what is ADR trailing?

Jackie

Trialing.

Thank you, smithdale1z, I misspelled "trialing," sorry.

Let me know if ADR needs defining.

If they have not, my guess would be that it is because they know that DA roses cannot compete with Kordes roses in a trial where no fungicides are allowed. If they have, the results would be very interesting to hear about...

Jackie

Since the Antique Rose Forum is specifically also for DA roses, I asked this question on there.

Jackie

Thanks, Jackie.

Here is a wiki link to all the roses that have or once had ADR ratings. ADR link There are no roses from David Austin but there are a few from other English breeders so I would guess he hasn't entered in their trials.

As far as I'm aware the ADR trials are for new roses released specifically in Germany. Austin roses are newly released over here although they can be imported to the E.U. by interested buyers. Here we have the AGM equivalent, although probably not as stringent, although no fungicides or pesticides are permitted in the trials which take place over several years.

There are some Austin's on the AGM list, [interestingly 'Mary Rose' has been rescinded], which we understand as it's clearly explained on the labels. To be honest, few people here would know what an ADR rose is, I don't think I've ever seen it on a label, so I'm not sure why Austin's would bother to release ' new' in Germany, which is very much a Kordes dominated market in any case, when their main market is here.

Remember too that the E.U. is a Single Market, of which we are still in, this might also have something to do with it, I'm not sure. It would be as odd for Austin's to release a 'new' rose in Germany at the same time as they do here, likewise, I don't think 'Kordes' and others release their roses in this country, at the same time as they appear in Germany, however Kordes roses amongst many others, do appear on our AGM lists, but the AGM, compared to ADR, is not a list for 'new' roses, but any and all in cultivation - even OGR's.

As a comparison, I have a British bred ADR rose called 'Armada'. Harkness introduced it here in 1988. It was later newly released in Germany in co-operation with a breeder called Rosen-Union, in 1993. It got its ADR that year in Germany.

Our AGM criteria is:

excellent for ordinary use in appropriate conditions
available
of good constitution
essentially stable in form and colour
reasonably resistant to pests and diseases.

Yes David Austin does submit varieties to ADR. Many rose breeders submit roses into the ADR trials. Austin roses are most certainly sold in Germany and around the world including new releases. Kordes also releases the new varieties in Great Britain just as Newflora has the option to release new varieties here in USA.

Marlorena,

David Austin would enter his roses in ADR trials to prove their worth, simple as that.

I would venture to say more Austin roses are sold outside the borders than inside the borders of England. Wouldn't an ADR designated Austin rose give rose lovers who garden under different growing conditions than roses in England experience, an increased level of assurance Austin roses are adaptable to more varying disease and hardiness conditions.

I would venture to say even further, that more Austins are sold in the USA than in England.

Maybe you, being in England, can ascertain whether Austin roses were ever trialed in ADR, and none received the ADR designation.

Yes you may well be right, and the U.S. would be a much larger market and as Chris above has also stated authoritatively. In fact, I've always thought/suspected that their roses are named and bred as much with the U.S. in mind, as here.

I shall be speaking with them this week regarding an order, so depending who I get to speak to, I will certainly raise the matter and see what they have to say...

It's always good to know these things from the horses mouth, so to speak...

A word about trials. ADR is probably one of the toughest trials for roses with multiple sites and a multiple year trial. Judges are from the industry and also the university system. The judging is rigorous throughout the growing season. What I like is there is no "winner" but rather all roses that can make a minimum score in both disease resistance and also for growth/flowering characteristics can be designated ADR. In any given year there can be many or very few ADR designated roses. This said other factors especially weather can affect outcomes. So a very wet cold trial time or an unusually hot dry year does affect outcomes.

I think the ADR is best used as a tool by breeders to see how their new varieties perform. It undoubtedly helps breeders assess how their breeding program is progressing. While I am sure it can be used for marketing I don't think that is the primary reason breeders participate.

I am able to look at only Kordes scores and I am often as interested in how the roses that were not designated performed as the winners. Winning or not winning is not a reason for not introducing a rose. Many very popular roses that perform very well have not been designated ADR. Some of my favorites have been so close, but did not get the designation. Many roses introduced have not been entered into the ADR program because space in the trial is very limited.

So while an ADR is quite an accomplishment it would not be my sole reason for buying a rose. I think local information is important and also if you can find information on how a rose performs in your soil type and climate it will help you choose the right rose. It is true that some roses are widely adapted and really perform well in nearly all climates, but many very good roses may be right for your particular garden site.

Chris,

Thanks for the info on ADR. Am I safe in assuming the breeders of the roses being trialed under ADR are not revealed to the judges during the course of their trial?

I find ADR a valuable tool in selecting my roses, due especially to my heavy black spot pressure and winter survival issues.

Regarding Kordes roses that have an ADR designation... If it is also fragrant, it is a shoe in to be tried in my garden. I don't believe I am alone in this approach. Kordes is doing rose gardeners with disease and hardiness issues like me a great service with their ADR program.

I am a fragrance nut. If it's not at least very fragrant I won't grow it.

Your Kordes roses like Beverly and Savannah which don't have ADR designations are still in my garden, but I deal with the additional care issues because of their fragrance.

Moses: What additional care do Beverly et Savannah need in your part of PA?

Thank you for that feedback on PE and EA. I already found DD to be a gem.

I've not heard from Austin's yet, but a couple of people on the Antiques forum claim that the ADR trials are for German rose breeders only to submit their roses. Which makes sense to me actually... and if you look at the results year on year, it tends to confirm that..

Marlorena,

Thank you for pursuing the Austin ADR question.

Chris stated in an earlier response to this post that Austin roses have been submitted to the ADR trial.

It may appear that I am looking to find fault with Austin roses. Nothing could be further from the truth. My inquisitive nature leads me to ask questions that on the surface look like I'm on a witch hunt.

If I could grow only two roses they would be Evelyn and Quietness.

Evelyn, for sheer beauty of bloom and fragrance, and contrary to many Evelyn growers, an abundance of continual blooms all season long are produced in my garden.

Quietness, for all of Evelyn's stated attributes, except the flowers are not as elegant or as fragrant, but well enough endowed with scent to please me, and extreme winter hardiness all the way to the tips. Black spot is almost nonexistent, too. This is remarkable because Quietness' foliage has a matte finish, which is often associated with black spot issues.

Thanks again for you investigation.

Moses..... that's alright, and no I didn't think for one moment it was a witch hunt, I'm merely asking the same questions really as I'd also like to know, and just putting my thoughts out there to find an answer. Incidentally, the first roses I ever got, and liked, were Kordes, - 'Lavender Lassie'..'Korresia'...'Marlena'...'Iceberg'... 'Magenta'... others I've forgotten the names, so I'm not defending Austin's in any way, just their roses are easier to obtain for me now, I have to seek out Kordes if I want them.

For me the greatest difference between the two was that if you bought Kordes, then you would get a good floriferous rose in the first season. With Austin, you might be very disappointed and do as I used to do back in the 1980's, and get rid of it after just one year, not knowing then that they needed time to show their best. I used to think they were rubbish... even now I lose patience... but we persist...

There are other breeders involved in the ADR trials. Meilland International roses have had winners as well as Delbard roses. Others have roses with an ADR designation as well. So I don't understand if it is only German breeders where does France to name one figure in.

Roses entered in to ADR have to be sponsored by a German nursery but since many breeding companies have agents or work with nurseries in Germany it usually does not present a problem. It may be more of an issue for the very small or hobby breeders.

I am loading up on Kordes ADR roses, and must have about a dozen or so now. However, I have roses that started out as resistant, but then became some of the worst offenders in terms of lack of BS resistance. Sunsprite and Floral Fairy Tale are the two roses that did that in my garden. I think, Sunprite, used to be an ADR, but I am not sure. BS will evolve, and some roses, ADR or not, will be susceptible to newer strains of BS. None of the ADR roses in my garden have suffered such fate yet, and I am hopeful they would become the care-free roses they are supposed to be for years to come...

Sunsprite is incredibly susceptible to black spot here. It defoliates by the 4th. of July. If sprayed faithfully it will hold its foliage and will bloom prolifically, but is not winter hardy and dies to the ground without protection.

In 1990 Kordes stopped using fungicides in the trial fields and really superior disease resistance started with the releases around 2000. I think the disease resistance has improved every year since then. I don't ever think the hybridizers will be out of a job since black spot and mildew are also busy mutating at the same time new roses are introduced. I think we have found out that disease resistance is a complex issue carried in multiple places in the genetics of roses. I have seen that roses once resistant have lost some resistance over time which means either we found a new strain or black spot or an existing strain has mutated.

Sunsprite was introduced in the 1970's so I would not expect it have much resistance. Another one that is quite popular and is not good on black spot is Iceberg. I am not saying all Kordes roses before 2000 will not be disease resistant but I do think that after that date the attention given to disease resistance is much greater.