astro777:

Please. I am not in the sink business; I'm in the fashion business.

Everyone's got a sink; everyone's got a roof. Do you want to look mahvelous or feel mahvelous?

If you have recurring gunk at your undermounted sink, it's leaking. If you can slip a steak knife between your sink and the stone bottom, or if the knife comes out wet, your sink is leaking. If you can press on your sink divider and pump water from the flange, it's leaking. If it's leaking and your top is reinforced with steel rodding, you're flirting with catastrophic top failure. Gunk sinks have to be reinstalled and waterproofed. Why not replace while you're at it?

This sink was installed with the notorious wood-blocks-spanning-the-sink-flange/stone bottom with polyester method. Mr. Gravity will not have it. I promise that sink was comin' down.

Michelle:

I think it's a Kohler too, but I'm not positive. She bought it at Ferguson's.

Notice the failing finish on the top of the cabinet doors? Yeah, that's from a conventional sink installation, not an apron front sink. Aprons may dribble water, but certainly not any more than any other.

Thanks Joe - absolutely love her choices (in sink, faucet, and contractor/fashion business dude ;-) ) Off to the Ferguson website to find it.

ETA - Kohler Tournant K77515 https://www.fergusonshowrooms.com/product/Kohler-K77515-Vibrant-Stainless-1034471?Ns=AvailabilitySort%7C0%7C%7CPrimary_Finish%7C1%7C%7CSort_Order%7C1&N=103+219+55+3000860+3000356+165

This sink was installed with the notorious wood-blocks-spanning-the-sink-flange/stone bottom with polyester method.

Care to explain better?

Here's a picture of it.

Instead of drilling the top and inserting clips or strapping the sink mechanically, some fabricators mistakenly believe that gluing a block bridging the sink flange and stone bottom will hold a sink in place. It won't.

I think every sink should have a faucet deck like that. Weird that they just stopped making (most of) them that way. It will always be practical.

Swanky-licious Joe!

total update and transformation! Probably made them love their kitchen again!

It looks really nice.

I know lots people with undermount sinks. Are sink failures common?

No, they fail due to poor installation. You only need to silicone them on and use something like megapoxy to set the corners while the silicone dries

astro777:

Sink failures are common and rampant. I rehang nearly one a week.

"No, they fail due to poor installation."

True.

"You only need to silicone them on and use something like megapoxy to set the corners while the silicone dries"

False.

Undermounted sinks must be mechanically fastened unless they are designed specifically for an adhesive bond like a Corian sink or a Karran Edge series. While silicone does have adhesive properties, its function at a sink is one of a gasket.

A double bowl sink with only the corners fastened has no support in the center from the sink itself, is quite flexible, and will fail. Guaranteed. I see it constantly.

The real danger from a leaking sink is reinforcement rod failure which can split the stone.

@Stone Care dude, I dunno if you're trying to sell your services, but being this unpleasant is surely not going to get you anywhere.

I have to agree with Lisa 902. Quartz - Stone Care all your posts have been shall we say unpleasant and not helpful. Frankly, I'll take Joseph's advice over yours any day.

You have to hand it to Joseph, he answers this QSCCRE guy with lots of grace.

I think someone needs to read How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie- before it's too late.

Rita our point is that if you don't know the correct information or think you do, just check it and then there is no incorrect information.

That is all we are trying to do, educated the myths, wives tales etc that some have picked up. We all do it at some stage take a hear say advice.

But it does have consequences if you are wrong, we are just trying to save the heartache from end users.

QSCCRE:

Where did I say to mechanically fasten sinks to stone?

Where? Anywhere? No. I never did. Had you comprehended the material you read, you would have known that.

Many engineered stone manufacturers prohibit mechanical attachments of any kind (page 22), however, that does not mean sinks cannot be mechanically fastened.

A Hercules Universal Sink Harness or a Sink Strap will mechanically fasten sinks to the cabinet sides, not the bottom of the top and turn one of the weakest areas of a top into one of the strongest.

P.S.:

Q, notice how I linked to things? That is known as "substantiating what you say". It builds credibility and readers are impressed. Name calling not so much. Try it, please.

QSCCRE:

You aren't going to believe this, but an Australian Caesarstone fabricator, Form Rite, has made a video showing their violating Caesarstone's sink installation instructions by inserting mechanical clips into the bottom of the top. @5:00 or so.

I am curious about this "sprouting" business. That's twice now Joe has been accused of sprouting off. I guess he doesn't spout off because he's not a sink guy?

Joseph Corlett, LLC It's actually a caesarstone video...Formrite we do some repair work for as they supply the larger retailers the ready to go cabinets and tops etc... They are cabinet makers .... But your information show Caesarstone again are hypocritical on their own information . You are right on this point... at 5.11 of Caesarstone.s own video they show this.

Valid point though... you could agree that they endorse this until you look at the below

This screen shot is from page 102 and on 103 you will see any sealing will also void the warranty. These are straight from the Fabrication and Installation Guide for Caesarstone.

Caesarstone warranty voids this as well as your fabrication guidelines.

My point is that Caesarstone will say one thing and then have in something else that says NOT to do it!

This leads to Total Kaos and confusion as you have pointed out Joseph and why the information is not always correct on your side, as the one point of the information or what they are showing.

So you may not be incorrect, but why some of the information you are saying is incorrect and why you think it is correct. Which is valid... but also incorrect as it will void the warranty

It voids the warranty at the end of the day..

I'm no expert, but the idea of silicone alone holding up a big sink full of water for years seems crazy to me. I would think there would be some sort of mechanical attachment (to cabinet or counter).

Maybe drop ins are more logical!

My suggestion is to silicone a sink on to an piece of quartz, clamp it down as you would normally, Then try and remove the sink... It is almost impossible without destroying the sink.

Silicone even at say 1/4mm thickness still has a shear strength of 200 lb/in2

Following

I repair sinks that have been adhered in place with silicone and polyester bridging the sink flange and stone bottom constantly. Twice a week lately. It does not work; it is a recipe for failure I promise. Sinks must be mechanically fastened. End of story.

stillpitpat:

I'm not sure I understand your statement. I believe I am a "sink guy".

Back when everyone asked the kids "What do you want to be when you grow up?" and others answered "fireman" or "trucker", I didn't say "sink guy". It's just that fabrication, installation, and repairs don't pay as much as sink replacements. I earn established lawyer rates for fixing the poor work of fabricators and sink manufacturers and my clients are very happy.

I'm gonna ride this career horse for another three years or so, until I'm 65, then I'm gonna get a job as a writer. Or a bra fitter at Nordstroms.

Joseph, most of us appreciate your time, advice, and courteous responses. And humor.

QSCCRE:

It only voids the warranty if you drill the estone like the Aussies in the video. Strapping sinks to cabinet sides, as I've advocated here for years, does no such thing. Please, comprehend the posts to which you are responding.

Big straps if the sink is in the middle of the cabinet... and not practical...

QSCCRE:

The Kohler in this post is held in place with two Sink Straps, one in front of and one behind the drain. Perhaps I should make a video of me jumping up and down in the sink and it not budging. That's not happening with a sink adhered in place; I'll boot it out in one stomp.

I was taking your statement "I am not in the sink business" literally. I just reread, and oops! I guess I took it literally b/c I think of you as a countertop guy more than a sink guy, but that's not what you meant anyway. lol.
Really, I was just amused by the idea of "sprouting off." Once is a typo, but twice is just funny. And it makes me picture someone sprouting. I wonder what that would look like.

I was also making the point that you don't "spout" (no R) off.

You have to hand it to Joseph, he answers this QSCCRE guy with lots of grace.

Having had the pleasure of meeting Joseph, I will say he's a class act.

Reading this thread, and the old phrase "at ease disease, there is a fungus among us" keeps coming to mind. :-)

Great job on the sink - I like that faucet deck.

"I was also making the point that you don't "spout" (no R) off."

stillpitpat:

Thanks, but I'm sure my wife disagrees.

Joseph, really appreciate all the great information you've provided over the years. Would you recommend a sink strap for a new undermount installation? I was originally going to build 2x4 supports with legs on the sides or bottom inside of the cabinet. The sink would basically rest on this platform and not rely on the cabinet strength. Sink strap seems like less work though. I'm installing 36" whitehaven inside a 36" apron ready sink cab. This sink is really heavy...

cat:

i'm always retrofitting; it doesn't appear you are if you've got the luxury of picking a cabinet designed to accommodate your sink. A properly sized cabinet should hold that sink without additional supports.

Thanks a ton, appreciate that. Looks like I will be using the sink strap method. I had an old outdated kitchen that came with the home we purchased. Long story short, I ended up gutting the whole space to build a kitchen from the ground up the way I wanted it. I am a fan of "overbuilding" when it comes to my own home.

This sink was held on with several blobs of epoxy on squares of quartz blocks....until it wasn't. No installer will do this at my house again!

Oh wow. Was that a recent install?

Yikes!

Chess, I think this was done about 10 years ago, maybe less. We are in a rental house while we build so I'm not sure of the history. The large bowl was filled with water when suddenly it gave way. The garbage disposer kept it from falling further.

I have followed Joe's posts for years about mounting sinks on stone countertops - never thought I'd be one who learned the hard way!

Any sink with a divider can't be secured with corner blocks/clips only. Unlike a single bowl, the middle of the sink is steel on the flat and quite flexible. When a divided sink is strapped, it doesn't flex. It can't.

Well Kohler, here we go again. That big 'ole swoop on the left side will not allow the installation of a 3943 since it has no faucet flange.

I've had a faucet flange welded on again, although this time my metal fabricator ripped off your 1" flange at the bend and welded on a 4 1/4" faucet deck with stainless stanchions for support. You really need to start making this sink.

It's a lot easier to just cut these jokers out the top, especially when I don't have the wrench for that faucet. Lookit that brown nasty leaking sink flange gunk.

Why I HATE sink clips. All four of them. Nasty.

Another reason to hate sink clips. When I cut for the new opening, I've bisected the reinforcement rod on the left and the sink clip embedding polyester on the right. I gotta fix both:

The cabinet front is removed and the Sink Straps are installed. The sink gets clamped to the level through the drain hole until the cabinet front can slip under the apron.

This is how much mess this job really makes. Not too bad.

Yeah, that's a Kohler faucet too. Wake up you guys. This is new market; you're not cannablilzing anything.

Kohler, this is what I'm talkin' about. You put that face on the momma, and it's game over.

Until Kohler makes a sink with that deck, you'll just have to patent that "Joe, you're a superstar!" expression for yourself.

Dear Kohler:

I'm probably getting to be a pest, but there is just so much wrong with your Whitehaven short apron sink installation video. I don't like the recommended 2x4 blocking to support the sink; it may shrink and cause a leak, unlike a Pete's Sink Mount kit. Stainless steel doesn't shrink and unlike fixed blocking, it's adjustable even after installation.

My biggest problem with your video is that it implies that you must install the sink before the countertop. Nonsense. You guys are cheating yourselves out of a boatload of retrofit business. Here's how it's done:

Yeah, someone else lowered the bar top and made the seam an epoxy feature, but I digress.

This is the crucial measurement. Deducting for the amount of top overhanging the face of the cabinets, in this case about an inch and a half (screwdriver tip), if the remaining dimension to the sink cut out exceeds around 19", no Whitehaven for you. You can't weld a faucet flange onto enameled cast iron.

If you're lucky enough to have pocket screws fastening your cabinet face frame on, you can probably get out of smacking the face frame off. You'll have to trim the top inside edge of the cabinet to let the sink flange pass, but that's covered by the apron anyway, so hack away.

A spray paint can bottom makes a perfect template for tracing the sink radius to the top. The long cuts are nearly dust free with a Festool rail saw, but you've got to chew and freehand with a grinder to get the curves. Expect a little dust.

The reinforcing rod in front must be ground back and the slots filled. I found a few other spots. The blue tape marks make the faucet hole plugs get adhered at the same place they were fitted.
When a fabricator mistakenly drills a faucet hole in a new top, this is probably an unacceptable repair. When I fill the holes you already had, this is completely acceptable. Funny how that works. Remember, you're bending way over the sink to get this view. Standing at the sink, you can't see 'em.

Unless you like lying on your back inside a dark cabinet, install the faucet and soap dispenser before the sink, please.

I can't say enough good about Pete's Sink Mount Kit; I don't know how you're going to do this job without it. Dial it down, plop the 80lb. sink on top of the mounts, reattach the cabinet front, silicone the flange (clear, not white), dial the sink up with a screwdriver, Windex off the squeeze out, and pack up your tools. You're done.

Oh, and get the final check. You may get a hug from your homeowner; I did.

Dear Kohler:

I thought you may like to see what your Strive K5283 looks like retrofitted. With its gently rounded corners and included accessories, this is dang nice sink. And yes, just like you say in your instructions, the 36" cabinet had to be altered a bit to accommodate the sink flange. But who cares? The little bit of cabinet I removed is being replaced with 9" of stainless steel, because I harnessed this baby in place.

Can you believe that front rail granite? It's only 2 3/8" wide! You can do that when you don't need room for clips which you don't when you strap a sink in place. Actually it's that narrow because I'm too lazy to pull the faucets and cut in the rear if I don't have to and I didn't. She lost her tip-out drawer but has no regrets. Fashion, practicality, and speed; I love it.

P.S.:

I just had another K3943 delivered yesterday and I'm taking it to the fab shop on Monday to have the faucet deck welded on. That's three in four months from one guy in one city; imagine what your marketing department could do. Obviously the demand is there. I'll keep you posted.

Well Kohler, here we go again, fourth sink with the welded faucet deck in nearly as many months. I've got the 5th almost ready as a rod repair, but he's still in price denial. When are you going to start making this sink?

That's a Kraus faucet.

I had to fill the bisected sink stud slots. Maybe two colors of adhesive next time. On the other hand, you can't see these standing at the sink. No one ever gets this view but the cleaning lady.

Aren't these the greatest light fixtures? You can see how well they work in the first two pictures. She said she got them on Houzz. I digress.