Greenboard isn't suitable tile backer unless you apply Schluter Kerdi over it.

Actually, Schluter recommends applying Kerdi over ordinary gyp board. It does not stick as well to greenboard -- or so they say. We have never tried it.

Greenboard was great once but has no place in contemporary tile work.

We no longer use cement backer. We use the Schluter system in all showers and have for 20 years. But, we still use Duroc on floors unless they are to be heated.

the mentality of someone trying to justify any gypsum based product in a wet area regardless what you cover it with, i will never understand. Drywall, diamondrock denshield all of it is cut corner limho

T.F.W.:

You're old school. Nothing wrong with that except it makes you less competitive. Kerdi is waterproof. Not water shedding, not water resistant, water proof. If you line a cardboard box with Kerdi you could use it for a cooler.

T.F.W.

Cement board wicks water. Water does not hurt the board itself just as water does not harm concrete, so as long as the board dries up between showers, no harm results. But in a very wet environment, the board never dries completely and provides a fine breeding ground for mold.

Kerdi, however, is waterproof. Water can get to it, but not into it or through it, so the membrane itself and structure behind the membrane never get wet. Since water stays right at the surface of the membrane, it dries quickly leaving no opportunity for mold to get started.

Besides which it is easier and cheaper than the old concrete base with cement board walls saving me time and money and permitting me to charge my clients 20% less than we charged for the old-style shower.

And I like Schluter's lifetime warranty. If their stuff does not work as advertised, they pay for the rework, not me. so far it has never happened. Kerdi works exactly as Schluter specifies.

Fact - MR drywall not allowed in wet areas since 2006

Food for thought. USG manufactures drywall and a waterproof membrane far superior to Kerdi yet will not allow it over drywall in a wet area. They understand moisture/condensation/vapor permeation/ plumbing failures etc. could deteriorate the drywall from the wall cavity side or any improperly sealed penetration. There are many good products on the market and some not so good with great marketing. Why anyone would use drywall in a shower has no basis in logic. IMO

Joe - "If you line a cardboard box with Kerdi you could use it for a cooler."

True but if that box/cooler was exposed to the morning dew on the outside it would collapse. The beer would fall out and get warm. I hate warm beer.

I see your point. Hope you see mine:)

Creative Tile

Good to know.

Creative,

Thank you for that post.

You answered his question by pointing out that greenboard has been a code violation since '06 when used as a tile backer board in wet areas, AND you're one of the first guys to be aware of, or at least acknowledge, why it may be prudent to NOT use gypsum board a sheet membrane backer because what can happen INSIDE the framing bay.

Bravo.

In your honor, I'm going to drink a cold beer. Maybe even two!

Nice to see others finally seeing it. I've had way too many arguments with Schluter reps, and even Laticrete reps (they also allow for Hydroban to be used over drywall) about this. I'm not afraid of leakage, but you have a hot shower on one side of the wall, and a cool void on the other, INSIDE the wall. I'm sorry, but over time, condensation is going to ruin that installation. REGARDLESS of the fact that the manufacturers say it's fine.

The waterproofing manufacturers product will have done it's job. They will have no liability as their product was not the portion of the shower assembly that failed. Yep they were able to bond to the drywall. Buyer beware.

Mongo, One of these days I may join you for that cold one or two. CT is not that big:)

Creative,

Add pizza to that beer. I just got my wood-fired pizza oven up and running. Still have some "purdy work" to do on it to beautify it, but it cooks!

Bill, if you're still reading, I thought of you this weekend. Was up in Wells, Maine, Sat-Sun, just got home a few hours ago. Such a short visit I didn't even get to go out for a cup of coffee myself, never mind getting the chance to invite you down for one!

Maybe next time. I worked all weekend, anyway. When I wasn't setting tile, I'm a range safety officer now at a local state gun range on Saturday afternoons. Next time you come up, though, let me know, and I'll set some time aside!

Well, you guys can argue about all of this til the end of time, but the fact remains that these walls have stood up for almost 30 years with the green board behind the tiles.

That is just a fact that I can, personally, attest to.

I took apart two of these baths. Only one had any damage behind the tile, and it was a small area. The other bath that I took down had no damage behind the tile. No mold, no rot, no wet areas. There is one remaining bath with this green board and there are no visible signs of any rot or wetness--- that are apparent.

We have lived in this house and raised two kids, so the facilities did get a lot of use. It was more the fact that the shower pans and tub were just so darned old and grody that lead me to replace them. Plus, there was the issue of updating.

When I went to research this topic I found it to be a topic that brought forth such a competitive and confrontational and chest beating argument between mostly guys.

I have no doubt that the tile work being done by some of you is done properly and done very well. But, the fact remains that my walls really have stood the test of time, with green board.

I realize also that some of you are doing this on a professional level and the responsibility to your customer is important enough to use the latest and the greatest materials. I understand that. Leaking water in the walls and floors of a house is never a good thing and your professional reputation is at stake.

I am not advocating that green board be used by any of you. I am just relating my experience with it.

It makes me wonder if one thing that is different is maybe the types of tiles being used for so much of the newer work. It looks like these large and heavy tiles are what is used for so much of what I am seeing. My walls were cheap contractor tiles--the little 6x6 things. They may have been cheap and old when I took them out, but the damage was really limited and not unexpected for something that has been used that much for that long a time.

I do realize that the standards/codes changed about 12 years ago for most localities. I wonder if it had more to do with lobbying and marketing than real issues. That does happen, a lot.

These manufacturers keep upping the ante and creating desire, or code, for their products.

I strongly suspect that this could be one of those cases. And, it seems to be continuing with newer materials seeking to take the place of the current ones, as we speak. Nothing is perfect and not much is forever.

Many homeowners are probably going to want to renovate and update before many of these installations get to the failing point. Still, not having water damage to your home in the meantime is a real plus.

I have seen the videos of tiling jobs gone wrong and none of that looks good.

Just saying---thats all.

"Well, you guys can argue about all of this til the end of time, but the
fact remains that these walls have stood up for almost 30 years with the
green board behind the tiles."

"I did...cement board in the new redo. But, I wonder if it
would have been that awful to use green board. Green board is certainly
easier to work with."

Wednesday morning,

When you asked:

"Has anyone used green board for a redo? I have one more bath to work on and I hated the cement board."

I think most of us here saw that as an honest question. And Creative gave you an honest answer.

Greenboard has not been allowed by building code as a tile backer board in wet areas since January of 2006. I think that's what the people posting were trying to point that out to you in a very simple and non-argumentative way.

If you want to use greenboard in your shower, no one is going to stop you. Feel free to do so.

Trust me, there is no anger or angst in my reply to you.

Building methods and materials change as construction philosophy and building technology changes. I grew up in a house that when the wind blew outside you could feel it coming through trim around the exterior windows and around the electrical outlets. You could feel airflow coming from the ceiling lights from the attic above. The point I'm getting at is that old houses were not air tight. That airflow through the house was great at moving moisture. It kept houses dry.

As energy management evolved and eliminating air infiltration became a part of standard building practices, controlling moisture generated within the envelope became more important. The air whistling through the walls was no longer there to carry generated moisture away. Protecting materials that could be considered susceptible to moisture damage became a priority. If they could not be protected, they were eliminated from the building process.

Honestly, I think it's terrific that you have undamaged greenboard behind the tile in your showers. However, since you are remodeling, when you rebuild, I also think it's smart to align your remodeling methods with current building practices and code.

There are other tile backer board products that are not greenboard, which is prohibited by code, and that are not cement board, which you say you dislike. You could use one of them and still be compliant with code.

Or just go ahead and use greenboard. It's your house. It's your choice.

Best of luck with your rebuild.

And I can show you apartment buildings and hotels, much less residences, where it didnt last a year. Worst is there are many more failures than successes, which is why its use was outlawed in 06.

The only forum on the web where novice's argue with no less than 5 tile pros and builders, with a combined experience of 200 +yrs...LOL houzz.

I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you mention it... :-)

This is America where anyone can argue anything with whomever they wish. God bless the U.S. of A.

"Well, you guys can argue about all of this til the end of time,"

I guess I missed the argument. Simply stated facts. The drywall manufacturer does not approve their product for a wet area PERIOD. If another response is needed a YouTube search will eventually provide you with what you want to hear.

When I went to research this topic, I found a lot of chest beating and a competitive argument that prevailed around many aspects of doing a tile job, not just with the issue of what backer board to use. It seems almost like competitive grass growing and lawn competition.

As a female, I have a name for these guys with the power tools. Being that I am a polite female, I will refrain from sharing it since it is both profane and not flattering.

I did not like using cement board because it is so heavy, harder to cut and I don't have near the upper body strength of a man. It was just very difficult for me to handle. Lacking in body strength causes me to have to use some ingenuity to move heavy things around and maneuver them into place.

I am not arguing. I am just relating my experience. And, my experience is that the walls have held up for quite a respectable amount of time, with green board. I did use cement board for the redo.

If what I see on YouTube is to be believed, there have been many failed jobs where the latest and the greatest products have been used.

The truth is that it probably comes down to how much knowledge and experience one has, and how much attention is paid to the details of making a wall waterproof. Probably, the skills and knowledge of the installer are just as much, if not more, important than the materials used. In other words, a job can still fail if there is a lack of understanding of the basic principles that are to be addressed, or if it is done poorly.

I think that it is way past time for a revolution in how we build our houses and what materials are used.

When my dad built his houses, they were simple houses that accommodated a single plumbing stack that served all needs. (My dad built, himself, all of the houses that we lived in.) If I were to design my own house, I would prefer to have a simple plumbing stack like that and have a central room that had access to all the plumbing and a manifold system.

In this piece of 80's nonsense that I live in, the logistics of everything in the house just make no darned sense. It is all about style over substance, and the style is really quite unremarkable and extremely ordinary.

What sense is there is running water pipes through the ceilings and walls at all angles and avenues just to make a hose bibb or to create a shower on the other side of the house? Why not design the house with the plumbing structure as a prime consideration, not an afterthought, where the logistics of utilities and the floor plan are more in a more workable relationship to one another? That is what I would love to see----a workable combination of both style and function.

And, why can it not be that, in order to change an electric socket that it could not just a harness hook up such as that used in electronics?

Why use this old fashioned gypsum wall board and all of the darned trim? There must be some better and easier way to use some new materials.

I would welcome a new way of building and new materials.

It is exciting to see what is being done with some of the manufactured houses and commercial buildings. The old fashioned stick built structures with their old and outdated, convoluted and tortured designs and techniques are sorely in need of an update.

I want a house made by Rubbermaid, with a central drain hole in the middle. All needful things would be stored behind closed walls along the outer walls of the house, thus providing not only storage, but insulation. Well, at least, I would like a bathroom made like that, if not the whole house.

My real dream bathroom is one big waterproof room with all integrated facilities in it. And, there would be the drain in the middle and a high pressure hose to keep it clean.

The walls of my dreamhouse would be movable and able to be rearranged and the electrical sockets would be able to just be plugged in once you moved the wall.

My dream house is a far cry from most.

Modern building practices use and waste a lot of materials that are not only labor intensive to use, but also environmental nightmares. And, in my opinion, most of what is built using these old fashioned techniques, styes and materials is in need of a change of vision and some new codes and standards that make a real difference in how we live in our houses, how we build and what we expect and value.

Anytime I tackle a redo job I find myself cursing the way things are done. It does not have to be this darned complicated.

Wednesday morning

You make some really good points, and I would like to respond to not all, but a couple.

First, youtube.com has no video showing the failure of Kerdi board. When I read your post, I went and looked because if the stuff is failing somehow, I need to know that. There were, however, none.

I investigated a Kerdi failure about 10 years ago for Schluter after a customer complained. The problem was very clearly caused by multiple installation issues by an inexperienced contractor, not the material itself. Other than this one instance, I have never heard of a Kerdi failure.

There are no "no waste" housing construction techniques, but there are low waste techniques now being adopted in many places. California, as usual, is a leader in the technology. Some, however, have been around for years including structural integrated panels (SIP) and cast-in-place concrete.

The problem with these is that they are usually more expensive than stick-built construction and have not gotten wide market acceptance. We try to use SIP construction when we build additions, but it is not always feasible.

The most environmentally friendly construction occurs when there is no construction at all. Reusing existing houses, for example. Tearing down an existing structure and rebuilding is the most wasteful of all, although sometimes unavoidable.

I am always just floored when I see something like a large mall or a commercial building being torn down. Just where does all of that debris go? It is such a tangled mess of materials of all kinds. How can materials be separated out?

Then, there are natural disasters that require the tear down, repair and replacing of acres of buildings, such as a flood or a hurricane.

Where does all of that plumbing, old appliances and plastic siding go?

Reusing existing structures is commendable, but not really without it's environmental consequences, either. There is very little, if anything, that does not leave a carbon footprint.

We need some really progressive ideas, concepts, and materials for building. And, we need them right now, not in the future. And, not just in CA!

There is a small contingent of folks on the cutting edge of a new way. It is always exciting to read about them.

My one regret in life is that I feel that I missed my calling and did not enter a field where I could have been instrumental in bringing this about.

Maybe, in the not too distant future, there will come a time when we will be forced, by necessity, to embrace the constructive and widespread creative use and reuse of materials and resources. As is usual, we will react to a dire situation rather than adopting a change before that happens. Always, we are reactive, and not proactive.

I, for one, am just totally uninspired and unimpressed by so much of the design and building that I see going on. There is so much boring and mundane repetition of the same old, same old concepts.

In the meanwhile, why is something like Kerdi not widely available, if it is a preferred material for a professional job? Why is it not displayed in the tiling aisle of HD?

If it is at the home improvement stores, it certainly is not on prominent display.

So many of these materials require one to find a dealer in order to get these things.

I would like a well built, yet simple house that does not require the services of a secret society of tradesmen to maintain and repair.

I may not have an electric planer to plane down the face of a stud that projects too far out, or the skills to bed a new wall with that one expert pass of the trowel. But, that "swinging dk" with the power tools does not own a top of the line serger, either. And, he is not likely to be able to turn a double welted pocket on a vest, or know how to understitch a facing or baste in an interfacing, or apply a bias binding to a neckline. If he had to join a perfect circle to a flat piece of fabric, or place neatly stitched buttonholes in the exact same position all the way down a shirt, he would be stumped. He would make a mess of serged circle, even with expensive equipment and high quality fabric.

I would be just as lost with his power tools as he would be with mine. He would be no more adept at my skills than I with his. Still, if he sewed a curtain panel and hemmed it with fusible facing rather than blind stitching it, I would respect that as long as it was straight and level. I use many of the same tools when constructing something from woven fabric that a builder/carpenter uses. I use metal straight edges, L squares, and calipers. I use razor edged cutting tools and joining techniques that are uniquely suited to the objective and materials. I use jigs and scoring and marking templates. I have several tools in my collection that came from Home Depot.

I know how much tolerance in tension is acceptable when applying a bias piece to a curved edge and how much tension to apply according to the degree of curve, but I don't know how much tolerance is acceptable when creating a flat surface to tile, or if that tiny amount of give in the wall is going to cause problems even if it is high up on the wall and not likely to ever be tested.

But, clothing and home furnishings can be easily bought and he is not likely to ever need these skilled things to be done. On the other hand, our houses require constant upkeep, repair and replacing of which all is expensive and could cause our homes to become flooded or walls to collapse if done wrong. I wish that it was all much more simple and homeowner friendly to do so. I would be OK with that carpenter with the fused hem on his curtain, as long as the curtain was simple in design. I want the same simplicity in my house and it's construction.

I hate relating to one of those guys at Home Depot. I always tell them that some male person is doing the work.

I like to find videos of women doing repairs. Women have a different approach. We will find creative and ingenious solutions to make up for what we lack in upper body strength, and oftentimes there is more than one way to do the reckoning.

And, yes, I do know that there are limits to what I can, and should, do as an unskilled homeowner. Just as I would charge more to remake/resew someones bad job, I can understand why tradesmen would feel the same way. It is more work and expense to undo and then redo something than to just do it right in the first place. I understand that. I refuse to repair hems or resize garments, for anyone.

But, I wish for the simplicity that minimizes the complexity that makes it all so darned expensive and complicated. It is time for a change. Past time..............give me some plug in harness sockets instead of all that pulling and joining of wires and please make shoe moulding downright illegal!