Could you please post a sketch of the entire floor? It helps to actually see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of your home and how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen.

Could you also please tell us about your and your family -- composition, # of children and their age ranges, how you plan to use the Kitchen, etc.?

The Layout Help FAQ describes the information we need to help you get the best layout for your space:

How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767033/how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-and-what-information-should-i-include

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Oh, dear, where to start. I have a weird kitchen. I'll post photos and our current floorplan. We're just taking out the wall with the fridge and the double ovens because behind it is a dark bowling alley and an unused room that's perfect for a huge walk in pantry. Here is the kitchen from the living room:

Now from the dining room:

And the back hallway from the family room:

And lastly, the current floorpan with the walls we're going to remove in orange and a dotted line for the new wall with a door.

The particular issue is that the kitchen is open to the second floor. Thus the 2 island concept.

All right, now current things that are wrong with the kitchen: 30" cooktop too small. I want a 36". I was given a 36" all fridge sub zero and am working on the matching all-freezer. I chose Miele CSO and 30" convection ovens in place of the Frigidaire 27" I currently have (but can't open the drawer or cabinet next to it. I hate blind corner cabinets, enough said, The bad: the main sink needs to stay where it is due to the vent stack that vents 2 more bathrooms and is thwarting my remodel issues elsewhere. The plumber said the stacks can't be moved and in order to get a prep sink in, it needs to be able to tie into that stack. I can't get a stove hood in - there's no way except to run a pipe and cut through the beautiful ceilings. There is no wall to run it up. The house is a post and beam modern rustic built on a steep cliff in the redwood forest. Which means that under the kitchen is the crawl space which is cavernous and where all the pipes and utilities run.

The current utility room is cramped and so is the backyard access. I want to shift the wall and make a true pantry/mudroom (mudroom-ish because the climate is mild here). Everything is cut up in my current kitchen and I'd like counter space - for cooking, entertaining, baking. It's a family kitchen with a big extended family and there's lots of room here to have everyone over. I'd like them to be comfortable.

Oh, 1 last tiny detail - the view from this kitchen:

Sorry our trees are a bit furry.

Anyone?

Looking at it! (I probably won't have anything to post until later tonight or tomorrow, though -- I'm working on a blank slate right now to have something to work with.)

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Be aware when you start telling us key items cannot be moved that you are limiting your options. I understand why you say they cannot be moved, but I wanted you to be aware that not being able to move the sink and, from what it sounds like, not allowing a prep sink, are major constraints.

I'm not saying we won't be able to come up with good options, I'm just cautioning you about major constraints. (You probably already understand, but just making sure!)

Thanks, I really appreciate it. I just got pulled into a dead trash compactor switch (new kitchen can't come soon enough).

Where exactly is the stack that all your plumbing ties into?

Does that wall have to come down completely?

You see the picture from the dining room? The plumbing stack runs along that weird half wall behind the sink and runs up the vertical wall where the overhead cabinet is across from the fridge. We were going to take the piece of wall out in between the two entrances to the kitchen from the hallway only, leaving room for the fridge where the current overhead cabinet is. That piece of wall stays as it also has the built-in vacuum tubing.

I need to also mention that the utility room isn't the same on the floor plan. The laundry room is actually upstairs in this house, so the closet for the bedroom is where the washer/dryer is and the other side is an alcove in the bedroom, making that room very small. It would've made a decent powder room as is, but I already have a bathroom. It's literally just an unused empty room.

Budget for this massive reimagining?

100k for the kitchen.

The reason I asked if the entire wall b/w the entrances has to come down is b/c you want wall ovens -- and that means wall space is needed for both the refrigerator and the ovens.

In addition, putting the refrigerator next to a sink that we have been told cannot move may not be the best move b/c of the subsequent lack of counterspace b/w the sink and refrigerator.

Can the sink move at all? Is there some leeway (e.g,, 12")?

Could you please provide us with the manufacturers & model #s of the refrigerator and any other appliances that are staying or that you already have/have picked out? It will help determine how much space is really needed for each appliance and, in the case of the refrigerator, determine spacing needed to install it so it can be opened fully without having to move it.

Some things to keep in mind:

Prep Zone

• This is the most used work zone.
• Key components of a functional Prep Zone are direct water source and sufficient counterspace adjacent to the sink (with no DW in the middle of it) - bare minimum of 36", but 42" or more is much, much better.
• The next most important "component" is location -- it should be next to or across from the Cooking Zone and the cooktop. There shouldn't be any island dodging, etc.

Does that wall have to come down? Could it be reconfigured instead?

BTW...if you have a separate pantry, do you really need a pantry cabinet in your Kitchen?

Yes, of course the sink can move along that wall. Apparently, code requires the vent to run horizontally for x amount at an angle (I don't know what the specifics are, just that there isn't a way to put this plumbing anywhere else). No, I don't need a separate pantry. The whole point of all that unused space was to use it. That's why we're moving the wall and the doorway to make it more convenient to the kitchen. I'm also open to using the back wall of the hallway. There's a cold air return that can be moved. I'm short and don't have much use for overhead cabinets. They collect junk I don't use. I'd like my dishes stored closer to the dining room as we use it for regular eating (and it has beautiful views).

We're removing the weird built-in pedestals to the entrance of the dining room (they really just collect bugs) and extending that wall about 2ft if I remember correctly so the entrance matches the entrance from the living room on the other side. That gives you 2 ft extra along that wall (the measurements on the plans are correct- my husband double checked them and he's an electrician).

ok - my appliances:

miele dishwasher

miele CSO

Miele regular convection oven

36" wolf cooktop (with downdraft - the Best Cottura model)

36" Sub Zero all fridge

36" Sub Zero all freezer (ok with freezer being in pantry)

24" beverage fridge

Somewhere for a microwave (we have a freestanding Panasonic Genius off Amazon)

15" trash compactor (the 1 thing my husband wanted)

The CSO is 24" and the convection oven is 30". I should also mention that I often make large batches and freeze. This is how I feed my family during the week. We also live 25 min currently from the nearest grocery store because our road collapsed into the neighbor's yard and the county isn't going to repair it until Fall (have to drive the long way around). So I now either shop once per week or have groceries delivered to my parents house to pick up when I pick the boys up.

"...trash compactor...the 1 thing my husband wanted"

If that's all he's asked for, then definitely include it!

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"ok with freezer being in pantry"

Just be aware that heat and food storage don't mix. Pantries should be cool, dry, and dark. Adding a refrigerator or freezer to a pantry introduces quite a bit of heat.

I'm not saying don't put it in the pantry, I'm just warning you so you can be proactive about mitigating the issue -- it's easier to do it while remodeling than to try to fix it later.

To mitigate the heat issue -- include very, very good ventilation and/or keep the pantry door open as much as possible.

Which SubZero column do you have?

Sub-Zero IC36R 36 Inch Full Refrigerator Column

(https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/IC36R.html)

-or-

Sub-Zero BI36RO 36 Inch Built-In Full Refrigerator

(https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/BI36RO.html)

-or-

Other model?

(https://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Sub-Zero%3BFull+Refrigerator%3BRefrigerators/N~26+4294801192+4294838498)

I have the 601R and 601F - they are the same size as the newer models.

The "pantry" has an exterior door and a window. It's not a closet, but I get what you're saying - the fridges do produce a lot of heat.

As far as I can see the aisle measurements shown on the layout you posted do not take counter overhangs (usually 1.5") into account. So the 41" aisles b/w the cooktop island and the parameter cabs would actually be 39" and the walkway b/w the island and the exterior wall would be 43". Also the seating o/h looks like it'll be shallow at 12" only. Your kitchen is by no means a small one so I think you should aim for more comfortable aisles and seating o/h.

I can't get a stove hood in - there's no way except to run a pipe and cut through the beautiful ceilings.

I wonder if moving the cooktop against the hall wall or DR wall can make a difference?

Here are 2 more suggestions for you.

Island and the main sink counter are the same in both. I have 48" aisles around the island and parameter cabs so you and any helpers/snackers can move in the kitchen w/o disturbing each other even when appliance doors are open.

I hope you can have a prep sink at the location I'm thinking since having the trash b/w the cleanup and prep zones would be more functional and having the sink at the end of a counter run may not be ideal.

Layout 1

Layout 2

Wow, thanks. I believe the prep sink will work in the island if it's close to the main sink. The plumber just asked to see the final drawing before I ordered cabinets (prep sink has to be vented in cabinet, then tied in to main stack).

Unfortunately, the hood situation is bad. The hood pipe can't be recessed into the hallway wal because of the giant beam holding up the second floor (the hallway upstairs is cantilevered off that beam, which is why the back wall of the kitchen can be removed and replaced with a beam - it's not load bearing, but that hall wall has a serious foundation in the crawl space. On the other side, there is no wall above to continue the pipe. I saw the downdraft I picked out and Wolf OEMs it and spoke to both manufacturers and it actually works. I don't do crazy cooking inside. I have an outdoor grill the size of a car with a couple of side burners, one being heigh BTU if I wanted to set the forest on fire (just kidding of course, we have fire parenoia here).

How big of a kitchen sink should I get? The designer wanted to limit me to a 33" because the 36" cabinet is the largest cabinet without a center style in front. I don't like my double bowl and want a single bowl for all those large items that need to be hand washed (trays and the huge stock pot).

How big of an overhang do we need for comfortable seating, 18"? Nothing about my current kitchen is comfortable and it's got a lot of wasted floor space.

I really like your trash compactor suggestion and you just gave me the brilliant solution to the snack center. This is going to turn out really great!

Just getting back to GW -- b/w family & work, my time was limited this past weekend.

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"How big of a kitchen sink should I get?"

I would try for at least a 30" sink base cabinet. It should fit a sink b/w 27" and 28.5". That size should fit just about anything. If a 33" or 36" works in the layout, then go ahead and get a larger one.

If you were getting a two-bowl sink, I'd say at least 36" - even with a 60/40 or 70/30 split. But with a single bowl, a minimum of 30" is probably enough.

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"How big of an overhang do we need for comfortable seating..."

That depends on the height of the counter. The minimum recommended overhangs are below. Note that these overhangs are for short to average heights/leg lengths. If you or anyone in your family is tall (say, 6' or more) or have long legs, then I would go with a deeper overhang (maybe another 3" depth).

• Table-height seating (30" off the floor)...18" of clear leg/knee space
• Counter-height seating (36" off the floor)...15" of clear leg/knee space
• Bar-height seating (42" off the floor)...12" of clear leg/knee space. However, if you plan to eat meals at this height, you need at least 18" of depth for plate + glass.

For all three heights, a minimum of 24" of linear space is needed per seat. Note that there have been some rumblings in the Kitchen Design world that for table-height it should more like 30" of linear space per seat -- but I have not seen that "officially" stated anywhere and based on my experience, I think 24" is fine for table-height seating for most people.

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Regarding a hood...have you considered building out the wall another 9" or so and then the soffit the same. Then, run the hood duct up inside the new depth and into the new part of the soffit and then out to the outside?

From the pictures, it looks like the soffit goes across the Kitchen to the outside wall. Is that correct?

(Or, is the soffit really just the ceiling?)

I have a blank slate that I'll post. I haven't had time to work up a layout, but I do like Sena's layouts.

Let me know if the blank slate is correct, please.

Blank Slate:

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Possible soffit location? Or, just ceiling??

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It's not a soffit. It's a light fixture. We're taking these out. They are fluorescent strip fixtures that collect bugs and look absolutely horrible from the 2nd floor. We have them in the living room as well. It's supposed to illuminate the wood ceiling and we have new modern (and cheap LEDs now.

I hear you on building out that wall, but then I'd have to reframe the doors and the transom windows on that wall on the 2nd story. Believe me, our architect is a friend and he's been out to the house. There's just no way to get that hood in the kitchen without running a pipe straight up through the ceiling. That's why there's a downdraft there now. at some point the expense and hassle of a stove hood just isn't in the budget. I'd rather have new front doors.

The designer did take into consideration the 1.5" overhang - it's in her drawings. I also have an extra inch that's not reflected (more room). And she said she has 15" for an overhang. The mock up was a bit sparse because she wanted me to be sure before she did the full drawings. I have a few final decisions to make.

She had the sink cabinet at 36" for a 33" farmhouse sink. This is 3" bigger than the double sink I currently have.

Wow, so much to think about. You guys have introduced a bunch more things for me to think about! Thanks!

Yes, your blank slate is correct.

Deck off the kitchen:

The pirate deck above is off the master.

Picture of second floor (please excuse the mess, my toddler just went to sleep)

See what I mean about the light fixtures? I won't turn them on, it's worse.

And then there's this cabinet to no where - complete with electrical outlet. Can't figure out the why.....

The answer is yes, that's a working cabinet with an outlet in it, and no, you can't reach it without putting your life in danger.

And a picture of the top of that back wall in the hallway:

These windows open and let the heat out! (But we have a/c now).

I'll post the city lights view when it gets dark.

Oh well...I was hoping I had found a way to vent!

Sun just went down.