I don't know about it, but it seems that Connie Hilker (formerly Hartwood Roses) has it. She'd likely be the best source of information.

Jerri, do you happen to know if Connie Hilker still maintains a website? That might be the best place to start for pictures and description.

Hartwoodroses.com

Hartwoodroses.com > Gardens > Help Me Find Roses doesn't lead to anything about "Crenshaw Musk". At least under that name. So it's like a body has to e-mail and ask them about the plant.

The answer is:

"Crenshaw Musk" is R. Moschata plena. It is in the Hollywood Cemetery, Richmond, VA:
https://www.hollywoodcemetery.org/

Connie said:
"It's been propagated and distributed far and wide. I'm not worried about its location being public. Malcolm tested the various found Musk roses a few years ago, and found that they are all identical."

In that case, Jerri, it likely does not merit a separate entry at HMF. The name could perhaps be added to the list of synonyms.

It has a record already as a synonym for all the other identical double musk roses.

The problem was entering "Crenshaw Musk" when the name is "Crenshaw Double Musk". Had you searched just for "Crenshaw", it would have popped up.

The trail I followed using the link provided here leads to a hyper-linked list in Help Me Find - presumably of roses that are being grown by Hart-wood - that has no entry starting with Crenshaw. I did not search the rest of the site for the plant.

C. Quest-Ritson (2003, Climbing Roses of the World, Timber Press, Portland/Cambridge) says Rosa moschata is a horticultural hybrid or selection of R. brunonii that is "variable in its characteristics", and that "Its many forms need to be sorted out by a botanist with a sense of historical discipline". He also says "Semi-double and double forms have been known since the seventeenth century". And "The semi-double R. brunonii 'Autumnalis' is sometimes attributed to R. moschata" as well. In addition "Several clones of R. brunonii 'Autumnalis' are grown; they vary in many characteristics, including their exact season of flower".

This was a hybrid moschata that I would love to see an illustration of... I don't know that seeing an actual plant is still an option, alas!

vmr, the HRF article only referred to "Crenshaw Musk", and I had no way of knowing about the double aspect. Thank you for that clarification.

Quest-Ritson, bless his heart, has called for a number of projects, such as ( I am trying to remember and paraphrase), DNA testing plus a thorough review of all historical sources--think of how many languages in which those would be found--which no one is ever going to fund. This being a non-political forum, I will refrain from giving my opinion about misuse of vast resources by TPTB.

Again, my thanks to everyone who helped me figure out what "Crenshaw (Double) Musk" is.

The search functions at HMF are not as good as most search engines. If you don't get a hit using the full name, using one word as a key-word can help. As can using alternate spellings of names with more that one spelling... say 'Watters' if 'Waters' doesn't work. Sometimes, I can't pull up a rose using the full name even if it's correctly spelled, and other administrators have had that problem, also, so it isn't just me.

On the search page, have a look at the drop-down menu just after 'Name'. The default is 'best matches', and that usually works. But if it ever doesn't, try using 'contains' to do a key word search. The other two search options are 'starts with' and 'ends with', both of which can be useful, but 'contains' will usually be more useful (except when the search term is a word that will get you too many hits).

I hope this helps,

Virginia

I have found that as well. I'm just tooo lazy to spell out the entire name sometime, so even under the 'best matches' option, I'll just put 'Holmes' instead of 'Sally Holmes', for example, and just choose from there. I've actually found climbing versions of roses I didn't know existed this way, and other interesting roses.

The Crenshaw Musk was among the very first finds of true R. moschata, in the US. John and Marie Butler discovered it on the Crenshaw family plot at Hollywood Cemetery, in Richmond. It still grows there. The problem with double/single musks (R. moschata moschata vs. R. moschata plena) is that they are the same rose with a minor, reversible mutation for doubling. So most so-called "double" plants will eventually throw out a cane of truly single flowers, and if you take cuttings there, you get single plants. So the Crenshaw Double and Crenshaw Single both originated from this original cemetery plant. On very much more rare occasions (I'm only aware of two times, ever), the double form may sport to the extremely doubled form 'Temple' musk, which was also found in that cemetery, but growing in the Temple family plot, rather distant from the Crenshaw plot. So we don't really know the source of that plant, originally, nor if/how it may be historically related to the Crenshaw plot plant.

As for the concept of R. moschata being a brunonii hybrid -- that's an interesting concept, but I have no particular reason to believe it, and I don't think it is backed up by any DNA (or other) testing. It may or may not have validity.

Okay, I have added "Crenshaw Musk" as a synonym for R. moschata. I only knew of the double form because it is sold as such by Rose Petals Nursery.

Virginia

Well, Dr. Manners, Mr. Quest-Ritson has the remedy. From Climbing Roses of the World, p 45, I quote, "We keenly need an international trial of cultivars from gardens and nurserymen across backed by chromosome analysis and a re-evaluation of all the historical sources." Is your university up for financing that? No? Neither is anyone else, so far as I can tell.

Hmmm... I agree that it might be a nice thing, and yield interesting results, but "keenly need"? That's a bit strong.

Food, water, shelter, like-minded friends, access to books and plants are things I keenly need. Oh, and coffee...

VMR I see what you're saying, but I don't know that I'd say "synonym" so much as "single selection site typical example of..." It describes the clonal offspring of that specific plant, which, it is true, appears to be absolutely typical of the group. In the same sense, there are "Graham Thomas's Musk," "Gate Tayloe Musk," "Tayloe Musk," "Bremo Musk," "Burwell School Musk," "Burwell Plot (Elmwood Cemetery) Musk," etc. -- All are identical, but we've tried to keep the provenance records for each.