Thanks Kes- I have very rich soil, custom blended by a man with a horse farm. Geranium Roxanne grows about 4 feet tall and almost as wide, all the Nepetas get far larger than they should and become a floppy mess. I don't have good luck with Campanulas like Blue Clips, either blue or white. Something, slugs maybe, eats them all. I can plant some taller plants at the back side along the fence but need anchor plants on the sidewalk sides, especially when the roses aren't blooming.

I don't have much luck with starting seeds but I'll check out the link.

Sharon

I have similar soil, but but a longer growing season. Alyssum , Browallia, Sweet Woodruff, Sweet William, the shorter Monardas and Lady's Mantle have done very well for me. SW and Monarda clump, so they stay in bounds. Alyssum and Browallia will self-seed, while SW and LM grow outwards; SW creeps. SW and Monarda are favorites.

I was going to recommend campanulas because of their overall size. I guess that won't work. What about some of the dwarf daylillies, lil grapette or stella de oro, etc. Smaller sizes & they have a few new colours. Not sure about your colour palette though. Heuchera can also be found in many varieties, some tolerate lots of sun, depending on the type and your soil moisture. The darker leafed ones handle more sun in my garden. Small ornamental grasses can work too, hakone is one I thought of. Clumps take time to grow. Blanket flower (galliarda) is smaller & clump like. Many colours available. Annuals would be easiest to maintain the size of though overall. Many perennials get larger than the tag says even here in zone 5.

That is what I need as well. Most things with the moisture here grow too large. Even my best disease resistant rose begin to have problems when the perennials start laying on them. There are precious few that can survive bitter wet winters, growing seasons that can be flooding or dry as a bone, and can handle the fertilizing of the roses. I have found some but they are work as after two years they grow too large. So ya gotta dig them up and break off a little piece and replant.

Don't know what these photos will look like but they are among the shortest well behave and usually don't look like he!! or at least not for long

1. Nepeta faasssenii are the ones that tend to survive winter and more moisture than most. I have had every one cultivated in the last 20 years. The best of the group is NEPETA PURRSIAN BLUE. It has beautiful heathy darkish blue green foliage. It is in a spot that is way to wet for nepeta but lives on. In my growing season I cut it back once maybe twice. This year it is on its second bloom. The foliage is so pretty I wish that it did not bloom oh well. It is very well behaved.
   
   
   
   
   
2. I'm not sure what my computer is doing but it has decided to intent and number paragraphs. I have tried to figure that out for 5 years. SPOOKY someone tell me how to make it stop.:-)
3. My one and only remaining sedum I had completely given up on finding a short non invasive sedum It is on the right in the photo above. It is SEDUM LIME ZINGER not sure why I decided to try it but I'm so happy that I did. All I need to do is cut it all the way back in spring. I'm used to how wide she will grow in my season. So after cutting back I pull up the out side growth and cut it off. Have had it since 2014. Survives winter, wetness and is better behaved than any others when exposed to fertilizer and water.
   
4. Please excuse no. 4 computer won't cooperate.
5. I have Phlox Forever Pink a short divaricata hybred healthy. Blooms very late spring/early summer. It is currently being spread thru out the yard.
   
   At the end of boom time.
6. The next one is also a div. type blooms mid spring from 3 to 4 weeks. I have almost succeeded in spreading it all along the front and back of the beds. It is one of 3 cultivars. It was the only one to never get powdery mildew so it is the winner the blue tone category. It is scented so the yard smells like heaven. It also carries the yard into rose blooming time. It was breath taking site this spring with it spread everywhere. Plays very well with roses and my environment. Well behaved easy peasy to remove when it gets too wide. It is either Clouds of Perfume, Louisiana Blue or Blue Moon. All I can say is thats it is very healthy. I ripped out the others as soon as they came down with PM for the second time.
   
   
   I don't have a good photo of it darn. When viewed in the yard it appears blue in a photo it's purple.
   

The last photo is of Bobo, Kalimeris Blue Star and a columbine thats a dark purple and reseeds true to type. I love all three of these guys. However I only plant the Kalimeris in front or in back of the beds. Since it need dug and a little piece broken off and replanted every 3 years. She gets monthly hair trims also.

I have a dwarf lady's mantle, alchemilla erythropoda, which is absolutely adorable. It seeds around nicely. Then there are other, shorter geraniums like G. dalmatica, or everybody's favorite veronica 'Georgia Blue'. Gentian septemfida, dwarf siberian iris, creeping phlox . . . there are probably bunches more that I am just forgetting.

Lilies are narrow, don't multiply very fast and give mid to late summer color. Irises multiply faster than lilies, but easy enough to keep to the size you want. Bobo, a small hydrangea perfect for our zone, is 3' tall and wide. Plant it and forget it. Mine is 4 yrs old and still only 2'. There are some short clematis that can be grown on small, narrow obelisks or even used as ground cover. Campanulas are wonderful, but know what you're getting. Some are well behaved little mounds and some taller ones spread like wildfire. I like tall garden phlox, but again, some multiply faster than others. Easy enough to pull out, though.

Thanks all for the suggestions.

Mad- I have a dwarf lady's mantle and it is adorable. I just bought a dwarf astilbe and Siberian Geranium. I'll see how that goes. Does the Veronica get ratty looking in the summer? I bought one, and it took over my yard and turned blackish in the summer heat. I love gentian but hasn't been able to find it around here.

Do any of you grow Stachys Helen Von Stein? If so, good or bad?

Allisum

Alyssum is pretty but it's an annual here.

Georgia Blue is not a typical veronica. It's more like a scaled down geranium or vinca, if that makes any sense? It is one of those undemanding plants that just does its thing, and tends to always look good.

Don't plant lily bulbs without researching red lily beetles. Major pest of true lilies in New England.

My garden doesn't tend towards the small. I like them big and stupid.

I grow and love stachys hummelo. Deep green with purple flowers. It reseeds, but easy to pull out unwanted ones. Reliably comes back better every year.

Sorry, I didn't know about red lily beetles. I'm on the other side of the country.

alyssum is an annual here too but it goes really from April through November . When I pull it out I give it a good hard shake and all those seeds will come back in the spring it's pretty cool . It's a pretty cheap ground cover.

I also do lots of of delphiniums

Stachys Helen von Stein grows here, but it gets really large. I really love it but am hoping I can keep it under control.

Sheila- maybe it would stay smaller here since it's much colder. Do you like the look of it or does it get ratty looking?

Patty, what a LOVELY garden!! Those photos make me want to take a stroll through it!!

Rebecca

Patty-your garden is so pretty. I have Nepeta Blue Purrsian, so far so good. I'll check out the phlox you mentioned too.

Mad-thanks for the update on Georgia Blue. Bluestone has it but they're so expensive but I might just splurge. We do get lily beetles here so I don't grow many lilies. I haven't seen any so far this year. Maybe all the rain drowned them!

Some salvia does really well. The difference between them that I have found is the larger leaf variety, such as May Night can take up much larger spaces than the small leaf varieties. For example, salvia Gregii Furman's Red grows into a small, neat, rounded bright green plant that will bloom late spring to fall. Salvia comes in many colors, all pretty. They can be pruned back like a small shrub if necessary, but they won't sulk about it. Note that I live in a dryer area, New Mexico, than most. Not sure how they would do in a lot of rain. Good luck.

http://www.santarosagardens.com/Veronica-p/ver-geo.htm

they also have Veronica Georgia blue in stock

This has been interesting and why I was afraid to suggest perennials for someone outside my growing conditions. For the record, my soil is poor, rocky, and acidic, although I've worked hard to amend it over the years. We have long, hot, humid summers with occasional droughts, and moderate winters with more rain than snow. I've grown some of these ground covers with far different result. Veronica Georgia Blue was lovely for 2 weeks in the spring but not lovely enough to make up for the fact that it grew like a bad science experiment. I've grown several varieties of salvia greggii and I love it but not with roses. It had a habit of covering the entire bed and everything in its path. Nepeta of any kind is The Devil. I also have to watch supposedly innocuous plants like dahlias, gladiolas (the little perennials, dalenii etc.), crocosmia and even certain lilies, LA hybrids in particular, because they grow larger and divide faster than anyone might expect and soon take over a bed.

Back to annuals- What about nasturtiums? This is one with which I've had marginal success here, but it was almost a brown-thumb survivor elsewhere. They come in a rainbow of colors. Some climb. Some kinds have variegated foliage. Although it covers the ground, it doesn't grow thickly enough to choke out persistent weeds. Also, they don't do well where night low temps are 70 degrees or above and prefer soil that's on the alkaline side- which is why it does so poorly here.

Not sure what size/shape/colour you're looking for. I had Salvias and Catmint but they grew too large and floppy, and so instead for a blueish companion I now use Veronica (the spiked kind, like Royal Candles or Sunny Blue Border). They do multiply but do not get out of control, and can be kept in check by dividing every few years. There are a variety of sizes and colours...I just added a small pink one this year and it is really cute!

I also have geraniums (cranesbills which are perennials, not the annuals). I have Biokovo and Karmina which stay pretty low and the foliage has a wonderful lemony fragrance when touched so the plants are great even when not in flower. They are very tough, can take very light foot traffic (I will step on them once in a while to get deeper into my garden bed), and do well in sun or shade. They do spread slowly but parts can be easily ripped out or divided to keep the spreading under control.

I have the same issue. I like herbs that can be trimmed back at any point. The first is tri-color sage, the second is artemesia. Not sure about your zone though.

PT- I have both of the geraniums you mentioned. They do well here but they do get large in width. I have one that is probably 3 feet wide. I have Veronica Sunny Border Blue and Royal Candles. These have been very wimpy growers for me.

Teka-Artemisia gets very ratty looking here. I wish it did better. I love the color when it's healthy and the frothiness of it. The fringed Bleeding Heart 'King of Hearts' is a similar color and grows well in sun in my area. I have a few of these but they're very hard to find.

Kes- Bad science experiment??? I'm beginning to think that is my WHOLE garden!! So many posters here have such beautiful gardens. Everything looks so well behaved, nothing flops or droops and they seem to have no bugs eating their rose leaves!!! How do they do it?

Enchanted, the Helen von Stein looks pretty good here with a bit of clean up in the Spring. Nothing harder than any perennial. Your size could be smaller in a colder climate.

I found Veronica "Royal Candles" really great here and Alaska. "Georgia Blue" looked so great in England but nothing to look at here and died in Alaska.

I don't know what grows well in zone 5 as I live in 8b Oregon but I seen a pic of lambs ear planted in a row along the ground that looked absolutely neat and perfect. I never really saw the appeal of that plant till I seen that picture and when I end up buying a house will be doing the exact same. Lambs ear looks white and silver and would look stunning next to a white picket fence along the ground but again the plant looks weird as a single and definitely benefits from mass planting.

I just thought of another one, as I was wandering the garden. Look into sea thrift. It only grows maximum 12 inches wide. Nice little flowering clumps. I deadhead to keep blooms going. Comes in a few colours.

There are also some small varieties of alliums that can be quite nice in a mix.

Va Jon- I saw a pic of Helen Von Stein lamb's ear that was planted as a border too and it was gorgeous. This just might be the one that will work best.

Enchantedrosez,

Give these consideration:

Salvia May Night (12-14")

Physostegia Miss Manners (20")

Prunella Loveliness (light lavender color), and Pink Loveliness (both 8-10")

Achillea ptarmica Ballerina (12")

Achillea p. The Pearl (20")

They all have very constrained growth, and don't run at the root.

Moses

Moses- Prunella Loveliness looks perfect. However I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere on-line. No-one even has seeds available. Bluestone has Prunella Freelander Blue and Swallowtail Garden Seeds has seed available. Is this similar?

Enchantedrosez,

I went over to Bluestone Perennials web site to see just what they are offering.

Bluestone, before it got too big for its britches, was a great mail order and go to nursery......but that's another story. I don't live too far from them, and enjoyed summer trips to them as well as order in perennials from them.

Prunella 'Loveliness,' is a paler blue, light lavender, and I believe Loveliness' color carries better than Freelancer Blue will in the garden, but Freelancer is definitely more intense going by the photo. I only grew P. Loveliness and P. Pink Loveliness.

Freelander Blue may be a very different shade of blue in real life than the photo....you know how photo colors are not accurate. All in all, it is certainly worth a try. I believe you cannot go wrong.

Summer Daze looks just like Pink Loveliness to me, going by the photo.

I would get them both, but wait until spring. There's a much better chance of a good take then. I don't like planting new perennials in fall up north. They often rot out and are a waste of money and time.

Prunellas look very much like short snapdragons or double stocks. They bloom their heads off, come back in the spring strong, and spread slowly and stay dense....very easy to manage. Do deadhead them, though. One of my favorite perennials, in the top 20, and most underused perennials in the garden world.

I'll see if f I can refer you to a source of Prunella Pink and Blue Loveliness. Give me a little time, please.

Moses

Thanks so much for all your help Moses. I found a seed source on Etsy for Prunella Grandiflora Pagoda mix, a mixture of lavender, pink and white. I ordered the seeds since they were inexpensive and will try growing some now. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If it doesn't work out I'll order more seeds in the spring.

Bluestone has a nice selection of plants but their prices are so high, especially for the size of the plants. I remember when their prices were far more reasonable. I don't use them much anymore due to this dramatic increase in price.

Sharon

I really like Bluestone. Their plants do very well.

Enchantedrosez,

Bluestone is not the Bluestone of 25 years ago. Sad :•{ Looks like 'moneyhungry-itis,' took over.

Be careful of seed grown strains...there may be quite a range of growth habits, flower size, and abundance of bloom. Worth a try, but expect to cull heavily. On the other hand, you may grow a winner plant like no other. That's the way it is with seed strains.

These are sources I found just now:

Romence Nursery. Prunella Deep Rose gal./$13.99. 888-907-5268.

High Country Gardens. Prunella Bella Blue 2.5" pot/ $7.15. 800-925-9387.

Honey Creek Nursery. Prunella Highlander Blue. Check prices. 309-633-7359.

They all seem to be currently shipping. If not, and fall is their earliest shipping date, I suggest you wait until spring.

I was unable to find P. gr. Loveliness (blue), or Pink Loveliness.

BTW. I believe the true color of Highlander Blue is that refreshing, vibrant, icy blue that P. Loveliness has, and carries very well as the Loveliness does. Bluestone's photo color is inaccurate. I intensely dislike dead colored blue blooms that blend, recede into the foliage, almost disappearing. What you see from a short distance is blue tinged foliage. As you get closer you see that the blue leaves are actually blue flowers. Not what I find attractive, but to each his own.

Also, the foliage of Prunella grandiflora (All the garden cultivars that I know of come out of Prunella grandiflora. There are other Prunella species, looking like watered down versions of P. grandiflora.), is not lacy as some catalog descriptions say. It is moderately, smoothly indented, much like Gaillardia foliage, but shorter in length.

Moses

I have lots of clumps of Dianthus here and there. Pretty steady bloom and lots of colors available. They come back every year - easy to start from seed or you can find them at HD or Lowes. Also the short blanket flowers - I think the Arizona group?

Moses, thank you for all your research and info. The only places I have found the pink and blue loveliness from the UK. Seemingly no-one in the states has these.

Have you ordered from Honey Creek? They have terrible reviews at Dave's Garden watchdog.

High Country isn't shipping until fall. I did a google search of 'Freelander Blue' and most pics are much paler color than the Bluestone Pic.

I'll try the seeds for now and order in the spring if necessary. I'll probably order from Bluestone since even though their prices are high the plants are healthy.

Again thanks so much for all your input.

Sharon

Vinca, does very well here and is trouble free

Enchantedrosez,

I've only ordered from High Country Gardens. The plants were very good quality, small, but their packaging was sloppy. Plants were out of pots, rolling about, but they were mostly tough cacti/succulents, and grew very well once in ground.

Forest Farm Nursery has Prunella Summer Daze and Bella Blue, $7.95_ea. 541-846-7269. They may ship at this time.

I have patronized them a number of times in the past and have found them worthy of future purchases.

Still, I've found no source for the P. Lovelinesses. I got mine from Bluestone many years ago. I'm no longer a perennial gardener, per se, roses and winter hardy cacti/succulents are my focus now. I still am a perennial nut, though, big time.

Reviews on Dave's Garden are to be heeded indeed! Steer clear of nurseries with bad reviews.

Moses

Kristine, what vinca do you plant? I like vinca minor as it doesn't climb, is fairly easy to control (at least compared to the other invasive vines I have) and bulbs can grow through it, but I'm afraid it might strangle my roses. I have two beds on a slope that could really use some sort of groundcover around the roses to keep the soil in place. How close do you let it come to the base?

Can't believe how different plants behave in other climates. My Vinca miner behaves like Kudzu here. Well not quite that badly but once that thing got going it wasn't easy to get out. The roots grew to the size of my wrists. It also staged a take over of my neighbors fence and tried to eat her grape vines. Thats when I started digging it out. Another neighbor really wanted a piece of it. They were warned but they let it escape into the woods where it has consumed a good 3 acres of land last I checked.

Patty, some dianthus are sold as annuals and some as perennials. My dianthus, including Sweet William, come back every year. I believe there are many that are hardy in your Zone. I have 'Dash Crimson', 'Picotee Red', and 'Coconut Surprise;, plus and unknown bright red that was sold as an annual. (Many sold as annuals may actually live through the winter if you don't pull them up.) I also had the "Sunflor" series which are sold as hardy, but didn't make it through the winter. I think they rotted with our crazy weather this spring. I love the colour of your Prunella.

Hardy Begonia is also pretty even when not in flower.

Patty,

Your Prunella photo should be submitted to the mail order nurseries as an outstanding example of it for them to put in their catalogs.

Moses

Thank you Mosses

Patty,

When are you going to take us on a photo garden tour of your garden? What a treat it will be for us!

Moses

I don't grow vinca minor or major here because it is Vining and very invasive I use little Vinca plants and here's some pictures

Patty all my dianthus I grew from seed, I think mostly from Swallowtail. I have the Freelander Prunella I got from them too, mine has stayed in clumps so far, survived the winters the last couple of years. On the lookout for shorter perennials that aren't crazy aggressive, need something to cover the ground and keep the weeds down!

I hear here you. I'm so tired of straw that I could scream. Yet for now it's the only way for me to beat the weeds. Thank you for the seed information I appreciate it.

Canterbury Bells. They grew very well for me in clay soil, surprisingly. I just got some campanula "birch" that looks like it might fit the bill, also.