I'd say to plant it in a small raised bed, surrounded by lawn, and fill the area with bedding annuals for the off-season. Anything extending beyond will get eaten by the mower, and with bedding annuals, you won't have to worry about anything else permanent in the area being overtaken.

Another option would be a bed bordered by cement, or otherwise essentially a "large pot in the ground".

:-)

~Christopher

In theory, a pot in the ground should work. However, it would have to be a very large pot. A half barrel would be the absolute minimum. It can share space with other plants, but they have to be able to hold their own. So far Charles and running bamboo seem to have reached a truce.

An 8 inch cement barrier didn't stop Charles so it will have to go deeper. In fact, he negotiated first one barrier, crossed a narrow path and went under another barrier of the same height. I cleared the overrun bed as well as I could (suckers still pop up) and kept only one sucker, now in grass. I hope to keep it in check by mowing often.

Don't panic quite yet, lol. Charlie is a looker (aren't all the bad boys?), you just can't forget he's also a thug. He can be manhandled into (something like) submission. The "gallica in grass" method, the huge pot (or bamboo barrier), or raised bed will all work. I've done the bamboo barrier (a LOT of work) and the "gallica in grass', myself. I'd highly recommend planting him in open lawn where he can get to a good size and yet can be kept under control with the lawn mower. Just plant him far enough away from any beds so that runners can't possibly reach into them. In order to be safe, I'd say 10' between the nearest possible victim and where you want Charlie's edge to be. This will be the least work for the most return. You WANT him to get to a good size so he can show off; you MUST keep him contained. And the lawn mower takes the least effort.

Thank you all. I'll follow all of your suggestions. Luckily we still have to decide how to go about the lawn in our backyard because the house was bought 3 years ago and we worked mostly on the frontyard (previous owners didn't do much gardening). The only trouble is that there are precious few spots with full sun in the back which I thought to use for a nice long border. with roses and perennials. Charlie was supposed to go there but, of course, now that I've learned that he's a "bad boy" (LOL!), he'll have a separate raised bed elsewhere in the yard and in a buried large barrel. Annuals sound like perfect companions, so thank you for that suggestion as well. Had it not been for this forum, I wouldn't have known about it and I even consulted a few rose books.

Vesfl, you have mentioned one of my pet complaints. Why don't detailed rose books mention the underground activities of aggressive OGRs? This info is enormously important! Another tip: buy a grafted Charles and don't plant the union below the surface. Then check regularly to make certain that no soil has piled around the bud union and no suckers from either the root material or Charles are sneaking up on you. This method can truly contain even Charles as long as the climate suits it. (Sometimes exposing a bud union to the elements can kill the desired variety and leave you with Dr. Huey et al.) Good luck with your project! Ah, the things we do for glorious Charles.... Carol

Purchase one of those large 32 gallon plastic yard trash buckets from your local Home Depot equivalent. Cut the bottom off the bucket leaving 18-24" of the top part to make a big plastic tube. Dig a hole big enough to place the bucket/tube in the garden allowing only an inch or two above ground. Fill it back in with soil. Plant Ol' Chuck in it and you've got yourself a well-behaved "Chuck-in-a-Bucket" with no worries about having it take over the yard.

Thank you, Carol. Alas I already ordered it as own root. It will be an adventure! I always order own root (which, as I learn now, is not the best idea for CdM), because I'm still confused about which rootstock is best for my garden. Some rootstocks prefer acid soil, mine is clay, and others are not hardy enough. Oh, well, ... nobody said it would be easy :-)

Neither Graham S. Thomas nor Beales, whose reference rose books I love to read especially Thomas, mention suckering for CdM.

Oops, I think we commented at the same time - trospero, many thanks for your 'Chuck-in-a-Bucket' instructions. That's exactly what I was wondering how to go about it. Now just to wait for spring to get Chuck.

I would guess that these two authors don't specifically address suckering of these roses because they assume their readers understand that all Gallicas sucker - some more aggressively than others.

I cant imagine there are many (any??) nurseries that even offer Gallicas as grafted plants, now that places like Pickering are defunct.

where are you located, vesfl?

trospero, I am located in Western NY, near Ontario.

Again, thank you so much for the instructions.

trospero, Oh, yes! She looks beautiful. I've been searching for OGR roses in partial shade because I have another raised bed that gets about 3 hours of midday/afternoon sun and, after reading the description, Ellen Tofflemire would be ideal there. No suckering problems are mentioned so I assume it's less aggressive because of Othello in the lineage, though Tuscany Superb is also gorgeous to have for a parent. And it also behaved so well in your garden! Lovely rose.

The English authors don't mention suckering because most roses there are sold grafted.

IMHO, that bucket isn't nearly large enough, and any self respecting gallica would start sulking from a lack of elbow room. You want something about twice that size.

I think gallicas are magnificent with their wild and intense colours.

However; based on what I've read and despite a preference for own root when a good option for a particular cultivar, I would only wish to have gallicas grafted with the union slightly above grade. My opinion on this is further reinforced by personal experience with one "little" foundling that suspect to be a gallica, and to be R. gallica 'Officinalis' or a closely related child due to colour, form, and habit.

Before bloom:

In bloom:

The aggressive little spreader you see here is only three years old and started from a rooted sucker I dug up beside the road; a dirt road with no traces of an old homestead nearby. It's already running across and up through the grass feet away from the decent patch I prepared. It's at a past residence, haha. I did take a start and have it where I live now, but it's planted where an Eastern Red Cedar (wild Juniper tree) used to be and is surrounded by lawn so suckers will be mown without mercy.

It's light red fading to mauvey pink and sweetly scented.

Close up and before fully opened in the morning:

So, I'm afraid unless grafted on Laxa, Multiflora, or even *gasp* Huey, no gallicas for me. Roses are briars, but I want no bully Briar bruisers in my spaces.

Sorry, Charlie!

Steven

Palatine in Canada offers grafted Gallicas, but it sells out soon after fall ordering begins. For the record, I find Paul Barden purple Gallicas to be drop dead gorgeous! I may have to get Ellen T for my tiny garden now that I know how polite she is. :-) Carol

@Carol: message me please trospero "at" gmail "dot" com

trospero,

I am new to Barden roses - where can I find Ellen Tofflemire? I also looked at helpmefind.com and agree with Carol about the Gallicas. Any thoughts about Rook?

Edited: I now see that Rogue Valley Roses has it. Thanks again for the suggestion!

Vesfl, Rogue Valley is a good source. I highly recommend Rook! A lovely deep purple with a hint of burgundy and a VERY manageable spreader. A smaller, compact Gallica maybe 3 ft. Very healthy in my garden. Carol

Thank you, Carol. I asked about Rook because of its compact size. Both are beautiful but I have limited space and would have to choose one for now. I'm so glad to hear that it's an excellent performer.

Our house was built in the late 19th cent. and my desire is to plant as many cultivars and plants from that period as the space permits, but modern creations of the old rose classes such as these wonderful PB gallicas would also be a very nice addition, indeed.

My Charles de Mills was grafted but went own root after a few years. All gallicas I've bought from rose firms, 24 in the last 22 years, have been grafted, the normal state in Sweden (perhaps in all of Europe?). Most have been well-behaved, only Belle de Crécy and Charles have gone wild and are like my 12 own root gallicas from various sources.

I agree, Vesfl. I live in a 1912 house and adore growing historical plants. Old House Gardens (online) offers wonderful heirloom bulbs, peonies, daylilies, etc.

By the way, if Trospero recommends a Paul Barden rose, his suggestion is based on highest experience. He's the breeder. (You may already know this, but I wanted to mention it in case this is news.)

I have been growing Paul Barden Gallicas for a few years now and find them to be in the spirit of antiques, but many are more polite garden plants. They are as lovely as Charles de Mills and others. There is a Paul Barden Roses website which describes both Barden roses and OGRs. The photos are exquisite.

Carol

OMG, I had no idea that he is the breeder...

Trospero, your roses are GORGEOUS!

mariannese, ever since I moved from Texas to the same zone as yours (5b), I've realized that I have to switch to once-bloomers, though my Marchesa Boccella is doing wonderfully here and it does repeat. This is an entirely new experience for me and I would ideally love to have at least one rose from each OGR class. As for CdM, armed with this collective wisdom from all of you who generously responded with helpful tips, I am optimistic that we'll put good ol' Charlie under control. I'll update you with photos in 3-4 years .

Vesfl, I moved from Dallas, TX, to Minneapolis prior to moving to Portland. A shared experience of ours--swapping our often hot and always crazy TX climate for the arctic regions, yes?

I also discovered once-blooming OGRs when I moved to the ice box of the north. (Loved the snow!) I wish I had known about Paul Barden roses at that time. In addition to Gallicas, Albas are a top class for cold zones. The pale pinks and whites are stunning with purple Gallicas! Easy care and healthy. VERY fragrant.

Another favorite Barden of mine, as well as one of my favorite roses of all time, is Marianne. I recommend this Hybrid Gallica as one to grow if you must choose but a few! Her colors are the loveliest blend of apricot, butter and cream. She's an exceptional companion for purple Gallicas. Her fragrance is one of the best. Totally healthy, no suckering to speak of and around 6-7 feet or a bit more. A nice wall shrub, fence or trellis climber or back-of-the border plant. Destined to become a classic "new OGR"! She's listed as zone 6b hardy on HMF but zone 4 on Paul Barden's website.

Mariannese, those two Gallicas were the main bugbears in my last garden, too. Gorgeous, wild things!

Carol

It's a huge transition, Carol. First I lived in the north, moved to the south and then back to the north. I think growing OGRs will be a trial despite the cold climate that they prefer, because late springs/early summers are very unpredictable with returning frosts after a steady period of nice weather. June can be endlessly rainy but then also with sudden heat days. All this can shorten their bloom time. Your experience in Minnesota (and of course others in this zone range) will be most helpful for those of us who need good advice in this area.

I don't think there is anything your climate can throw at them that will bother them more than slightly shortening the bloom time. I would recommend carefully putting a toe into alba waters. They have a shorter bloom time than gallicas, and if it rains during that time, everything balls. They also divide themselves up into healthy ones, and blackspot disasters.

I guess this is outside the Charlie topic, but while at this, any alba recommendations?

I've decided on Ispahan among damasks because of its long bloom time and it looks very enchanting, but then many others do as well - it's a fascinating world of OGRs.

Mad Gallica is very experienced and gardens closer to your area than I did in MN, so I defer to MG's expertise. However, at least a few Albas should work for you. Your spring/early summer conditions sound fairly similar to the cold, wet but unpredictable Twin Cities weather I remember, and I had quite a bit of success with the Alba class.

Alba Semi Plena is a lovely, clear white near double. Great with purple friends. One of my top roses for MN and OR! VERY disease resistant. A large arching shrub or a climber. No balling in my gardens. Good in sun or partial shade.

Felicite Parmentier has one of the sweetest fragrances of any rose and is one of my top blush roses. A medium shrub. She might ball if Albas do that in your area. She's very fully double. Thoughts on FP balling, Mad Gallica?

I also find Maiden's Blush and Celestial to be healthy. MB is largish and Celestial more of a medium shrub. I don't recall either of these balling in MN. I still grow both of these as well as FP and Semi Plena.

Vesfl, Ispahan is a great rose with a long bloom period! Mad Gallica, thoughts on Ispahan balling?

Carol

Carol,

I looked at all of your suggested albas and will go with Semi Plena, though I must say that all others are also stunning. She would indeed go great with a dark purple gallica and I love that she doesn't mind semi shade. There is the perfect spot for both of them in my garden where they will be somewhat shielded from rain by a nearby tree while still getting at least 2-3 hours of sun. I think I am set for now -- Charles will get a separate smallish but comfy bed, alba semi-plena will give a generous background to a beautiful Barden gallica, and Ispahan will be ordered next year (he's currently sold out at most nurseries). Cannot thank you enough, as well as everyone else who kindly responded to my query.

That all sounds lovely, Vesfl! Please keep us updated. Maybe some photos later? Carol