Welcome Espofford!

Have you had a chance to read the Layout Help FAQ or the New to Kitchens thread? (There are also a series of Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guideline threads.)

To help you, we need more information:

• A fully measured layout (see example in the Layout Help FAQ) - it's much easier for us than trying to "count boxes" and make guesses for partial boxes or even, sometimes, guessing if the thickness of a line affects the measurement!

• A sketch of the entire floor the kitchen is on - it doesn't need to be a measured layout, a sketch will do. We need this information to see how the kitchen relates to the entire floor (not just a couple of rooms) and how traffic flows in, around, and through the kitchen

• Where are you flexible? Are you willing to change any of the windows? Counter-height windows are a wonderful addition to a kitchen! In particular, though, can you change the windows that are below counter height?
  -- http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2484108/counter-height-window-pictures-please
  

• Can you tell us a little about you, your family, and how you plan to use the kitchen?

• Appliances & sizes you plan to have (assuming they will fit)?

• Please see the Layout Help FAQ for additional information.

Remember, the more constraints you put on a space, the fewer your options, often far fewer. Don't assume something cannot be changed until you've actually checked around for cost. E.g., on a non-load-bearing wall, it's often relatively inexpensive to change or move a doorway.

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Here are the threads I mentioned above...

Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads - These threads explain best practices/good design guidelines for items such as work zones, aisles, island/peninsula seating, etc. These threads will help you understand questions/comments you will receive.

Layout Help - FAQ for asking for layout help. It has a sample measured layout as well as a description of the other information we need

Read Me thread - Other, helpful information for using and navigating the Kitchens Forum. Especially useful if you are new to the Kitchens Forum!

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New to Kitchens? Read Me First!

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4306041/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first

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Layout Help:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

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Is there a reason you are moving the Kitchen to the larger room? While it is larger, the doors and low windows (if they cannot be changed) are definite obstacles to a good layout.

If you intend to use both rooms, would you consider a room for dish storage and cleanup and a room for prepping & cooking? And, maybe, a pantry?

Can any doors be moved? (This is where a full-floor sketch would be very helpful!)

Is there really a gap to the outside b/w the walls of the rooms? That's what it looks like based on the layout you posted.

Driveway - is there also a garage? Where is the family entrance? Where are groceries brought into the Kitchen?

This is tight, especially around the clean-up and prep space, and I've stuck storage wherever there is space:

The sink and DW could be switched, which would leave more space to stand to unload dishes, but then the Dw would block traffic from the bathroom and stairs, and there wouldn't be enough space for a corner susan. I included an integrated cutting board over the sink, to add counter space, and a fold-up counter section similar to ones found in RV's, in case you need more counter space.

Images--over window pot racks

There has to be something better! We really need Espofford to come back here to answer the questions I've asked.

This is not a slam against you MamaGoose - you don't have anymore info than I do! If Espofford is not willing to make some changes, I think s/he's going to have to face the fact that s/he's not going to get a very good layout. I've tried a few things as well and so far there is no good layout!

What is that "wall" made of- can it have cut outs from one space to the other?

She/he did state that both rooms could be utilized, so I was hoping to see what you came up with using that option, buehl. Maybe espofford has been busy looking at the pot rack pics in the link I posted--that's what I've been doing for the last hour. ;)

I'm struggling trying to come up with something functional. The doorway b/w the rooms is so narrow, the wall of windows in the smaller room is limiting, the locations of the doorways and low windows in the larger room are difficult to work around, etc. Getting a decent run of counters in the larger room is proving almost impossible.

I really wish Espofford would come back!

hopefully Espofford just lives in another time zone, and comes back tomorrow!

In the meantime, assuming the DR doorway, at least, can be moved:

Zone Map:

Could you have the low window raised up? Usually going smaller isn't as expensive as going bigger and it would make the space so much more functional I'd rather cut dollars from somewhere else and be able to utilize that wall to make a nice L lay out on that and the back wall up to the dining room door. As well if you are worried about light, you could go a bit wider on the window but at least have the bottom section to use of the entire wall.

OK I see now from buehl's design that that wall isn't as deep, so guessing that won't work. I'd hope you can at least move the dining room door opening then. Maybe you could do an L lay out down that end up to the opening to the bathroom hallway.

I don't know if it would work with your cooking/life style, but I'd prefer having cleanup and hence plates/glasses closer to the DR and the rest of the house and prep/cooking in the smaller room. So I'm thinking something like this.

I have an UTC fridge next to the prep sink and a trash cab (I forgot to add in the drawing) on the other side. The corner is void.

In the other room, you can have a snack area and storage along with cleanup.

That's kind of like a spice kitchen, keeping cooking smells separate, rather than hiding the dirty dishes in the scullery--different plans for different lifestyles and cultures. If the op doesn't do much cooking on the range, that might work well.

I wonder if that's where the range is in the current kitchen?

Sena -- IMHO, I think the refrigerator is too far for use in the smaller room - where it will be needed most, especially with the traffic that will be coming through the larger room. I also think it is much too crowded near the driveway doorway. That most likely is a busy doorway.

I originally wanted to do something similar, but the refrigerator always ended up too far away. You could turn it and put it on the wall b/w the two rooms facing the doorway, but then you have other issues with aisle space in the larger room (b/w the top wall and refrigerator) b/c you cannot have the refrigerator door opening into the doorway so you would need another cabinet b/w the wall and the refrigerator.

Yes Katherine, raising the windows in the smaller room will do no good unless that doorway b/w the rooms can be moved b/c that area is only, at best, 18" deep. (In the smaller room, it's around 21" deep.)

Until we know what can/cannot be changed, we're all just guessing. Even my layout required the DR doorway to be moved - that's the one doorway that I think Espofford may have the best shot at being able to move. Based on his/her comment about the wall b/w the rooms not coming down, it sounds like that wall cannot be modified - but again, I'm just guessing. The right doorway leads to stairs, etc., and since we don't know where the stairs are, we don't know if that doorway can move.

Thanks for so many responses! My schedule is crazy but ill
try and get back here to answer questions quicker. I have included a really quick
sketch of the whole floor plan.

-Unfortunately I cannot easily move the DR door or window.
It is an old house that has original plaster walls, moving the door would be
very difficult, every wall i open in this house is a nightmare of issues and
extra cost. IF I could move the DR door it would be to the right as that is
best for the rest of the layout in the house.

-the wall between the rooms is a solid "exterior"
stone wall. it is load bearing and 100 years old. the low window sill is just as
deep.

-the driveway/basement is the primary entrance to the house.
we have 5 car parking in the alley back there. no garage. there is a front door past the
DR that is occasionally used (street/sidewalk access) that we rarely use.

-the current small kitchen is on an addition to the house (neighbors have covered porches).
it is not heated or cooled, and has nothing underneath it. the sub floor must
be replaced as it is water damaged from the previous owner and starting to rot
out.

-I could just put cabinets or a sink at counter top level in
front of the low window, this is common in older philly houses like mine.

-I want to move to the bigger room as its bigger, hvac
controlled and has basement access underneath for plumbing/electrical.

-I own the house and live there with 2 roommates, we are all
30yr old males. I eventually want to sell or rent the house.

Please keep it coming, what you have posted so far has given
me lots of new ideas and some hope

Thanks

What size appliances are you looking at? Are you open to smaller appliances? What are you planning for the small room? Will it become conditioned space?

We need a measured layout of the bigger room to help develop a layout.

You will likely need to open the walls of the bigger room to put the kitchen there because of electric, even if all plumbing can go up through the floor. Also, will you want to vent the range hood out?

Here a couple of extra ideas to go with the plan I posted. I had drawn the plan with a bigger sink, but put a little landing space on the right side of the sink in this one.

In the plan on the right, the red rectangle represents a rolling drop-leaf table, which can be positioned across the DR doorway, for extra prep space, and kept in front of the window when not is use, or moved to the smaller room. The cabinets in the smaller room are a hutch style pantry.

In the plan on the left--a little more out of the box--the red rectangle is a large cutting board/noodle board, which spans the doorway, again for extra prep space when needed, and can hang on the blank wall just inside the door, with a French cleat. The board and the cleat would each be 3/4" thick, so it would have a 1 1/2" stand off.

I kept the base and upper to the left of the fridge in these plans, because the uppers leave more shoulder space for someone passing through, than the solid fridge would in buehl's plan. Likewise for the DW staying on the top wall, rather than on the right, blocking the back entry when in use.

Espofford...the space in front of the low window is really too shallow for a sink - if you plan to keep the smaller room accessible, that is!

The reason I put the "shoulder space" on the left was b/c the doorway to the smaller room is much smaller than the area to the right - so the left is where you need room. By not putting a counter on the right wall, it keeps the room more open and spacious as well as gives you plenty of room to go to/from the house and driveway doorway.

However, now that Espofford has replied and says he doesn't want to move or change any doors or windows, he's probably going to have to settle for tight spacing and/or extra walking.

I think Sena's layout is probably the best use of the space if nothing can be moved/changed - minus the tall pantry cab to the left of the MW b/w the MW and driveway doorway (or at least make it much narrower). Since that's the primary entry, I'd strive for at least 45" b/w the counters on the left and the pantry cabinet next to the MW - 48" would be better.

Sena's layout gives you a really nice stretch of counterspace to prep. Yes, the refrigerator is a bit far, but I'd rather have that than a space too cramped trying to fit everything in that larger room. I wouldn't mind prepping & cooking in that room - it'll be nice and bright with a lot of room to move around in and no traffic traipsing through the Cooking Zone. Neither room is open for visitors, so being in the smaller or larger room shouldn't make any difference - but it does make a difference for working in the Kitchen and keeping non-cook traffic out of the way!

I like mama goose's last 2 layouts and would consider apartment-sized appliances, especially range and refrigerator. It doesn't sound like the type of house where people would be hosting family dinners and need lots of burners and a huge oven for turkey.

I lived in a Philly row house with roommates many years ago. We had a similar converted porch which was used as a laundry room and also had a spare fridge. If you want to put the kitchen in the larger room, how are you thinking of using the back room? I'm thinking like secondary prep and storage, with a 2nd fridge, cabinets, maybe even a prep sink and counters would be useful if you and your roommates are bumping into each other in the main kitchen.

As Espofford noted in his initial post, the larger room has a lot of obstacles to a functional layout. These issues combined with the constraints on the space (no windows/walls/doorways can change) makes the room even more difficult to place a kitchen.

With roommates, it becomes even more important to create a space that is usable for more than one person - even if it's just to make breakfast in the morning or make a sandwich on the weekend. Trying to cram everything into the larger room will make it almost impossible for more than one person to work in the kitchen at the same time.

BTW...I wouldn't go with small appliances if there are three men living there!

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When you add roommates to equation, Sena's layout makes even more sense - although I might consider a hybrid of the MamaGoose's Cleanup Zone and the rest of Sena's layout. One change I'd make to the smaller room is to move the sink toward the center to create two Prep Zones, one on either side of the prep sink to allow two people to work in that space. Something like this:

Layout #2:

You have, potentially, three Prep Zones - the two main ones in the smaller/lower Kitchen and a secondary one in the larger/upper Kitchen. The secondary would only be available if no one is cleaning up or unloading the DW.

I know the prep sink in the lower Kitchen is in front of the wall somewhat, but you will probably be working mostly to either side of the sink - which puts you in front of the windows.

There is quite a bit of base cab storage in the lower Kitchen and some upper cabinet storage. To the left of the range hood, there is a 6" filler pullout. This pullout could hold spices and other cooking aids.

The Cleanup Zone is in the upper Kitchen with plenty of dish storage in upper cabinets. It's light on base cabinets, but you do have a 36" wide x 27" deep cabinet in the Snack Center.

Speaking of the Snack Center, it contains the MW. The counters and upper & lower cabinets are all 3" deeper than standard to increase storage and workspace as well as give you more room for the MW that's hanging from the upper cabinet.

You may want to invest in a rolling cart to transfer items from the refrigerator and pantries to the lower Kitchen. You could store it in the corner in the lower Kitchen when it's not in use.

There is a pullout Utility cab to the left of the refrigerator for broom, dustpan, etc.

There are two pantries. You could add a third in the lower Kitchen where I show the rolling cart - then you could each have your own pantry! If you do decide to add a third, I suggest something freestanding so it can be removed when you're preparing the house for sale in a few years.

This layout keeps your aisles wider to accommodate traffic through the Kitchens, especially the upper Kitchen. Since this is the path to/from the bathroom, basement, and driveway, you should keep the path wide enough to accommodate bringing large items or even bags of groceries without bumping into cabinets/counters or even people working in the Kitchen!

[Upper cabinet filler pullout example: https://www.rev-a-shelf.com/p-252-filler-pullout-organizer-with-wood-adjustable-shelves-wall-accessories.aspx]

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Layout #2 Zone Map:

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"I want to move to the bigger room as its bigger, hvac controlled and has basement access underneath for plumbing/electrical"

If the kitchen is in the smaller room currently, then you must already have water & electricity in that room. How has it functioned as a Kitchen all these years if you have no heat? Philadelphia isn't exactly warm in the winter (it's not like places farther north, but it still gets cold there - my DH is from Philly and most of his family still lives there. I'm from snowy Western NY - the south towns, so I know how cold winters can get!)

Where is the current sink located?

Espofford ... That is one weird layout. I feel your pain: my adobe walls are the same way. There's no changing them without expensive engineering.

Sena's plan, essentially turning the old kitchen area into a pure prep and cooking room with cleanup, beverages, snacks and storage moved to the larger room next to the dining room, looks like the best bet.

I'd put the coffee maker, a microwave, and toast-maker in the large room.

I would have two small standard refrigerators instead of one large one - one in the small room for ingredients that need to be cooked (meat, eggs, etc.) and one with a cold water dispenser and icemaker in the larger area for beverages, snacks and salad stuff (things that need no cooking).

Consider a small upright freezer in the small room for the frozen pizzas, veggies and stuff.

Lazy_Gardens - note there is no wall space for a refrigerator in the lower Kitchen - the long wall is all windows and you cannot have anything on the left wall b/c it is less than 2' deep. Anything deep there would get in the way of the narrow doorway b/w the two rooms. An undercounter refrigerator would work, but I don't think this Kitchen (both rooms) can afford to lose yet more base cabinet space to a second refrigerator - plus it would likely be more expensive to have to purchase 2 refrigerators + a freezer. In addition, I suspect any buyers would be leery of a layout that couldn't support a standard size refrigerator -- I know I would! [Standard sizes are around 36" wide, especially counter-depth, which are best for when you're trying to save space.]

If a counter-depth is too small, Espofford could always put a second refrigerator in the basement - that's what we did since a CD refrigerator really isn't big enough, IMO, for a family with two pre-teens and/or teens!

Besides, adding yet more appliances to the lower Kitchen would take counterspace away from the only place there's decent workspace!

Would putting the range just inside the smaller room crowd the door too much? The counter could be clipped, over open shelves, or the cabinet could be shallower than standard (red line). Once through the doorway, there's shoulder room. That location would make it more of a straight shot to the main fridge, and keep the cook more connected to the larger kitchen.

Having made that suggestion, I would hesitate to buy a house with a split kitchen, especially since I'm used to my efficient cockpit kitchen. Maybe it's more common in historic neighborhoods with a shortage of housing options, or housing for multiple singles or students.

You could add a closet to the smaller room, call it a bedroom, and make a few hundred more in rent each month. ;)

MamaGoose, I think it would crowd it too much - especially as it's the range - the appliance that should be the most protected! A cooktop would be better b/c it wouldn't stick out as far, but I think it would still be an issue. It would be a deal-breaker for me! So would a cramped Kitchen with everything crammed into the upper Kitchen.

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Espofford...you've gotten great advice from several people, so now it's up to you. It's your Kitchen, so you can ultimately do whatever you want. Hopefully we've provided you with enough information (our posts and the Best Practices/Guidelines threads) so you can make an informed decision. Good luck with your project and keep us posted!