what is a YOD boy?

you say you want to keep your seed PURE ... but you are starting with open pollinated seed ... that is a contradiction to me ...

if the seed is OP ... then it would follow.. that both parents are fertile.. and will give viable seed ....

i think that is one of your questions ...

ken

ps: have you considered peas ... and simple Mendel experiments ... you could probably get a couple generations in one season.. whereas with Zs ... its going to be a long wait for fruition ... in other words.. you might find a study guide easier ...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peas+genetics&t=ffcm&ia=web

Sorry if I wasn't clear. This is new and I don't know all the correct terms yet. I want both pure seed (which I know how to do) and viable seed from op zinnias. But will the viable seed produce viable seed next time?

I am growing peas and will save seed but my son is so interested in the zinnias. (BTW yod means year old, standard internet abbreviation on some boards, lol, mostly dealing with kids.) And actually where I am at I can start seeds even late in the summer and still get the flowers this season. Although, I don't know that I will. I think seed to flower takes about 6-7 weeks here and I started some in Aug. last year and had flowers through November.

Hi Linda,

" ...but that is a lot to look through with him and was looking for something
basic and to the point in the way of steps or directions. "

The basics of hybridizing zinnias are covered in the Hybridizing forum. Click on this link: How to hybridize zinnias -- its easy.

" We prefer books when possible but I couldn't find one "

Take a look at Plant Breeding for the Home Gardener

It covers the basics for the home gardener. Amazon has a Look Inside feature that lets you peak at some of the pages.

" I saw the 15+ part thread on Zinnia breeding but that is a lot to look through... "

Yes, it is a lot to look through. It's currently 42 parts.

ZM

Ok...ty! I'll check those links out! One quick question if I cross pollinate by hand 2 different varieties of OP Zinnias is the result considered a hybrid? And if so, is that true of vegetable plants such as tomatoes? I will read up and probably get the book you mentioned. I haven't read up on hybridization at all and don't know how it works compared to two varieties of open pollinated same specie plants that are different varieties (like two different types of tomatoes) that cross pollinated.

Hi Linda,

If you cross two different Open Pollinated varieties, zinnias, tomatoes, whatever, the result is considered to be a hybrid.

ZM

Ok. So I guess I had some information confused in my mind and I am going to show my ignorance on this subject. I thought I had read that if you had all OP tomatoes (but of different varieties) and you kept the seeds (without isolating them) you have a good tomato, just not sure exactly what characteristics you would have, and that that tomato plant would produce yet again good viable seeds so I didn't think that was hybridization because I read that when you create a hybrid the hybrid's seeds make low quality plants. I thought that 2 varieties cross pollinated gave viable seed and that if you continued doing that for several generations you could possibly come up with a new OP variety. So now I am wondering how you ever get a "new" open pollinated variety? I ordered the book on plant breeding so hopefully I will understand better soon!

Also, I had some op varieties of Zinnias last year that reseeded and I assume would have cross pollinated. I had a bunch of those come up and they are doing lovely, much better I think than the ones I planted this year. They are vigorous, large and beautiful. Are they vigorous because they are hybrid and their seed will be no good basically?

Hi Linda,

" I had some op varieties of Zinnias last year that reseeded and I assume would have cross pollinated. "

Some of them could have been randomly cross-pollinated, but the majority were probably selfed. There is quite a bit of natural variation in zinnias, and the "stronger" individuals are more likely to survive the natural difficulties of being volunteers. My guess would be that the majority of your volunteer zinnias are actually selfs of your last-year zinnias. Zinnias are not dependable reseeders and most people do not grow them that way.

" So now I am wondering how you ever get a "new" open pollinated variety?
I ordered the book on plant breeding so hopefully I will understand
better soon! "

That is covered on page 91 of Tychonievich's book, (that you have on order.) I will copy in a quote from page 91.

Quote: Tomato is a naturally self-pollinating species, with minimal inbreeding depression. There is little to be gained by creating F₁ hybrids, and yet open a seed catalog and you'll see many, many hybrid tomato cultivars. In the case of tomatoes, it is simply a way to keep people coming back for more. The F₂ seedlings from an 'Early Girl' tomato won't be significantly less vigorous than their F₁ parent, but they won't all look or grow or taste like 'Early Girl'. Want that tomato? Gotta keep buying the seeds. You can, however, sidestep that, by selecting the best individuals from the F₂ plants, and inbreed them over several generations to create your own inbred "dehybridized" variety from the original F₁ variety. It won't be identical to the variety you started with, but you might actually like it better as you'll choose from the variability the particular traits that you personally like best. EndQuote:

You will, as you say, "understand better soon!" The book has 215 pages.

ZM

I am an avid reader and love to research and learn. I look forward to the book! Also, I didn't intentionally let the zinnias see out and come up. The volunteers just came up in such quantity and in a good location and I decided to see what they would do and it turns out to be a lovely and vigorous group of zinnias.

I think you are also confusing hybrids of 2 parent cultivars, versus hybrids of species. Your thought are along the line of crossing species to make hybrids, like crossing a horse and a donkey.....you get a "Mule" with hybrid vigor but sterile. Crossing two different Zinnia varieties (with some exceptions), is more like crossing a golden retriever and a standard poodle. Both are dogs......just selected for different characteristics......their offspring are still dogs, and can be bred to produce more dogs.......the offspring just won't be poodles or gGolden Retrievers. There are some tetraploid Zinnias and other Zinnia species that might mess up this a bit....but most of the cultivars are selcted for height or flower size or color but will cross easily and produce more Zinnias. Zen_man here is the king of this, all things Zinnias, and the lead on all those Zinnia breeding threads (which are fascinating!!).

You are right I am confusing hybrids. I didn't know there were two kinds. I just know that what I read about hybrids - that the first generation would have vigor and the second wouldn't be any good (similar to your mule/donkey example). I thought this meant when I planted a purchased hybrid like Ichaban Eggplant (the only hybrid in my garden) or some other kind like Better Boy or Early Girl Tomato that I shouldn't keep the seeds.

So when I say crossed zinnias being hybrids I thought this was the same. Oddly prior to this thread I thought crossing zinnias was like your poodle/golden retriever example. I didn't think this cross pollinating was called hybrid thus my confusion. I'm sure I am still not clear but my book will be here today! :-)

Also I don't know what "parent cultivars" are but I will find out and that will probably clear some things up. I understand what species are (or I thought I did, lol)

Hi Linda,

" I just know that what I read about hybrids - that the first generation
would have vigor and the second wouldn't be any good (similar to your
mule/donkey example). "

Well, in the horse/donkey thing, the first generation is the mule, which does have vigor, but there isn't any second generation, so whether or not the second generation is "any good" or not isn't a valid question. That is an inter-species cross, and you won't be making any inter-species crosses -- at least not until you reach an advanced stage of zinnia breeding. So far none of my inter-specific zinnia crosses have been successful. All of my intra-species zinnia crosses have been successful. And there have been hundreds of them.

" I thought this meant when I planted a purchased hybrid like Ichaban
Eggplant (the only hybrid in my garden) or some other kind like Better
Boy or Early Girl Tomato that I shouldn't keep the seeds. "

If you save seeds from an F1 hybrid, the F2 generation won't "come true" and that was covered in the quote from Tychonievich's book that I included above. The seed companies don't want you to be saving any seeds, they want you to keep buying seeds from them.

The common advice is not to save seeds from F1 hybrids, because the F2 generation can differ wildly in many different ways from the F1 generation. I am saying that if you are looking for new forms, differing wildly is a good thing, not a bad thing. And I am saying not only should you save seeds from your F1 hybrids, you should go ahead and make various crosses between your F1 hybrids.

And simply go wild -- make hybrids between hybrids between hybrids, without stop. They say you have to break some eggs to make an omelet, so break some eggs. Rose breeders routinely make hybrids between hybrids between hybrids for generations to get their marvelous results. Do the same for your zinnias. There is no telling what you might get. And stay on the lookout for interesting mutations, and make liberal use of them when you find them.

ZM

Linda, start your reading on the basics of pollination, then cross pollination, and self pollination. You are getting a little ahead of yourself by talking about hybridization, etc.

It's wonderful that your son is showing an interest. The two little girls next door have been helping in my garden for about three years; they are now 7 and 9! Initially, they were "helping, haha" but I now consider them valuable assistants.

We homeschool also and my older sons could care less about plants, except the eating part. My 11 year old son does have an interest. I let him choose what he wanted to grow and then helped him grow it. He chose blueberries and raspberries. For my area blueberries were easy. Raspberries are not suppose to grow here but we were able to get a couple of crops before they died. He does not like tomatoes and has know interest in growing them. This year my 11 year old and 8 year old boys are growing their own cantaloupes.

In plants, you have open pollinated plants when they have been stabilized for many generations to get out the unwanted traits. A producer would have problems if his orange fleshed watermelons produced red flesh watermelons 10% of the time. To do this you try to get all the genes to be the same.

If you are more use to cattle, think of Herefords and Angus as being open pollinated. You know what they will produce. If you breed an Angus with a Hereford, you will always get a white faced, black cow. That would be your hybrid. If you breed the white faced, black cow, the offspring will vary. Some may be be red coated, some black coated. That would be the seeds from a hybrid plant. Some hybrids breed true better than others. It depends on how may "heterozygous" (mixed genes) there are. If most of the genes are homozygous (same genes) then they will be more stable. A Brangus cow is a mixture of 2 separate species that has be stabilized and now breeds the same type of cow.