensate for
specific soil deficiencies at specific periods of growth. If your
plants actually NEED foliar feeding - by default, there is something
wrong with your basic nutritional supplementation program or your
soil, and your efforts would be better spent concentrating on
managing those issues.

Foliar feeding is usually only used effectively to
supply a few elements in ionic form (mainly N,Fe,Cu,Mn,Z), and only
when plants that are able to provide a foliar pathway into the plant
are growing so rapidly the nutrient stream cannot supply certain
nutrients fast enough.

Remember - over-supplying a nutrient the plant
doesn't need can be as bad as or worse than a deficiency. If you have
a genuine deficiency, it's better by far to address it via the most
efficient pathway - the root system. You can't make plants grow at
beyond their genetic limitations, and supplying more of this or that
than plants need is counter-productive. Trying to ensure the 12
elements you have control over are available in the soil at a
favorable concentration and in the right ratio is about the best you
can do.

I think one area where the hobby grower CAN
effectively use foliar feeding is as a 'tell'. That is to say, after
your lament and input about a particular symptom, I might suggest a
foliar application of some chemical like Epsom salts or ferrous
sulfate on part of the plant if I suspected a deficiency of Mg or Fe,
for example. Applied one at a time and given a couple of days to
work, you might be able to isolate one of several possible
deficiencies. Of course, a soil test will usually provide the clues,
but absent that, or when growing in containers foliar applications
can sometimes be used effectively to tell you what you should be
doing in terms of soil nutrition management.

The ideal ratio of N:P(hosphorous) for the average plant is about 6:1, and about 5:3 for N:K (potassium). 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers like FP 9-3-6 supply N:P at a ratio of 7:1 and N:K at a ratio of 5:2.8 ...... so just a little light on both P and K, relative to N.

25-5-15 fertilizer supplies a N:P ratio of 10:1 and a N:K ratio of 5:2.5 ..... so quite low in P (or quite high in N depending on how one looks at it) and a little light on the K compared to N. The light K content of that fertilizer WOULD play right into the hands of those wanting so supply silicon using Pro-TeKt 0-0-3, but the amount of N that needs to be supplied to ensure the plant gets enough P is something of an issue, especially if plants are indoors for part of the year (low light), AND if the source of N in the 25-5-15 is all or part urea, which tends to promote coarse growth (large leaves and long internodes). I did a very quick search on the 25-5-15 and didn't find any info listing what nutrients were in the fertilizer other than the primary macros or from where the N came, so that's still a question. I did note that what I was able to find indicated it had secondary macros and at least some of the micros, if not all. Based on what I'm seeing, I can't find a good reason to choose the 25-5-15 over the 9-3-6; and, if there was, I'd switch in a heartbeat and the 25-5-15 would be my new 'go to' fertilizer.

FWIW - Foliar applications of nutrients are most effective when applied on overcast DAYS when stomata are open, not during the dark cycle when they are closed. I'm not saying that stomata are the only foliar pathway, but when they are open nutrient entry is considerably enhanced - especially in plants like citrus that benefit from cuticular waxes that limit water loss from foliage, but also inhibit absorption of aqueous nutrient solutions to a significant degree.

Al

Mike. actually nitrogen is very good for the flowering of citrus trees. It helps to accomplishes a much better bloom. All commercial citrus growers normally apply a foliar spray of nitrogen to their trees approximately 2 months before the expected bloom date. Doing so greatly increases the bloom, plus it provides the added boost to help with fruit set. - Silica