I wouldn't complicate it too much. Roses arent that picky. My only suggestion is that your mix sounds a bit too water retentive. I'd probably add something like perlite if you want to go your route. No clay or pebbles in the bottom though.....just drainage holes. If I were doing it, would probably just make a 511 mix and call it good.

Oh, BenT - your flowers are gorgeous!!! So many colors!! I love it!

On the container forum...where they suggest 5:1:1...and some recommend Foliage Pro with 9-3-6 (has calcium and magnesium). I'm not experienced enough to know if that is the best...but I think I'm going to try it. :)

Carol

I agree with BenT that roses do better with a more moisture-retaining potting mix (not 5-1-1), especially Austins which are thirsty plants. Get the good stuff and there's no need to improve it any further. I've used Promix and Espoma with good results.

(The Container Forum is dominated by a group of 5-1-1 enthusiasts -- with a cult-like devotion to this mix. It does not work for every climate and every plant, so take it with a grain of salt.)

During the summer be prepared to water them every day (mornings are better, and water the mix only, don't get the roses wet). For fertilizer I recommend Dyna Gro liquid fertilizers like Grow, and once in a while Bloom. I get them on Amazon. Even if your potting mix comes with fertilizer, frequent watering will wash it out, so be prepared to fertilize often but at low concentration ("weekly weakly").

I love container roses because they just keep on blooming! Here's DA Sister Elizabeth last August, when all my in-ground roses were semi-dormant, taking a break in the heat:

I'm growing a Kordes Fiji rose in Miracle gro moisture control potting mix this year...

"....with a cult-like devotion to this mix." 5-1-1 is only a starting point. You are correct, not for every plant in every climate. The science behind it really can't be argued though, and easy adjustments can be made to it to suit almost any plant in any climate. ie: if roses like more moisture retention, it's easy to adjust the mix to exactly what you need for water retention. Do bag mixes work?....absolutely. Just don't be unfair by lumping 511 enthusiasts into a cult. You are way off base on that one. Use a soil that works for you, very simple.

Edweather, you just confirmed what I said :)

Well, I've planted all of my new roses in 5-1-1...so I'm hoping I didn't waste my money. I guess we'll see. I'm hoping that because I live in a mild climate, that the 5-1-1 will be good here. Mine also has zoolite...which, I think, is supposed to help retain moisture.

Carol

@Festiva, I confirmed what you said, by saying use a soil that works for you. Alrightee then :-/ hahaha lol.

@rose, You should be good in your climate. Even if the mix drains too well, it will break down a bit over time and become more water retentive.

Thanks, edweather! I'm so excited for the coming rose season!!!

Carol

Can someone explain how to make the 5-1-1 mix? I'm also thinking about growing roses in containers this year.

I think that BenT is probably right as he echos Straw's thoughts that fluffy soil is the best type of soil for potted roses.

I haven't had any experience with 5-1-1 mix...so I don't want to steer you wrong with my experimentation.

But it's

5 parts pine bark (of a certain size...less than or equal to 1/2"

1 part perlite

1 part sphagnum peat moss.

Carol

I really like 5-1-1 and grow all my house and office plants either in it and in gritty mix and I love both mixes for that purpose. HOWEVER... I grow all my roses (15) in containers, and after a mediocre performance in 5-1-1 last year, I replaced all my roses' soil with Miracle Gro Rose soil. They are all doing MUCH better.

I grow my roses in 15-gallon grow bags due to better drainage, temperature properties, and because it encourages "air pruning" of the roots which in turn prevents the plants from becoming pot bound. There are scientific studies (one specifically on roses) showing grow bag plants grew significantly better (above ground - leaves, etc. - and below ground - roots) than the same plants grown in plastic containers, because of the drainage, temperature, and reduction of being pot bound.

The 5-1-1 for me in the grow bags was not good. The plants sometimes dried too fast, and were drought stressed as opposed to having constant moisture. I don't mind watering but they needed it way too often for me to be able to keep up. They eventually looked terrible in summer and were not blooming well at all. After replanting in Miracle Gro rose (which I hated in principle) they are doing so much better. The ones that are only 1st year babies, I planted in an organic soil from Walmart that does not have granular fertilizer just to prevent root burn (and some mail order nurseries void the warranty if you use non-soluble fertilizer the first year). The small ones are also doing much better than the small ones did in 5-1-1 last year. The MG Rose soil is $4 for a 1.5 cf bag at the nearest Walmart.

Also, I love DynaGro 9-3-6 and Protekt and use them on all my house plants. But, I think you have to be pretty affluent or not attached to your $$ to use them on roses (it will cost a lot). I have been fertilizing weekly, weakly, with a rotation of 1) Miracle Growth Rose soluble fertilizer, 2) Peters 20-20-20 (has micronutrients just like the DynaGro 9-3-6 does), and 3) Alaskan Fish Emulsion mixed with Grower's Recharge (to replace microorganisms in the container). Finally, when I initially plant my roses in the containers, I soak their roots and sprinkle the roots with Micorrizhae from David Austin. I have found that in comparison to the ones I didn't use Micorrizhae, that the fungi helps them get established a lot faster.

There is no one best way, and no one right way to grow well. It's all trial and error. If the 5-1-1 doesn't give you what you need, this could be another option.

Hope this helps!

Windwaker....darn, darn, darn....good for you, obviously, ... but I spent a lot of money on this 5-1-1 and bought two yards of it!! Yikes!! Well, maybe this soil will be good for our multiflora rootstock which loves acidity. Plus, by using Straw's method of lightly fertilizing more often than I was doing...maybe this will help. Sure hope so! Well...I guess if I've wasted money on this...that then I'll try your way. I really appreciate your advice (which is probably to the OP rather than to me LOL), Sheesh...there is always something to learn...so glad we can share experiences here.

Carol

Windwaker, why don't you just add peat moss to it? It's easy to buy a bag and make the 5.1.1. more water retentive if you find it's too difficult for you.

I grow all my roses in the 5.1.1 mix, but remember that those that use a composted bark fare much better than those using the 'repti bark', un-composted version of bark. I also soak my mixes before I use them. It's all in the way you handle the mix or make it. Mines do NOT do well in the Miracle Grow because all I have to do is have a few days of cold night and moist pots, and my roses get root rot and disease..It's all dependent on many factors..For me I like to play it safe and use a mix that dries out rapidly, allowing me to water as often as I like, one that stay moist and allows me not to worry if I should get a cool damp summer which has been happening much more often lately.

Myermike - those are good points...we have cool summers too.

Carol

I tried to make the gritty mix years ago, but the problem is I couldn't find the pine bark in the right size. It turned out TERRIBLE.

Perennialfan, if the bark was not the right size then why did you use it? You could of prevented a lot of trouble using the 5.1.1 mix instead or something similar based on the foundation of these mixes here, being porous enough to allow phenomenal growth.

Rose, yes. I lost a many roses to very fine mixes like the Miracle Grow one, and in fact many citrus too. My area is not very forgiving when using these mixes, especially with Roses since they are subjected to extremely cold temps coming in to spring after they have thawed out, or after summer. Left in a mix that stays wet that long, they all rot out never to come back.

Festiva, beautiful looking roses. My hats off to you. Thanks for sharing.

What many don't realize is that when using the 5.1.1 mix, it encourages extremely rapid and dense root mass in containers. Containers fill out rapidly and many don't bother to up size their pots or root trim before this happens causing the very tight containers to dry out way to fast. That is why I over pot since using the 5.1.1 mix does not tend to rot roots and in fact allows more room for root growth in one season or more. You don't have to worry about planting a small rose bush in a huge container but with a bagged finer mix you do.

Then too, one does NOT have to use fabric pots or the like because a porous mix is only forced to dry out faster than one can keep up with and is not needed.

In fact, if I plant my trees or shrubs, even tomatoes in a container just big enough for the root ball, even the finer peaty mixes dry out too fast too once the roots fill the container.

So no matter how one looks at it, there is a possible problem with any mix one uses, so you have to be extremely careful that one does not cause root rot or allow the roots to fill out the containers too tight to cause lack of water issues.

Mike

Like I said, I use 5-1-1 in some conditions and really like it. However, it is not good for everyone in every condition (agricultural and lifestyle/personality). As someone with a Ph.D. in science myself, I understand the science behind 5-1-1 is solid, but honestly, I'd personally much rather buy bags of Miracle Gro than have to hunt down bark the right size, preferably composted, rinse Turface, break my back sifting everything, have to store all the components, then have to go buy peat moss, unpot all my (thorny) plants and re-do the mix and replant everything when they mix turns out not to be mixed ideally for my conditions. Besides, the performance of my roses in both mixes given my cultural conditions is data enough for me at the moment.

Like I said, I like 5-1-1 in many conditions and use it myself, but IMHO folks should do whatever works best for them. In zone 8A, I am not really worried about cold, wet summers.

As a psychologist working full time with Veterans with PTSD, and volunteering in my free time to help law enforcement, firefighters and first responders in general, I enjoy gardening but I have many other things I'd rather be doing in my spare time than spending hours shopping for ideal soil ingredients, breaking my back sifting them for correct particle size, watering everything twice a day in the dead of summer, or tweaking mixes to be good enough. I also just don't have the dough to fertilize my outdoor plants with 9-3-6 (not that that is a requirement of 5-1-1).

But, I understand for some folks that's their idea of heaven. No judgments of any kind. Just posting what worked for me. (However, I will ironically spend countless hours happily arranging flowers). Happy gardening to all!

Windwaker, I was trying to help people here that might of had a bad experience using the 5.1 1 mix with roses and my experience coming from a northerner grower..Sorry if I offended you.. For me there is no chore in making the 5.1,1 mix and well worth the effort. And I do grow many plants in Miracle Grow, but none of the growth I get can compare to a much more porous mix.

Festive, did you not see the compliment I gave you?

Like I said, many have to watch the same things in any mix they use. There is no one size fits all, although the more porous a mix is, the better off roots to any plants do. That we can all agree on.

Have a good night

Myermike this was years ago (when I knew almost NOTHING about soil). I didn't think it would matter that much if the pink bark was slightly bigger (or smaller can't remember). Apparently I was wrong. I'd really appreciate it if someone can direct me to a store in the midwest where I can find the bark in the correct size, because so far I've been unsuccessful in doing so.

MyerMike - I found that a lot of my roses that weren't thriving (pre 5-1-1), had rotted roots/very small amount of roots. So I think your problems with Miracle Grow soil would probably be my problems too. I'm hoping the 5-1-1 works really well. :) Interesting about the root development in containers. You have some great information here! Thank you! I overpot too. How often do you change you 5-1-1 mixture? My pots are 22" diameter by 20"tall with a volume of 25 gallons. I'm hoping I can get maybe 4 or 5 years without changing the soil/repotting. Do you think that's too long to go without repotting/resoiling? Should I just play it by ear? Thanks...if this is too complicated with too many variables...you can just ignore my question. :) Thanks so much, Mike.

I'm lucky to have a place that mixes it for me and delivers it. So easy-peasy.

Carol

Festive, did you not see the compliment I gave you?

Whoa! Where did this come from? You go away for a couple of days to make a living, and things escalate quickly :)

Forfunlife, I doubt you are still there, but here's my final thought: I also live in Maryland, and I also grow David Austin roses, aka English roses in containers. They are quite versatile and grown all over the world right now, but they still like consistent moisture around the roots. It's going to be 90 degrees today and tomorrow, so plant your rose fast in the best potting mix you can buy and enjoy the fragrant blooms all summer long.

I'm out of this thread, gang. No need to follow up. Got tomatoes and melon to plant...

Oops, maybe I should of said " hope you saw the nice compliment I gave you", since you had time to read the post after mine and like that. My apologies..

I can assure you that I am not one of the 'cult' members as mentioned above) I too use Miracle Grow when convenient for certain plant materials..Please, correct me if I am wrong, but do I sense a bit of little hostility here ?

Carol your welcome)). The 5.1.1 mix should last about 2 to 3 years in the same container if you plant in one big enough. Less if the roots fill the pot out faster than that. Hope that helps.

Hopefully if anyone decides to grow in a very water retentive mix, specifically bagged mixes with a majority of the components being peat, they watch their watering practices closely in cooler climates and make sure the PW in it does not suffocate the roots with quick compaction and decomposition)

There are some good bagged mixes and all you have to do is buy a good quality one. You could make it more porous using perlite, or leave as is depending on your area and what is best for your rose bushes and their vitality.

Have a great day all.

Mike

I grow a lot of roses in pots. At my job I set up five pots to create a little rose garden where we have some seating to eat lunch on non-rainy days. I know good soil when I see it or make it myself, but I will caution you with smaller nurseries that may sell "potting mix" that is far from it.

I used what the nursery called "potting mix" when all it ended up being was compost on the two pots at the ends and my own mix on the roses in the center. The ones on the end have completely stunted their growth while the ones in the middle are taking off.

My advice, go with the miracle grow and possibly add the moisture crystals to the mix. Give the roses about three months before adding fertilizers or any other additives. Also, don't forget the mulch. Potted plants dry out very quickly and anything that you can do to keep that moisture in will help the plant.

Good Luck,

-Adrian.

Adrian, beautiful work! What a nice way to make an area where you can not plant in ground to surround others with something so nice. Quite thoughtful of others actually. I'll bet they love sitting out there, especially if they have a fragrance.

What Zone do you live in? Do you get hard freeze and snow?

The mulch is a great idea. I will do that to mines too.

Lucky you if you live in a much warmer climate.

Mike

Mike - thanks so much!!! :)

Adrain - beautiful environment you made at work!!

Carol

I am a newbie to container roses. Thank you everyone for sharing your experience and fertilizers. I do think the type of pot and plant matters when choosing soil. I use fabric pots and solid ones. Also with 511 mix you probably have to stay on top of watering some more in summer and even in winter Agree with adjusting the moisture retaining component if necessary. Experimentation!

Here is Earth Angel happy in her pot with pine bark, compost and perlite.

You know, I was wondering if the certain local and temps play a huge role?

In my area, I never have a problem with the 5.1.1 mix drying out so rapidly, and in fact not quick enough. I have actually rotted many a plant out with the 5.1.1 mix so have had to actually add no peat at all. Crazy as it sounds. But from what I am reading up thread, seems that roses like to stay moist longer than most shrubs in a pot. That is certainly a plus for those of us that like to use bagged mixes or other mixes that hold water much longer, especially in hotter climates.

Totoro, beautiful roses!! Great job. Thank God the heat is on right? I wish it would stick around)

Mike

Totoro -your rose looks super happy in its pot/soil. Good job!!!

Mike - I keep thinking about how you said that the roots can rot in pots when the water doesn't drain enough. I am sooo certain that that is what has happened to some of my roses. My roses that are really big, don't seem to have that problem...but roses that are small, don't seem to draw up as much moisture from the soil. I've dug a few of them up before, and there's hardly any roots. But when I've dug out the huge roses...the roots are ginormous. Cause and effect may be circuitous there. :) I'm really excited to see how my new roses in 5-1-1 do.

Carol

Rose, what size pots did you use? How big is the root ball compared to the container? How will you keep the very top moist? What kind of bark is it? Can you take a close up pic of the mix? I'd like to see what it looks like-)

The key is that watering may have to be much more often as the roots fill the container to begin with and depending on temps and amount of sunlight,, but once the mix gets settled and watered a few times so that the bark holds moisture longer, watering becomes much less frequent. Too it's dependent of the kind of bark.

My rose pots are 25 gallons. I don't know how big the rootball is compared to the container. My wimpy roses (when I've dug them up have very small roots)...whereas others have such large root systems that they are much heaver to move. It is pine bark fines. Maybe I can find time to take a picture on Sat. :) This is what the place mixed up for me:

20% Peat

20% ½” minus Pumice (rather then perlite, we stock perlite but the pumice is truly superior in our opinion unless you are trying to keep weight down?) Pumice is also significantly cheaper then Perlite.

60% Fir Fines – ours are ½” minus they will provide a good long lasting media

4kg of Zeolite

Thanks,Mike

totoro, do you leave your pots outside or bring them in during the winter?

Now I need to look up Zeolite. Do you know why they think pumice is better than perlite?

Vaporvac - nope...I have no idea. LOL Maybe Zeolite is cheaper??? :)

Carol

I leave all my pots outside. Some I bring close to the house.

Just so that people don't think I am some sort of container wiz, I should say that Earth Angel grew that large from a band after almost 3 years in the ground. I only just moved it to that pot early spring. So it remains to be seen whether she will make it over the summer or this winter. She seems very cane hardy so I am assuming she will be fine. She seems happy in this soil mix so far even though I have the soil covered with plastic to prevent any midges from last year emerging.

Mike - what type of fertilizer do you use on your potted roses?

Carol

I just use plain old garden potting soil mix with some perlite for our potted roses. Then i use mircle Grow Rose food and replace the soil as needed. one key th is to keep them pruned well , water them enough, and to make sure they get right amount of sunlight. Especially when it comes to geting too much in excessive heat.

That is my double delight hyhybrid tea rose during a good year.

Lovely DD...I love the yellow, pink and purple all together.

This seems like the perfect thread for information about roses and 511 mix.

I decided to put all my roses in 20in x 20in air pots with 511 mix. All of them were bare root. So far, it hasn't been great. the bareroots have taken more time than usual to start growing. They also show signs of needing more water. My mix seems to be water repellent and I have had to start watering earlier this year in order to keep the roses from dying off.

After a couple of rains and waterings, the pots seem to be holding onto water a little better, and my roses are starting to wake up. But I can still tell the soil is dry when I stick my finger in the top of it. I guess that means it's draining well, but it's not retaining water. This made me worry about summer.

So I decided to take some smaller 5gallon air pots and double the peat moss in the recipe to 512. It still drained really fast, but I don't know if that is better for the larger pots or not.

So I took another pot and increased the mix to 513. After filling it with water, it behaved much more like the potting mix I normally use (miracle gro potting mix). This morning, I could tell it was retaining water. We had an 80 degree full sun day today, so I'm going to see how it handled it when I get home from work.

Thought I'd share this for others who might be interested in this. Everyone's experience has already been very helpful!

Roses love worm castings in theier soil and rich potting soil. and they LOVE fish emulsion fertilizer much better than mircle gro. just found out about fish emulsion a few months ago. Roses really love it!

I am not sure how good this soil is for roses (link below) because I order one big bag in Winter and use it for everything in the garden; but every year I used it as topping soil in pots, they did did beautifully. It is pretty moisture retentive but at the same time well draining too since it has sand in it too. It seems to work ell but this year I don't know if it's this soil or the alfalfa pellets or the Costco rose fertilizer granules or all.

Either way, this year they have a spectacular number of buds, sturdy stems...pretty much as close to perfection as I've ever gotten even though I may have slightly overfed them bc at some point they had some burned leaves. But they came back.

Soil3 might have something to do with it but I don't know.

https://www.soil3.com/

DLEverette, That’s what I discovered 5 years ago when I posted above…

Roses do best with rich poting soil, or rose specific soil mix. Roses planted in the ground alsalso ddo bbest wwhen they have ssome rich poting soil or soil mix for roses, mixed in with natural soil and a little compost like rotting leaves. You can a add some worm castings to your roses you just planted to help give them some extra nutrition. and y can also try the fish emulsion fertilizer to help stimulate root and foliage growth.

That is my dou delidelight rose this year af neanearly dydying in 2023 from excessive summer heat. i reppoted it with rose soil mix and gave it some fish emulsion fertilizer. Looks really great now! BIG blooms now too.