Just my opinion but don't prune it!..let it grow!..it might not be an issue..maybe I'm old fashioned but I don't like the modern mindset where everyone cuts everything every year..so called "landscapers" convince people it's "time to prune"..I don't buy it..

NW -

Not pruning to shorten. More like round 2 of rejuvenation pruning. I ended up doing it. It was a sacrifice cut ya know. Sacrifice one wood with a couple of flowering buds. In return, I get 2 new shoots that are in the same spot. I went back, looked at the 2 new growth and then the one cane that was right next to it and the line of sight of where I knew leaves would just not the allow the new growth go vertical to it's full potential......Hopefully the slugs won't get to it.

These are a few huge Macro's I'm considering rip/replacing, so it's not a loss leader....My goal is to actually get new growth and eliminate old so the course of the boat is still in-line. Actually, on this one particular one, I've got at least 15 new shoots coming up. Hopefully, they will all sprout high, won't topple in 2018 snow and this gives me another chance to cut some more canes I want to get rid of. Some of these canes we speak are are not even being cut with a pruner, but my Silky saw...(they are that big).

a1an..I hope you get the results you're going for..hard for me to decide if I would cut it without a pic..but in general most people prune too severely for my taste..

Rejuvenation pruning IS somewhat severe.......but very necessary to reinvigorate an old and overgrown mac. It is the removal of the largest, oldest canes - often still quite viable - that encourages the growth of new basal stems. And since it is done over a 3 year time frame, it seldom looks like you've taken off too much at once.

Nichols, in your climate, it is unlikely a mac would achieve the size and collection of gnarly old interior growth that they can do in warmer climates. So it is completely reasonable you question the need for such a practice :) But I see huge old macs all the time around here that folks cut back to keep size in check (and sacrificing a big chunk of bloom) when they really should be doing exactly what alan is!!

alan, I think you did the right thing by removing but would love to see photos.....any chance?

I feel big old Macs are iffy anyway you go... either you get a few early blooms and maybe some in Sept. again if we have a mild winter and a warm spring everything will BE OK.....then again we just had 37”of snow last wk( 12+25)

Will try to grab some GG. As I was taking the lil ones out for a scooter ride, I've started paying attention to people's shrubs this time of the year. I saw so many hydra shrubs, everything from 2 feet to 4/5 feet. What was interesting though, was that it was it was as if they were all using the same landscaper - the entire tops were lopped off even and there was like a zillion (literally) sticks in the shrub. I can't image all that is livingwood. There is a certain balance between keeping it bountiful yet still allow light to get in the center to get new growth...

This cut today was a tough call. I have already done most of my major culling cuts 2 weeks ago. The hardest parts had me on my knees interweaving between canes and sawing out some larger canes, sawing out what I think is just maybe a overgrown cane that went horizontal, rooted to the floor and got big, fat, woody and taking up space so nothing can grow in the areas where it was just this large woody mass. It was literally a mass that was about 4" + wide. I actually thought it was root flares last year . More careful eyeing this year concluded it was not a root but just pure wood.

I'm sorta surprised I've got that ~many~ shoots coming out this spring. I'm not sure if it was due to last years 1st rejuvenative cuts + then in winter, I gave it a nice nap with compost and mulch. When I pulled the mulch back, saw plenty of new shoots. After the initial early pruning this month, it's as if I doubled the amount of surprise shoots I got already, 2 weeks later today.

If these new shoots grow and are able to make it though next year this time, then it just boils down to the last remaining trunkish canes where some laterals coming off of it, that I just can't cut right now, as the laterals make up a good majority of the exterior framework

I cut much harder this year than last year. After seeing the new shoots this year, it's made me a slight believer that new growth can happen - with some persuasive cuts..

I'd just have to confirm, alan, that rejuvenation pruning works........that's exactly why you got all those new basal shoots!! They wouldn't have appeared without it.

I would not worry about the leaves not getting their share of the sun. There are many times when hydrangeas develop new growth and where the new growth will be shielded somewhat from the sun by foliage from other older stems. It happens when rejuvenating aaand when not pruning at all. It turns out not to be a big deal as (1) wind moves the leaves around and lets some sun peek 'in', (2) the leaves tend to alternate their growth... so the leaves above/below a pair of leaves develop 90-degrees off... this allows some sun to reach the bottom of the stems now and then and (3) leaves still get some indirect bright light; so in sum, the inner and crowded leaves still get some sun. It is just that the older and larger ones will produce more food (via photosynthesis) than the new smaller leaves.

I was removing winter protection recently and noticed new growth around several stems. I bet the older siblings will crowd them out at first but the new growth should still make it on its own. So, do not worry; and enjoy the bloomage.

Your analogy makes sense LPR, however, for example, last year, there was one new growth I spied between a quadrant of old canes. When I was doing final fall prep, said new growth did not grow vertical, and more of less grew at at 45 degree angle. I suppose it just went in the direction of closest light. Needless to say, the stem was not very strong and it did not survive the winter.

a1an - your hesitation to prune these canes is because they already have buds for the spring? How about pruning those canes at the end of summer, after the later bloom starts to fade but before new buds are formed? I think that's generally when they suggest pruning mac's anyway.

Actually the rejuvenation pruning method that alan describes is done before the plant leafs out - in late winter or early spring while still mostly dormant. That is what will encourage the basal breaking during the growing season.

In milder winter climates, macs will produce buds quite early in winter - mine were all showing buds at Christmas. But the practice of rejuvenation pruning ignores whatever buds may be on those older canes being removed. The point is to remove them to encourage the new, vigorous cane growth that will replace them.

GG. These new growths we speak of - is it from last years hard pruning and they ~overwintered~ and decided to sprout during winter? Or a combo of that and ~extra~ new shoots I spied from the hard pruning I did 2 weeks ago ? I'm a believer. New shoots observed when unmulched. Round 2 hard pruning this year and it seems like the shoots have doubled since then . I was really under the impression that it was ~old and tired~, and it did not want to send off as many as I'm seeing.

Last year, I did cut as hard as I did this year. I just did some very selective ones as I was concerned about new shoots not growing back to replace. Then again, it's hard to discern if new shoots did grow last year as by that time, it was leafed out in full blown summer.

I cut back 3 canes yesterday : in reference to this post, as I wanted these new ones to have as much potential as I could give them, These 3 canes either had new shoots directly next to it or it was in it's LOS (line of sight).

The large masses of wood we speak of, I thought it was dead but it was not. Even went as far as sawing it, and it would not budge. Then I took out the needlenose pliers ! (yes, out came out the hand tools) and I tried to peel off the part I sawed with no success. I considered a pry bar to wedge my cut but I'm going to let Dwarnisim take over and let mother nature decides it's fate. I'm going to see if it dried out and if I'll be able to peel some off in 2019 I suppose.

I cut my dead mac stems to the ground after it's obvious they won't leaf out..usually after I see new shoots at the base..sometimes my neighbor's slow to cut her dead off and the new stems are nearly as tall as the dead ones..so it seems new shoots come whether or not you prune..I guess you could say in a cold climate the shrub rejuvenate prunes with or without human help?..or if the old shoot IS alive you get multiple new instead of one old?..I need pics to help visualize..

It is very difficult to explain this to someone who attempts to grow macs in a cold climate or focuses only on the reblooming types :-) You just will never see the massive amount of woody stems a mature mac can produce over the years and I couldn't even find any decent photos to illustrate. There is a big difference from the complete die back to the roots growth or the annual shoot growth of the rebloomers and what happens with rejuvenation pruning. The old canes removed with rejuvenation pruning can be actually thick woody trunks - several inches in diameter. It is of benefit to the growth and health of the plant to remove them over a period of time.

An example of a sacrificial cut in the 1st pic.

I should count how many new shoots I have as well - heh, maybe there is more yet to be sprouted . The last pic should observe the shoots I'm seeing. And this is only from one angle. In this one pic alone 20+ new shoots. which I definitely did not observe new shoots like this last year (I sorta let of these get neglected the last coulplenof years) - with kids and all the new things that come with that but maybe these new ones are from year 1 of hard cutting, and this years hard cutting will develop for 2019....

Per your last post GG, are you saying rebloomers have less hardiness (die back) and the do more new growth ? Not to confuse the original topic at hand .

In the other new thread on cane thickness, you can see the 5 rebloomers I have - as I was not sure if non rebloomers were going to stay in my garden....

I'm not sure how to answer that :-) IME, the reblooming types perform just the same as the old wood bloomers. But then I am not in a climate that experiences any sort of winter dieback on hydrangeas. And I have not had any of the rebloomers long enough for them to develop those massive trunks. But clients that do have a couple of massive big plants of ES treat them the same as they would any other old wood flowering mac, periodically pruning out the larger, older canes.

I think the generation of new growth on the rebloomers (what will tend to produce flowers for them) is triggered more by cold temperatures and normal winter dieback........if that is missing - as it is in my climate, that new growth from the base is not typical and only comes if you do the rejuvenation pruning. But that growth will be permanent, not just seasonal, and will eventually increase in size to the point where it too will need to be removed.

For some strange reason, a new subject thread doesn't seem to show but I'll link it direct in this one

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5200721/relationship-of-cane-thickness-old-young-macro

I'll try to get a pic of the Bloomstruck. It's the oddest Hydra in the bunch. We're talking sideshoots that are less than are 1/8 thick OR LESS and it has boatload of little red buds that I won't even call buds but slivers. They are about the size of a long grain rice. Supposedly in my readings, the bloomstruck has smaller blooms but blooms profusely

thanks for the pics..my mac canes are thinner and less crowded..I realized that what you're doing with macs I've done with Annabelles (arborescens)..I know that some people cut their Annabelles to the ground but I want the height for screening and the older stems aren't as floppy..so I cut just what's necessary..dead, broken or crooked stems to give the branching a better look..

NW - the pics were just to show the new growth. The older canes are thicker than the main stems of my tree formed Limelights !

they are thick..I see the red buds..I might have pruned some of those..

NW. I pruned as much as I would ~prefer~ already. With the new shoots, I just look at the shrub from a step back, sort of decide from that perspective if I need to some more drastic sacrificial pruning to allow new growth/sun/space. I've opened the canopy more that I would aesthetically would prefer on these already

I AGREE..my comment sounds wrong - as if I'm telling you to cut MORE..that's not what I intended..what I meant was I might have cut some stems too (as you did) even though I normally advocate no pruning..

Paging GG. Just wanted to say THANK YOU. I think it was you who led me onto the rabbit hole path of the 3 year pruning, eh, maybe it might be a 4 year for me....last year, when I said I have some older macro's that have no room for growth at it's base.

I'm not ready to pull a Hyed and pull these old ones out. Hopefully the newer canes will be able to give these old girls a chance.

I know it won't be a complete recovery but hopefully it will invigorate it. Not in the recent pics, but there is some areas where it's like 3 Trunks Stacked together, one cut with a small stump, and the other 2 has 2 laterals coming off the trunk stub that forms a large area that I can't cut unless new growth fills this spot.

Final selective pruning session for 2018 ? On these old macs, I would say about 85% of canes have leafed out in whole (leaves along the entire of the cane). I have some stragglers though. Some are showing a leaf on the lower part on the stem. Some showing none. All green inside. I suppose some may be affected by my hard cutting including the hard cutting with the sugi saw this year....

I don't want to do any more rejuv. pruning at all right now. However, with that statement said, would we concur these stragglers are weaker or should I just go Edward Scissorhands and cut them to the base.

GG. In retrospect, I could have/ should have gone all-in and culled out some more bigger trunks. Some of the new growth has gone gangbusters and is about half the height of the shrub filling in quite nicely.

I knew once it leafed out, it would not look too shabby, but when I did the the rounds of cuttings later winter/early spring, it was looking pretty dang sparse and I felt like I maxed out how much I should have pruned out and still have it look like a shrub

Eh, there is always next year.

Actually, the "culling" is best done over a period of time, typically 3 years, taking one third of the oldest, woodiest canes out at the beginning of each season. Taking too much off at one time can shock the plant and chances are if you were more ruthless in your removal, the plant would not have responded in the same vigorous manner it has now :-)

This is a technique called "rejuvenation pruning" and is a common practice for any large, well-established caning shrub.

I'm on year 2 of rejuv. I probably went a bit too easy last year ? Def. cut much harder this year and PooF, boatload of new growth when I pulled the mulch back this winter, and the new growth seems to exploded post round 2 of cutting back hard to the base late winter - if you recall the details, I even took out the Sugi saw and went to town ;-0

Heh Kaileen. I'm ~trying~ to get old macs to do just that !

All my new ones planted are in bloom/leaf ratio similar to yours. Eh, the old mac's right now don't exhibit a single broccoli yet. Lotsa' leaves though, if you're into leaves ;-0

I wouldn't care about ugly trunks when you get those blooms!!..the color is amazing!!..beautiful the entire season..I'm jealous of your zone..

a1an..some of mine barely have leaves..

My macs are only showing a little right now. Wait another month and they’ll be starting to bloom.

I can just slightly cry today .

The wifey has no idea on the madness if not impeccable time I have spent undertaken on rejuvenation pruning. I literally have been on my hands and knees doing selecting pruning down to to base, and just keeping as minimal old wood as I can so there is a balance to it. Weaving a Suji saw in between canes just to do selective ~sawing~. I've had my body in all sorts of weird angles getting the saw to do selective sawing without harming old canes or new tender growth from base. Surgical precision I'd like to think. Not fun !

Apparently the old shrubs were not round and uniform for her and it was a bit too much of a layered look ....so she went to town pruning it even and even taking out some of the much needed new growth leaving short stubs. I thought women were all about the layered haircut. I guess I was wrong on that assumption

Ehh. I'm not so much miffed about what's been leveled at the top

It's just all the new growth I've worked so dang hard to make happen - and finally this year, KaBoom. It exploded in new growth - only to have quite a few on the outer perimeter decimated to 6 inch high stems.

GW forum filters or something does want seem to put the recent post update/thread being shown so I figuered I'd link it in this thead. Round 3 occured this year

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5658290/i-went-edward-scissorhands-today