Apples vs. bananas, IMO. One was basically taunted & vilified by an entire political group - including the President of the United States - for years, while the other flew under the radar until outed.

And how many white Americans believe they have "Cherokee blood" in their ancestry?

I think the second issue is pretty bizarre; I don't think you can "identify as" a race unless you are that race and/or were reared under the impression that you were that race. At least that is how it seems to me. I would replace "identified as" with "pretended she was".

As for Warren, what you describe above, if it is accurate, seems fine. It is also my understanding that she did not, as some have said, claim to be anything other than Caucasian in her applications for schools, jobs, etc. I identify with a certain European ancestry but never knew a relative from there and I am only about 1/8th, but it is simply a heritage I heard the most about. I am probably a higher % of something else.

It occurs to me that my kids are only 1/16th the heritage I am thinking of, and they too would probably identify most closely with that same heritage, since their Dad's heritage is pretty mixed. It is the heritage in which they know a few words, songs, stories and recipes.

Eld, why are you trying to compare/conflate the two? Looks like you're searching for a commonality that isn't there.

I'm sure a lot of the family stories I was told as a child are BS, too.

I had a grandmother who was wonderful but a bit of a flamboyant character. Once at our family dinner table she mentioned that we were related to French royalty. I was a teen, and when I rolled my eyes, I was shooed away from the meal.

Exactly cawsps, I was the most Irsh of the Irsh growing up. Always the most green on St. Patrick Day! I was in my 60s before I realized how little Irsh was in me.

Funny. I'm half italian, half irish, identify exclusively as italian. My Irish grandmother was also flamboyant, full of wonderful stories and baloney, and I loved her even if she did think my beloved Italian father was a greaseball wop.

I think Warren's story is pretty normal.

Dolezal's is strange and there is probably some kind of back story that would help people understand.

They don't seem related.

I agree, fori.

Sorry I was not implying they were related. I was just giving two examples that I found interesting in how people identify themselves.

Really? That was pretty hard to discern.

Warren's claim is verifiable whereas Dolezai's exists only in her mind. They don't even belong in the same sentence together.

I'm not overly concerned about my ancestry, although it is of interest to me, the real story, from a family history point of view. But people make up all kinds of stories about family history, even history they lived through. But not particularly of interest to me from a "blood" point of view, humans are basically one big genetically related family biologically speaking. Now more than ever, but we've always been on the move, gene-pool wise. So the concern for "what you are" other than human, always baffles me.

Frankly, I think Senator Warren should have just let DT flap his gums, not worth taking the bait, IMHO. But whatever. "My people" call this kind of thing "bupkes." Literal translation is "goat turds." Any adult who would stoop to using "Pocahontas" in the manner of a schoolyard taunt, is one sick person if you ask me. So starting from there, I would back away as fast as I could from that person and keep on going and never look back.

As for the other woman, people "pass" for all kinds of things, has always been something that some humans feel the need to do. I know some people who conflate their backgrounds on many fronts, so just part of the whole spectrum of human behavior. One notable example is that painter who took credit for his wife's "big eyes" painting/work, Walter and Margaret Keane.

"My people" call this kind of thing "bupkes." Literal translation is "goat turds."

LOL I never knew the exact etymology!

DT promised 1mn to a charity if she could prove it. SO why not?

I agree with pinkmountain, wish she hadn't drank Trump's Kool-aid. She's been around long enough to know that his "promises" are empty rhetoric.

I was under the impression that the Cherokee nation can not verify heritage via a DNA test. From my understanding it must be proven by direct blood link and proof of name and heritage. I am not positive of this but I seem to recall this is why most DNA tests will give you your broad heritage only; ie, that your ancestors came from and settled in certain geographic areas of the US.

Outside, when I worked for Adoptions we had to make absolutely certain that the adoptee was not of Indian heritage before the adoption was approved. And the only way to do that was through tribal records as you stated.

That is interesting, nannygoat.

I have been told my great grandmother on my father’s side was half Cherokee. Maybe she was, or maybe some part, I don’t know and I have never researched this. It wasn’t important to me to declare myself or identify myself as Cherokee, even if I could. I wanted to be recognized for my own accomplishments, not because of my heritage. I admit, I am still curious and may look into it one day. Most of my relatives on this side do have strong features typical of what one sees as American Indian. Dark hair that seldom turns very gray, dark or olive skin, long bones.

I read this thread on my way home in uber and actually laughed aloud as I read Mtn's post up thread. I too associate with one of my European lines much more than the others. But it was the extravagant fibbing grandparent that had me laughing aloud.. AND being excused from the table for eyerolling! LOL.. I can't tell you how many times I was excused from the table for something! I was the oldest and always doing something that was a bad example or bad behavior lol!

My grandfather was the one who had me going -- he told me I was related to a famous, handsome tv teen (think Ozzy & Harriet). Not royalty but to an precocious 8/9 yo it was pretty darn close! The difference in my story is that I believed it.. I believed it and told my friends! It was a number of years later when I learned the truth-- which only made it sting more! LOL.

I recently shared this story with my parents-- who don't remember it but were certain my grandfather didn't know that when he "pulled my leg" that I'd carry it as truth for years. I don't agree. I am sure he got quite the laugh when I asked if "cousin Ricky" would be coming to visit at Christmas and various other celebrations!

Funnier still is that he wasn't even from my generation. We didn't watch him on tv-- but I'd seen pictures and I developed a crush! I was old enough to have a crush on him-- but not old enough to know that marrying cousins was taboo!

Outside, NPR interviewed a high-ranking member of the Cherokee nation the other day and he said the same thing. They are a sovereign nation and their laws require birth certificates and family records to prove membership.

My dad’s grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee, so that makes me, what, 1/16th? Though if you see me you can tell I have a lot of Northern European ancestry...blue eyes, blond hair and pale skin. :)

Donna

I'm not overly concerned about my ancestry, although it is of interest to me, the real story, from a family history point of view. But people make up all kinds of stories about family history, even history they lived through. But not particularly of interest to me from a "blood" point of view, humans are basically one big genetically related family biologically speaking. Now more than ever, but we've always been on the move, gene-pool wise. So the concern for "what you are" other than human, always baffles me.

I dunno, I'm interested in evolutionary biology, and am fascinated that I might have 2% Neanderthal DNA (typical of people of European descent), and my daughter likely has both Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA. My blue eyes were inherited from just one person with that mutation who lived in Northern Europe six to ten thousand years ago.

Like Sheesh, I'm half Italian (Dad's side is straight from Italy) and half German on Mom's side. I grew up with the Italian family side so I've always identified as Italian-despite my blue eyes (but my great-grandmother had blue eyes-some one in her line came from other than Sicily!)

My DH's family on his fathers side swears they're Cherokee but I'd lay any amount of money on that being a family legend. They look like 100% German stock. Oh, there is also a family legend that their GG-Grandfather was one of the Hatfields and changed his name to avoid prosecution.

Identifying with a heritage is one thing-identifying as a completely different race is another all together. As a young girl I dreamed of all things Asian-I was enamored with Japan-but I didn't identify as Japanese!

We have entire groups -- like Daughters of the American Revolution, based on a heritage many generations old. I don't hear anyone criticizing them because their links are several great or great greats back.

I went to law school where Liz Warren was teaching and regarded as a favorite and most respected professor. I practiced attending a number of CLE seminars where she was a regular speaker and highly regarded expert in her field. She, the male professor from UH she often worked with and the judge I clerked for are probably the three people I respected most for their expertise, insights and analysis. I care far more about that than I do her heritage -- but I do find that interesting. And I understand her pride in tracing roots back. I enjoy knowing something of my heritage. Ancestry.com and others have made an industry out of selling people on just that, so obviously a lot of other people do too.

The other woman's story -- I do not understand.

I can understand why Elizabeth Warren, after hearing stories while growing up, would be proud to have some bit of Native American heritage, however small, and I’m sure she was glad to see it when she got her DNA results. Just for herself, not to prove it to anyone else, thought throwing the bet back at DT had to be satisfying. I know I would be proud to be Native American, even just a little.

I had mine done last year and was fascinated to learn that I have an ancestor from Finland. I never knew it, and neither did anyone in my family. Makes me want to go there. Otherwise I’m just Polish. My grandmother’s family has a coat of arms from way back, though they were poor as dirt by the time my mother came along.

The Dolezal thing is just a bit weird. I guess if it made her happy to pretend in her private life, that’s one thing, and didn’t harm anyone. But to put one over on so many people for so long, that was just plain deception. Especially where she used it for her work and public persona.

I am part of a Danish community in my area. A visiting representative of the Danish government once told us we are more Danish than the Danes lol! So what does that make us? Now I'm very confused!

bpath, immigrants bring over a frozen image of their country of origin. If they continue to speak the language, it does not evolve like the language does on its native soil, the same is true for traditions and mores.

Since we are striving for accuracy here, I was struck that the translation for bupkes did not seem correct to me. I always heard it as meaning "nothing" as in it'll get you bupkies or zero or zilch. I also remembered gornisht meaning nothing and wondered if that was correct. So I went to my friend google, and found this interesting read. (if you don't want to read it,

GORNISHT does mean" nothing".

BUPKIS means" something that's worth nothing". (as in beans )Here is the link- not too long interesting article

And, per the article, neither one has any vulgar connotation.

If I can deny my DNA and claim today I am a man then why shouldn't these gals be allowed to say Today I am Chinese???

Elizabeth Warren - it was part of her family tradition. We have some tales in our family tradition that are pretty much impossible to verify, although my uncle has worked out family genealogy as far back as he could, to see if we are really related to a certain historical figure. But there's enough of a blank area there we don't really know.

The other woman... I remember reading about that when it came out, no she was either pulling wool over the eyes of others, maybe even getting to the point of self-delusion. I think she could have worked better with blacks had she come in more forthrightly about her ancestry.

Arcy, I don't think most, if any, of the transgender people will deny they were born XX or XY (the DNA part).

Go ahead, arcy. Enjoy yourself.

I too am familiar with the translation of bupkes. As far as "accuracy," the truth is often multi-faceted and complex, and sometimes 30% of one thing, 20% of another, 49% of a third and 1% of a fourth and the four variables flux over time. So which one ya gonna fixate on? (Rhetorical question). Also, two of those variables can be diametrically opposed. Scientific truth is largely statistical, in other words, how likely is something to be true, and even then, since variables flux, data can be fuzzy. So for fluxing things like gene pools and language, there's a lot of room for multiple fluxing factors. Which is why I find obsessing about the black or whiteness of such things unproductive. As in something that's being noticed, but not worth beans. Largely the premise of the "Seinfeld" sitcom. But people argue about bupkes all the time, often to avoid dealing with more substantive issues. It's something I've had to learn to walk away from in my own family and in my social interactions. Soon as I start to smell goat turds I walk away.

What do you think?

Arcy, I really hope you don't express these opinions around the kids you work with. I believe it is damaging to LGBTQ kids' mental health to be subjected to your unfortunately common worldview.

Honestly I think it's a little embarrassing for Elizabeth Warren to have listed herself as a native american faculty member. It sounds like she oversold her heritage to me. It's always a little cringey when people overstate indigenous heritage especially when they don't have to deal with the colonial legacy and virulent racism First Nations people unfortunately face every day. Our most recent famous example here is Joseph Boyden, author of Three Day Road. Ugh, how embarrassing! Of course he sold a lot of books and won a lot of prizes with this misrepresentation.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/books-and-media/joseph-boyden/article35881215/

I look very Jewish/German and my sister looks 100% Eastern European so I was surprised to have zero Jewish/German ancestry through 23andme. Basically boring stuff (mostly UK).

I can understand why Elizabeth Warren, after hearing stories while growing up, would be proud to have some bit of Native American heritage, however small, and I’m sure she was glad to see it when she got her DNA results. Just for herself, not to prove it to anyone else, thought throwing the bet back at DT had to be satisfying. I know I would be proud to be Native American, even just a little.

Exactly. Like so many others, I grew up believing that my great-grandmother's darker coloration and high cheekbones were due to Cherokee ancestry. Still don't know if there was any truth to that claim, but it was a point of pride and I too would be extremely pleased to know that I had some Native American blood flowing through my veins, no matter how small an amount.

To understand the hurt Native Americans feel, you have to understand the frequency of people not associated much with Native American ancestry or culture in a deep way, appropriating it for notoriety. Famous examples include Hyemeyosts Storm, author of several books on supposed Cheyenne cosmology and shamanic teachings, Grey Owl, supposed Ojibwa author and noted conservationist was really Archibald Belaney, from England, the "crying Indian" commercial actor known as "Chief Iron Eyes Cody" was actually Espera Oscar de Corti, of Italian American descent, and "The Education of Little Tree" which was supposed to be a true story about a Cherokee boy, and was written by "white supremacist" KKK member Asa Earl (aka "Forrest") Carter. I became familiar with this phenomenon early on in my career because I worked for the YMCA and other similar camps and it was a topic of professional discussion, what was the line between drawing from a culture's inspiration, and being disrespectful or appropriating something improperly? As with most human endeavors, different people draw the line in different spots. It's the same with any culture I would imagine. Robo that article on Boyden was fascinating and mirrors some of my own experience with trying to suss out what is cultural authenticity. But playing on people's mystical ideas of what native is, well . . . the pay is good, just ask Disney.

Having said that, I think Dr. Warren's comments were more along the lines of something she thought interesting about her family history, not cultural appropriation in its most vile form. However, there are people who are extremely interested in "blood" issues and genetic and cultural heritage and they are the people DT is playing to by bringing this up again and again. This minutia of culture is their daily bean soup. She should have stayed away from the topic. Don't feed the beast.

I have a similar "tribal" background that some people are fascinated with because of its supposed "special" status. I find people worrying about whether it is OK to claim to be Jewish if you're not of Jewish ancestry interesting, but largely not worth the time debating with people, ideas are so ingrained on either side that it is easy to offend. What is a "real" Jew? Jews don't even agree, so I certainly am not going there. But I once was in a discussion with someone who claimed to be Jewish because she was a "Messianic Jew" and to me, she sounded clueless on many topics, not just Judaism . . . but who am I to judge?? Which reminds me of a joke relating to this topic. I have found however, that any religion can be substituted in the joke, although I am not sure if it is as funny, but what do I know?

So an aged and highly venerated rabbi lays dying, and at his bedside are his many students. They are standing at the bedside with the smarter, more learned ones at the head of the bed, and the less learned ones at the foot of the bed. They are all gathered there trying to make sure that they don't miss a single pearl of wisdom that might be left in their teacher. The rabbi is close to drawing his last breath and whispers softly, "Life is a river." The students at the head of the bed hear him and nod wisely but the ones at the foot of the bed can't hear what he said. So the ones at the head of the bed pass this pearl of wisdom on down the line of students, "He said 'Life is a river'" on and on to the end. Finally a less wise student at the foot of the bed calls out "Rabbi, I don't understand, what do you mean 'Life is a river?'" And just upon drawing his last breath the rabbi exclaims with shoulders shrugged in best Jewish comedian stereotypical fashion, "OK, so maybe it's not a river!"

Link to a more profane ecumenical version of the joke, https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/494909-let-me-tell-you-a-joke-rora-said-mujo-wakes

I completely understand Elizabeth Warren thinking she was Indian. So many people do. I'd believe my mom if she told me stories of my ancestors, wouldn't you?

Rachel Dolezal OTOH needs help.

Now tell me if you'd be shocked if this happened to you. Small backstory. My parents were both from southern Virginia, and some time after they married they moved to Oklahoma. (Why mom and dad, WHY??)

Dad was an only child. My mom was orphaned when she was about 4 and grew up in an orphanage in VA. The only thing she can remember about her parents was that her dad hid his whisky in the ground & remembering her mother all in white because she was in a hospital for TB patients. That's it, nothing more.

Mom and dad both had blue eye's. Mom had light hair and blue eye's and her twin sister had black hair and brown eye's. I have light hair and green eye's. I just figured we were of European decent. Never did I think I had Indian blood in me because my whole family is in Virginia.

A few years ago I posted the only picture taken of my maternal grandmother on Facebook after I hooked up with my cousins in VA. We all shared pictures. Mom had a lot of sisters and one brother.

One day a cousin said our grandmother was full blood Indian. I said no way. "Way" he said. :)

Tuscarora from the Carolina's. Take a look at this link

There is a group of pictures on the right. The lady on the top right looks a lot like my grandmother. HOWEVER...my grandmother was wearing a hat in her picture hiding her hair. I'm going to see if I can post that picture of her.

I'm a quarter Indian. I'm still in shock.

The kicker? My mom knew the whole time and never told me. She died about 8 years ago. All of my cousins knew it but me. I have to wonder if she was ashamed and if there was a stigma back then?

Here's a picture of my grandmother.

apropos of nothing, Oakley she is so beautiful!

Thank you Mtn. I have her picture along with my other grandmother who had also passed away before I was born, on a shelf in my bedroom. There are times I actually talk to them.

I don't even know her maiden name. When I get to Heaven I'm going to chew out my mother. lol How can she keep something so important to ME a secret??

Oakley, thanks for sharing your story And the photograph of your beautiful grandmother.

Family histories and genealogy can be very interesting and surprising. One of my "greats" did a lot of foundation work that another family member picked up and added to, then did the genealogy for another side of our family. There have been some interesting surprises, and it can be another way of learning more about history. Some family histories can be very sad.

I meant t say that Sen. Elizabeth Warren was not attempting to qualify for membership in any Native American nation or group; she was, like a good many other American's repeating family lore. She should not give DJT the time of day. He's an intentional flamethrower and lies about things that can easily be disproved or fact-checked.

From all I have known of this issue, Warren did not use any ancestry claim, Native American or otherwise, to gain favor or position. It was anecdotal and something of interest. I have heard she never claimed to be Native American in job applications -- that Harvard made an issue of it -- for their benefit, so they could claim to have a minority woman in a tenured position. That's really stretching it if the only relation is one or two people generations ago. I always understood that there was a 1/8th minimum to claiming a status, though I don't know if that is specific to some applications I have seen or an accepted standard. Sounds more like some old white guys patting themselves on the back for their great deed than her trying to advance anything. If you'd ever met her, you would not feel she needed any help. She has always been recognized as one of the smartest and most articulate people in the room. She is so unlike DJT -- she is so factual, so articulate, so knowledgable and so reasoned. You may not be prepared to agree with the actions she proposes, but you sure ought to listen. Not because of who her ancestors were, but because of who she is. And that is as it should be.