Can you post pics of the trees, inclduding pots and soil. It will help.

Put the Kishu in half shade half sun for a week as if you are conditioning it for coming inside for the winter. Next up-pot to your new pot and place in shade for 1 week as if you are bringing your tree in. move your tree out into half sun as if you were moving your tree outside after a long stay indoors. Place in full sun. I place my trees on the north side of my house so they get morning and evening sun, but are shaded by my house for the hottest 6 hours of mid day sun.

Wait till after you pick the fruit on the Meyer then do the same but in 2 weeks each stage. Make your own soil. Do not use any bagged mix. Look up 5-1-1 and gritty mix and custom for your weather.

Steve

Graham and Steve,

Thanks for the replies. I'll take some pix when I'm home during daylight hours.

They were potted up in Al's 5-1-1 mix not long after I bought them--I think July or August 2016. They get the "Al" treatment of Foliage Pro @ weekly and occasional bit of white vinegar. I have all my container plants in 5-1-1.

Steve, I'm in S.F. in the fog belt. And I have a very tiny outdoor space. I don't have a range of exposures to move the plants to. It's basically cool and gray almost all the time and we don't have hot sun except very rarely. We did have a big heat spell a few weeks ago but now we're pretty much in normal GRAY mode; range is basically 50F to 65F day in day out.

It will probably be months before the Meyers are ripe--so you think I should wait until then to re-pot? What about for the Kishu? The potting mixes are still draining OK I think, so maybe they have more life left in them than I think. The Kishu looks very healthy. The Meyer needs to leaf out more and seems slow to do that, but as I recall, the same thing happened last year and then they appeared. But I was wondering if there's something going on at root level that's keeping it from getting what it needs, thus I was going to re-pot.

Thanks for the help!

Sheba

OK, here's a link with photos of my citrus trees from August 2016, in case it helps at all. They look pretty much the same but the Meyer has many fewer leaves.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4124804/normal-leaf-color-for-citrus-trees-are-these-ok?n=8

I took some new pictures over the weekend. Still wondering if this is the best time to repot or if I should wait. I'd hate to lose the fruits, but i think the Meyer, esp, could use fresh mix. Here's the Kishu now:

Those pots are big enough. I would leave them both as they are. Wait till next spring. It takes a lot longer to solar acclimate the tree to sun so why not transplant it then.

Steve

Your Meyer does not seem to have a lot of leafs. I probably would check if the roots are okay?

Actually if you have had some experience in repotting trees, and can do it without damaging the tree, then you can repot at any time of the year. I have repotted trees probably every week, if not every day of the year and the trees are just fine.

So my Meyer started looking similar to yours and when I went to re-pot the root system was TINY like your size tree with a large fist size root system, I repotted into a smaller pot and the limbs started dying back. I pruned it down so the canopy was just a bit bigger than the root system and then it flushed a ton of new growth. I think the root system was just too small to grow that large of a tree so it was stalling and slowly declining, once the canopy matched the root system better it took off. So if you do re-pot check the size of the roots and prune the canopy to match. I know you have lemons on your tree but it might be smart to take most of them off so the tree can focus on growing new leaves and supporting itself over giving all its energy to the fruit, potentially not having enough left after resulting in a dying tree. If it were my tree i'd prune it here where the red line is, there aren't many leaves on the part I suggest taking off but it is a huge drain/energy pull on the rest of the tree to keep that part alive. Going into winter the tree is likely to get worse not better and drop more leaves as it will have even less ideal conditions. You can try and root the cuttings. Your bark for your 5-1-1 also looks much too large, I am not sure if that could contribute to the decline of the tree but Al recommends 1/4'' bark for the 5-1-1 mix.

Hi, everyone,

Thank you for your comments and thoughts. Still not sure after all of this what I'll do here. Wanting to clear up a few points of confusion, though, in case that leads to more ideas:

Sammers: The large bark you see in the photos of the Meyer is just a layer of mulch sprinkled on the very top. As I wrote, I just used some pieces of sapwood left over from making the 5-1-1. The Meyer and the Kishu and all my container plants are in 5-1-1; you can see it in the photo of the Kishu. I used GreenAll Microbark, which Al and Josh recommend highly. As for the season, we aren't really "going into winter" here. I live in San Francisco; we don't have weather, we have climate, and winter means temps mostly in the 53-63 range, occasionally/briefly to 45 or so. Summer hasn't been much different most of the time! If I do re-pot and get a look at the roots, if the root ball seems small, I'll take your advice on pruning the top, but I do hope I won't have to sacrifice so much of the tree.

Suzanne, yes, the lack of leaves is qa concern for me. But again, it was a similar situation last year, and then it did leaf out quite a lot. This is one of the reasons I would like to get the plant into some fresh planting mix -- my sense is that the old compacted mix is a problem.

Silica, if I re-pot at this point, do you think I'm likely to lose the fruit? Do you think I should bare root/nearly bare root? I have re-potted several citrus before and many roses, and so far, most everything has done just fine.

Poncirus, given the climate I live in, I'm not sure that I have to worry about solar acclimating--again, we don't have winter, I garden largely in the cool gray fog. We barely have seasons here, especially in my neighborhood. And I guess I wasn't clear--it's not so much that I want to pot UP -- I would maybe keep the trees in their same pots. What I'm concerned about is that the mix is likely compacted now and that the trees aren't able to access nutrients and adequate water. But maybe I'm wrong about this. If I were to re-pot at this point, do you think I'll lose the fruits? Do you think I should bare root or not?

One more question (sorry this is so long!) -- I just realized that my young calamansi is still in the original nursery pot, and I want to get it into 5-1-1. But this evening I saw that it is just starting to flower. Is this an OK time to re-pot?

I'm tempted to leave the Kishu alone for now -- it's looking very good, so I guess right now I'm mostly concerned about the Meyer and maybe the little calamansi. Thanks again for your ideas and any further suggestions.

Sheba

I would check the Meyer lemon tree's roots and repot. Can you post pictures of your calamansi?

Some people on this forum think it is important to bear root a tree at the time of transplanting. If your tree is in a free floating medium that easily falls away such as 5-1-1 you might get away with it. However very frequently, bear rooting a tree's root system can cause a LOT of damage. It is your tree and it is up to you.

I did not bear root my fukushu on C35 because I did not want to disturb the well balanced root system. It is also very hard to spread the root system on a gallon tree or greater. I up potted from a 2.5 gallon to a 4.5 gall.

Steve

It seems to me you are more concerned about the little fruits more than the overall health of the Meyer tree. If the fruits were larger and closer to harvesting then I would understand your concern about losing them. The fruit is taking away needed energy to grow foliage from the tree so maybe removing them would be a good thing. It's your call.

I do not think you HAVE to change the soil in the Meyer now. I say that because I have had my Meyer in the same pot and soil for over 5 years. I know that's not good, but I did not know any better until I joined citrus forums or FB groups. Anyway, I have been upping my fertilizing and the tree is doing great. Because of the lack of foliage on your tree, I do not think you have to worry about being rootbound either. Usually the roots and foliage would be equal in size. I would just purchase a complete fertilizer like Foliage Gro and use a weak dose with every watering because you are going into a slow growing period. The fertilizer will make everything better.

You may want to wet the pot and pull the plant up just to see if it is root bound and then make a decision about repotting. I would do that with any of your plants. Fall is supposed to be the best time for planting. Your temps are constant, some wind, but not much to worry about. I used to live in Sacramento so I understand your weather concerns. I would go ahead and repot the tree even just to straighten it up.

A good rule of thumb is if the tree is more than 2 times the height of the container it should be repotted, or if it has been in the same container for more than a one year.

Sunshine, here's the calamansi. Lots of flowers coming now.

Interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on re-potting. I guess I'll take a look at the Meyer's roots and maybe re-pot. I just have a nagging feeling about it, that it really needs fresh mix.

Silica, good point re the free-floating 5-1-1. I recently re-potted about 12 rose plants of various sizes that had been in 5-1-1 for about 1.5 yrs, and it was so easy to manage! The roots lifted quite cleanly out of the mix -- and not a single plant suffered any sort of visible trauma, die-back, or wilt, and they've been taking off like mad since then in their fresh 5-1-1 mix and larger containers. I was very impressed.

Denise, I have been using Foliage Pro all along, "weakly weekly." And some white vinegar. The Meyer and the Kishu are both in 5-1-1 and treated the same. The Kishu looks great, covered in fruits and a big flush of new leaves is coming now; the Meyer doesn't look so hot. The Meyer was potted up into 5-1-1 in I think July 2016, the Kishu a few months later -- I wonder if those few extra months in the mix are what's making the difference.

Another general question for any of you--so when is supposed to be the RIGHT time/stage to re-pot citrus, especially a Meyer? Here in S.F., Meyers can bear fruit almost year round. So do you re-pot while fruit is ripening, or while flowering? Or doesn't it matter? Do you usually lose fruit when you re-pot?

Sheba

Silica, don't you agree that bare rooting is necessary when repotting into a completely different soil mix?

Sheba I am curious about your fertilizing habits. You mentioned "weakly weekly" of the Foliage Pro. Is this all you use? Citrus are heavy feeders. What is the ratio of the Foliage Pro to water that you use? I use Foliage Pro too, but not exclusively. I use 1 tsp. to 1 gallon of water FP every couple of weeks or so on my trees. I also have been using the Jobes Organic Citrus and Fruit granules monthly. About 1/2 cup per 14" pot. The organic fertilizer is not supposed burn so I let either the rain or hose watering work the fertilizer down to the roots. Because the bagged organic fertilizer does not have the trace minerals, I add Osmocote Plus as well. There are other brands of organic fertilizers that are just as good. It's possible your plants just need more fertilizer. I would try this approach and, if possible, increase the sun.

I was going through some information from Four Winds Growers that they send with their orders. It said that once the tree is potted in the correct sized pot, the tree should not have to be repotted for 2-3 years. There was no mention of refreshing the soil. You just repotted last year so I think you are good unless you lift the plant and see it's root bound already.

The best time to repot would be just before the spring flush of blooms for most growers. Since you are in a moderate climate, the tree will bloom and set fruit year round if it is getting enough sun and fertilizer. If you lose a few fruits, you will get more after the next flush of blossoms.

Let us know your course of action and the results. The information shared may help others.

I am really confused about the bark. I know it is suppose to help with drainage, but will it hurt to leave it in the pot longer than a year? The reason why I ask is because I grow orchids and I have noticed that the bark in the orchid mix does not hold water for very long. A week at the most and only if it soaks for about 30 minutes and then drained. When folks water their citrus, the water drains out fairly quickly, so how does it decompose in a year?

In the 5:1:1 mix, the peat moss hold water in addition to the bark.

When making the 511 mix, the bark is supposed to soak for 24-48 hours before using it. So that tells me that bark doesn't hold very much water when watering plants.

Sammers510 I have been using the Jobes Organic Citrus and Fruit fertilizer for 2 seasons now. Every time I apply it, my trees send out new flushes of foliage within 2 weeks. It seems to work for me. I also have some Epsoma, but have not yet used it since I have 1 bag of the Jobes fertilizer open. Next year I should test the two for comparison purposes.

Denise, I have been trying to hunt down al's repoonce for why/when the bark breaks down and how that negatively effects the tree. I hate searching on GardenWeb, I can never find what I am looking for so hopefully someone who knows can chime in on the detail for that. I would love to not have to change the mix so often. I am glad the Jobes is working out for you, I'll have to look into it and see if others have success with it too. Right now I uses Peters and Osmocote +.

I asked the same question to a friend. Here is his response about Al's reasoning about 511.

"Al suggests replacing the soil for crops like peppers, tomatoes, and annuals like flower arrangements. For more woody plants, he suggests replacing the mix because the plant growth is so strong that one needs to provide new root room and, thus, might as well replace the mix when doing a formal repotting. However, I've worked with both of Al's mixes for years now, and I can assure you that if the container is large enough to allow for more than a season of root growth, then you can certainly push the mix beyond a year. Using the Gritty Mix won't free the grower from root maintenance, either...it's just that 2/3 of the ingredients are inorganic and won't break down as quickly."

Another person's response was: "Bark does not decompose quickly. It contains suberin and lignin, both slow and resist decay." I have no idea what suberin and lignin is.

I found the Jobes at Lowes because I could not find anything else at the time, and the Epsoma at Walmart a year later. I purchased the Epsoma because it was cheaper than Lowes. I compared the ingredients and seemed close to each other. Neither have trace elements so I will use Osmocote Plus and Foliage Pro. I just rotate because I have them all on the shelves and need to use them up.

Suberin resists water penetration and lignin resists decay. Both are in copious quantity in pine/fir bark and together they resist decay a lot more. Other bark also contain the same to lesser/greater extent. Lignin is what hardens the bark/wood and gives it that characteristic brown colour. Brown roots are also lignified and do contain lots of suberin too otherwise they will rot.

Decaying is a very complex process. This is a simplification. Fungus are the first colonizers and start working on woody material (cellulose). After they have done part of the job bacteria move in to finish it off. Since we fertilize the mix regularly with nitrogen it makes the job a bit easier for the bacteria and fungus. Without the nitrogen the decomposition will be a lot slower. In an orchid mix the bark is not wet long enough for either of them to colonize and it does not break down quickly.

Having said all that you can keep the plant for a second year in the 511 mix. I do that for quite a few plants since I do not get the time to change mix for the the gazillion plants I have. I have this mango in the same 511 mix for about 4 yrs, I think, and it definitely needs a full refresh. But it is still growing and producing new leaves. Could have been better.

Thank you tropicofcancer for the explanation. The terminology was unknown to me and you explained it before I had a chance to google it.

Vladimir, barer rooting from a free floating mix such as 5-1-1 is not much of a problem. Repotting from a non floating mix can possibly cause big time root damage. Its up to the grower what the grower wishes to do. I know the 100+ year old Tuscan container citrus trees listed Oscar Tintori book "Ornamental Citrus Plants" are what is called in-container transplanted every 3-4 years (25-30 times in 100 years) and never bear rooted, and they have done well for over a century.

Updating -- I took a look at the Meyer today and ended up re-potting. The roots looked white and healthy, no sign of rot, but the root system didn't seem to be as developed as I would expect (though I'm not an experienced judge of this). They didn't extend very far down into the pot, so I didn't up-pot. Much of the old mix still looked good, but at the bottom, things were somewhat thick and muddy, so the 5-1-1 was breaking down and I think a good time to re-pot.

The tree pretty much bare-rooted itself (yay 5-1-1!). So it's in fresh mix, and we'll see how it does now. One good thing is that I was able to straighten it out in the pot. When I bought it (my first citrus), I didn't know what I was doing, and I didn't realize that it was planted weirdly/askew in the pot, and so when I re-planted it into 5-1-1, I planted it at the same angle. It looked very awkward. Now it looks a lot better. I'll post a picture soon. I'm hoping that I won't lose all of this years lemons, but mostly, I'm hoping it will start leafing out now.

Here's a question: Do you think that being planted rather sideways could have affected the tree's health/growth? Could that be a reason for the sparseness of leaves?

The Kishu and the calamansi really look good. They're both flowering now, and the Kishu has a lot of fruits, some of them of good size. I wonder if any of them will hold on and ripen this year. It's also pushing out a ton of new leaves, so it seems to be a happy tree. I think I'll re-pot the calamansi soon, too, as I didn't do that when I bought it, and I'd rather have all my plants in 5-1-1.

It was a really beautiful sunny weekend here, a great day to spend in the garden getting things cleaned up and ready for fall and winter. Hope all of you and your citrus are doing well.

Sheba

The leaning really should not have made a difference. Mine lean too a bit because I did not have a helper when repotting. The only time it would have made a difference is if the tree leaned so far over that the roots were brought up close to the surface.

Sheba, I am glad you got it re-potted! Hopefully it helps it recover, just don't be alarmed if things get worse before they get better. Re-potting can be a shock to the tree and it might drop leaves/fruit or have branch die back. If your lucky it won't even notice it happened and continue growing as usual. I don't think the leaning is the issue, my observation would be that that small root system is the cause. The roots and the canopy should be similar sized for a healthy tree. if your canopy is 2-3 times larger than your roots is will be hard for the tree to keep up and support itself, at least until its older and more established.

Denise, some of the roots were in fact very near the surface--I had to put mulch over some and remember to keep them moist. When I first planted my new tree, the root ball was a very odd shape. I should have planted it deeper and straight up, now I know! It sure looks better now.

Sammers, well, it sounds as if what you suspected was true with my tree, and that our trees had a lot in common! I'm going to watch and wait for now. If I see any bad signs, I'll consider whacking it back a bit and/or remove the fruits. But I'm hoping for the best now! My experience with re-potting so many roses into 5-1-1 has been amazingly good. Not one of them has had ill effects or shown signs of shock or die-back; instead, lots of them responded within two weeks with flushes of growth and buds. Several of them are growing so fast now in their new mix, I can't believe how much bigger they are now in such a short time--it's been only 4 or 5 weeks. And two roses that have been in their same mix and pots for about 1.5 years, roses that have looked terrible for more than 2 years, which I'd been planning to donate to someone who could put them in the ground, where they'd be happier--well, they look amazing now! From being almost completely defoliated, with few very small pale leaves, they have leafed out very fully and now are budding. They look terrific. So--perhaps my Meyer will have a similar experience?? We will hope!

Sheba

Oops, a question -- how long should I wait after re-potting to fertigate w/Foliage Pro? Or can I begin right away? And the vinegar? I've forgotten. I do have the tree tucked into a somewhat protected space, out of the wind and sun, for the time being.

I just transplanted my Santa Teresa Lemon last week from its nursery container in soil to 5-1-1, so far so good but in my experience the first week looks fine but the 2nd and 3rd is where it shows some stress. I am hoping that it won't bee too bad, we will have to share how both trees handle the transplant! Fingers crossed they both sail through! I have a variegated lemon coming today that I am really worried about since its been in a shipping box for 8 days, so I am worried what its going to look like and if i am going to be able to transplant it to 5-1-1 without killing it. I think the Meyers problem is that its more than willing to sacrifice itself over-fruiting, most trees will drop their fruit when conditions decline but meyers just go into overdrive and try to produce more fruit before they die. Of all my trees the meyer fruits 2x as much and keeps much more of its fruitlets but at the expense of itself. That's why its getting no lemons this year so it can focus on reestablishing itself.

yes lots of trees seem to be really stressed when transplanting but after that they really take off :)

An update to this story. As I wrote, I did re-pot the Meyer and the calamansi in early October. There have been no signs at all of any shock or stress from that. (This is one reason I love 5-1-1!) The plants look now much as they did then--that is, the Meyer still hasn't sent out new leaves; the calamansi has put out new leaves and flowers and has some small fruits. The lemons are yellowing up. I'm guessing that Sammers is probably right about the Meyer and that I should prune away some of the canopy (and get rid of the fruits) so that, hopefully, the tree will put energy into leafing out and growth.

Sheba

As commercial Meyer grower & poster johnmerr oft-posts - if you let a young Meyer bear (too many) fruits when it doesn't self-thin them, then it "forgets to grow", and if you pull off Meyer flowers, "they will just make more", so let any flowers drop on their own and if they fruit, remove/thin the baby fruit.

This has been advice for most young fruiting plants although It seems Meyers are a "textbook case" of really needing that root establishment, being more sensitive than other varieties when it comes to flowering, fruiting, and flushing when immature.

I have seen a number of pics here on this forum of small Meyers holding huge fruits and their canopies are sparse.