Great question! I have no answers, but this is a great question. :-) Carol

I thought I read the Atmore one tested negative for RMV (VI). I have both here, and may find out differences down the road. I got Atmore from rosepetals, and Thomasville from ARE.

The little I know of it........

"Atmore Lamarque" refers to material propagated from a specific plant of 'Lamarque' growing in California and planted almost 150 years ago. That particular 'Lamarque' has been ELISA tested and came out clean.

"Thomasville Lamarque" refers to a rose which has been grown as 'Lamarque' in the south, along the east coast of the US, but which isn't considered to be the "true" 'Lamarque'.

From what I remember, both plants are similar in habit, and would provide the same effect. The main difference from a gardening perspective is in the blooms -- "Thomasville Lamarque" has slightly smaller blooms but with a few more petals which give a button eye, while 'Lamarque' (and, thus, "Atmore Lamarque") have slightly larger blooms with somewhat open centers.

:-)

~Christopher

And we know that the Atmore Lamarque dates to the 1860's -- which made it no surprise that it tested clean.

I've actually never seen the Thomasville Lamarque, so can't speak to that.

Here's one Lamarque in the Sacramento Historic City Cemetery (but not in the confines of the official Historic Rose Garden) which has been kept chopped down like a bush.

The Historic Rose Garden has a second plant of this, grown from one further away in the Cemetery. It's the normal huge thing.

So how do you know which Lamarque you have? I just purchased two from ARE and I don't remember reading about a distinction of what Lamarque they carry and sell. Jeri and Kim do y'all happen to know which one ARE sells? Not that it matters really but would be nice to know :) thanks

I don't know for sure as I've not grown theirs. I would imagine it might be the Thomasville type as that should be the prevalent version in the south, shouldn't it? ARE should know for sure and should be able to tell you what the provenance is. Aren't most of their OGRs foundlings from the area? That's why we've tagged this one "Atmore" to differentiate it from others to keep them straight. We KNOW Atmore is tested RMV free. Unless the source for the others has the documentation whatever they offer has also been tested, there isn't any way to know.

No. ARE historically has sold the "regular" 'Lamarque'. What clone, I do not know. But . . . let me tell you a story.

When the Atmores came to me at a rose show, saying that they had a family rose they would love to ID, I told them we would be there again the next day, if they would like to come in with some cuttings.

I did warn them that immediate identifications were not all that common. (I do hate to disappoint people, and you know how it is.)

Next day, when the show opened, there they were with this huge armful of wonderful lemon-tinged blooms.

Sitting in front of me on the "Information" table was my copy of "LANDSCAPING WITH ANTIQUE ROSES", by Liz Druitt and Mike Shoup. (Much newer then, than it is nowadays.)

When they walked up, I flipped the book open to Pg. 181, and silently pointed. The match was identical.

Cool! That should answer the original question!

Hmmmm....well after hearing Jeri's story I would assume they have the Atmore Lamarque but the the only way to know is to ask so a phone call to ARE tomorrow morning should answer the question. I'll let y'all know what they have to say.

Edited: Kim looks like we posted at the same time.

No, it wouldn't be the "Atmore", but it would be the same type as opposed to the Thomasville with the smaller, tighter flowers. Remember, both "types" have remained in commerce for a long time and if the plant ARE sells has ever been commercially budded on infected stocks, it may be infected. Atmore is the same flower/plant, but it is virus indexed, so no, it is not "Atmore". Obviously, Atmore was never budded as it wasn't the normal method of production through the Civil War in the US. If ARE's clone is tested and found to be clean, you could equate them.

I think I understand what you are saying but I can see where this could get confusing. I am going to call ARE in the morning, but either way I just hope my Lamarque grows to be huge and beautiful lol.

Perhaps it would be best to refer to them as "California type" and "Thomasville type"? That helps prevent the confusion. Atmore is a sub set of California type. If it's at all happy, it should get HUGE. This is a one gallon, own root Atmore I gave to a friend in Torrance, CA

Here is a link to some discussion on HMF about a possible ID for "Thomasville Lamarque

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.6256&tab=32

There was a famously huge 'Lamarque' in San Antonio, TX; perhaps the ARE clone came from there?

Virginia

ETA: Perhaps it wasn't actually 'Lamarque', but a 'Lamarque'-type...

I never asked ARE where they got their/my first Lamarque. I assumed it was Thomasville type, but having both it and Atmore it will be fun to compare. My ARE Lamarque is 2 years old, and was lovely. At less than one year it got struck by what seemed to be Downy Mildew during Fall rains. I put horse manure around it and it survived, but hasn't regained it's initial beauty yet a year later. I transplanted Atmore (9 months old) into the ground in March 2017 and it had a rough transition to the ground from a pot with a cold wet Spring. It is growing well now and budding up. Jesse Hildreth died of the same weather that Atmore survived. Obviously I am having more problem with these than I have experienced before here. This could affect my comparison. A Californian might get to compare roses without PTSD.

I'm hovering, reading along with the flow of the conversation and learning oodles about Lamarque(s). Thank you all! I think I'm going to print this thread and tuck it into M Shoup's Empress of the Garden book for future reference. Carol

Well I called ARE and the lady that answered the phone was no help. She states that she has never heard of the Thomasville Lamarque or the California type of Lamarque and she has worked at ARE for 30 years and they have had their own mother plant for that amount of time or longer. She was very nice but had no idea what I was talking about lol. I'm going to look at my Empress of the Garden book and see if there is an email for M Shoup and maybe he can answer our question. Although I'm sure it is the California type after reading Jeris story, I would still like to know now that my curiosity has been peaked and I don't understand how ARE could not know which one that they have or how they don't even know that their are two types.

I don't know anything about the different clones of Lamarque, re your question about how big it gets in warm climates - here is a picture of one which has been growing (accd to the previous owner of the house, who grew up there in the 1930s & 40s), there since the 1920s. This pic was taken from a neighbor's back garden, where it is leaning over the fence. This is only about 25% of this bush. It blooms here 10-11 months a year. Gets no care whatever, no water during our normal summer drought from May to Oct, and is healthy.

Jackie

(for scale, that is a 6 ft fence)

If you're on Face Book, Mike Shoup is a member and can easily be contacted there. It just shows "self employed", "owner at ARE", but no method of contacting him other than either private messaging or posting to his wall. I posted the question to his wall, asking if he knew or remembered the provenance of that rose in their selection as there was a question whether it more resembled the CA form or Thomasville type. If/when there is a response, I will post it here.

Would love to know the answer.

This is such an interesting discussion about a rose that I believe I have been in love with since age 5. Yes, age 5. Something only a dedicated rose fanatic understands, right? I can't be sure, but I believe Lamarque was the glorious white rose I spotted in my youngest youth during a family vacation in Galveston. I wish I could remember exactly where I saw it. It must have been somewhere close-in near the town's center. Later in life, I guessed at an ID and told myself the answer is Lamarque.

If my memory serves me and my imagination is accurately reproducing the descriptions of the two Lamarque types, I believe ARE sells the southern/Thomasville type with smaller, tighter blooms. I also believe that Lamarques I spotted in gardens across North and Central TX fit the Thomasville description. Pale lemon on the base of petals and shading the fresh central petals is noticeable in those TX roses, but it looks like that characteristic is true of the California Lamarques as well.

Kim and Boncrow, I am looking forward to reading Mike Shoup's reply (if he gets a chance to respond). This is a little piece of my personal history as well as a larger historical question. Carol

Thank you all for all this valuable insight into the different Lamarques!

To be honest, I felt kind of stupid even asking about it lol but it has been bugging me for a while so now I am glad I asked :)

I read somewhere on past threads that Vintage may have had the Thomasville Lamarque ? Does anyone know for certain? I wasn't around this forum yet and so missed out on Vintage roses (darn darn).

I saw that Rose Petals has Lamarque and the Atmore Lamarque both listed. A Reverence for Roses only lists a Lamarque but doesn't specify which one. I may order one of each variety that I can find, and try to observe for any differences.

I really like the button-eyed appearance on roses so I am glad that I will be able to have some with that quality.

Roseseek, Jeri, & Jackie, Thanks for the eye candy! Lamarque is just so gorgeous and if it gets that large with no attention paid to it, I am positive it will be a monster here as well. Our rainy season is during the summer and the plants all grow like wild things in the humidity. I better plan for lots of space!

We should call this thread : Lamarque- Demystified! lol

Sultry I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread lol. I'm glad you posted this question, I had no idea about the two different types so this has been educational to say the least so thank you!

Roseseek I do not have Facebook so I'll look forward to hear from you Mike Shoups response.

Jasmine, you could just buy whatever you find, but I would ask first what the provenances are of the plants offered. Lamarque is a great rose (I have two Atmores) but it does want to be LARGE. If you can determine the sources which sell the same type, you can cut it down to two or three plants.

That would be ideal ..if I can figure out which Lamarques are which. I will definitely be getting the one labled Atmore first because its such a beauty and I love the story/history that goes along with it. I am such a sucker for rose history, it turns out..I never was crazy about my history classes in high school or college but add plants to it..its a whole other story lol.

boncrow, please feel free to add whatever you wish to the thread. This is how we all learn from one another. Love it!

I have the Lamarque from A Reverence for Roses potted up and ready to plant this fall. After seeing these lovely photos, I'll probably choose another location with room to spread! Thanks for sharing.

Sultry, it might be interesting to add a "Brightside Cream" to your mix of comparison roses. It seems to be closely related to 'Lamarque', and might be the same rose as the "Flores St. House-Eater" of San Antonio (the original plant is gone, but cuttings may have preserved it?).

I have no way to find out, but I do wonder if 'Triomphe de Rennes' might be one of these Lamarque-ish roses...?

nancylee, I think you'll be doing yourself a favor if you give your 'Lamarque' plenty of real estate. Looking forward to hearing how it does for you.

Virginia

I would think examining the descendants of Park's Yellow Tea-Scented China would be the first place to look for potential identities for types such as Brightside Cream.

And "Jesse Hildreth" -- which surely must be related to that group of roses.

I visited the U.C. Berkeley Botanical Garden recently. Lamarque is growing on an arbor in their Garden of Old Roses. Does anyone know which one they have?

I do have Jessie Hildreth. It is the slowest growing rose I have. Its a year old and tiny lol. Its in a pot and I bought it when I bought a lot of other teas and noisettes about the same time. The others all either double or even much much larger than JH.

Is Larmarque slow to get going?

vmr..I remember reading the Flores St House Eater thread and thinking, Darn I want that rose lol.

I have an acre thats empty on the back of the property with some sun. Just needs brush and grass cleared. I can plant many monsters there. Problem is there is no water spigot out there and Im not hauling water in this heat lol. I will have to try and talk dh into putting something out there for water. He is pretty handy but hates anything plumbing related although he can do basic plumbing stuff.

I was thinking of putting baby goats out there but Im kinda nervous about them being that far away from the house where I cant hear them since we have coyotes, foxes, bobcats, and the occasional blk bear or fl panther. Maybe roses might be better there.

Kim, do you mean "Brightside" might be a descendant of 'Park's Yellow' other than by way of 'Lamarque'? Or do you mean that you think 'Lamarque' is not a descendant of 'Park's Yellow'?

It wouldn't surprise me if "Brightside" were a 'Lamarque' relation/descendant. In fact, I kinda like the idea that it's the long-lost 'Triomphe de Rennes'... Betcha couldn't see that theory coming!...

Virginia

Sultry, I think I recall reading that someone working at a Texas rose nursery thought "FSHE" might be "Brightside Cream". Maybe so, maybe no...

"Jesse Hildreth" was slow to start here, too. And for the first few years, he grew OUTWARD, rather than upward.

It's now been 4-5 years in the ground. He's growing nicely upward.

After each flush of bloom, he hurries to cover himself with new buds. I would say that he does that, at the expense of growth -- so if pushing growth is needed, I'd recommend that you disbud religiously.

Do I do that? No.

I enjoy the blooms God gives me, and allow things to take their course. Who knows? I might not be here next year, and I'd rather have enjoyed the blooms.

"FSHE" ???????

Translation needed!

I just realized I knew Barbara (hunnybunny2) on the FSHE thread from the brugmansia forum a long time ago. I think I was her 'Secret Santa' one year lol. Small world :)

Flores Street House Eater = FSHE

Thank you Jeri, He does bloom a lot. I will try disbudding him so he has some chance to bush out more. He is a little trooper.

I bought a "Lamarque' from A.R.E. seven years ago and I grow it as a self supporting bush, of 6 feet tall by c. 4 feet wide.

-I was disappointed when I received it because the foliage was not as spectacularly pretty as the leaves on a Lamarque' I had seen growing at Morcom Park A. of R. in Oakland. Ca.

My 'Lamarque' has a nice scent (which includes a faint whiff of lemon flower and what one author calls "meadow") but it is a very light scent, I'd rate it as having , when conditions are at their very best only one f, out of ffff. Usually it is less than that, c. one half of an f.

I collect Tea roses and have a few Noisettes and am blessed to have the olfactory receptacles needed to detect Tea rose scent.

sigh,

ever in search of a perfect rose.

Lux.

Does anyone on the antique rose forum still have any starts of the Flores Street House Eater rose? I did not see any page on hmf on it either. I know it was just a name given to it maybe like a study name? Is anyone still trying to identify it? I don't see that Barbara (hunnybunny2) has posted recently. I tried following her so I could ask if she still has hers. Hope she can check in sometime. I don't know who else to ask.

ETA: never mind I did find the FSHE on hmf. It didn't come up when I searched on google but came up when I specifically search on hmf. Maybe this will help someone sometime so thought I would just add it here.

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.78295

Virginia, what I suggested was to investigate the descendants of PYTSC to see if any of them sound as if they could resemble Brightside. Malcolm thinks he has it figured out how to test to see which candidate for Parks is the real one. There are several offspring which are almost selfs (Parks X ?) X Parks kind of thing. Test enough of them and you can find relationships, potentially figuring out who's the mama.

Luxrosa, thank you for the info on your Lamarque. The fragrance sounds pretty. I like lemony fragrances. I can also smell my tea roses but some are stronger than others and its better when the humidity is high. Interesting about the foliage being different with the different Lamarques. Really makes you wonder if they are indeed different seedlings.

vmr, I was looking at the foliage on the Flores Street House Eater thread ( http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1620004/flores-street-house-eater-san-antonio ) where the poster named petra had posted a good photo of the FSHE rose. The leaves are noticeably long. They do look like Jeri's photo of the Atmore Lamarque on a different thread where FSHE was also mentioned here: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3472095/the-atmore-lamarque?n=17

So here is my question: Do all the Lamarques have these long leaves? It seems like if the Flores Street House Eater was a Lamarque, it would be the Thomasville Lamarque being that it was in Texas but who knows lol. How about Brightside Cream: how long are the leaves on that one? The plot thickens...

~Sjn

I posted about the inbred family descending from 'Park's Yellow Tea-Scented China' in this thread -- scroll down to the last few to see.

:-)

~Christopher

SJN -- All the Lamarques I've ever seen, in multiple places, have those nice long leaves.

And -- There's no reason at all why Flores St. House-Eater should be the same as Thomasville Lamarque. Each was collected or recorded in a different place, by different people with different ideas. That's why some roses end up with a plethora of different study names.