Thank you so much, Kim G. This is exactly the insight I was hoping for. We were already pretty interested in a Miele CSO for other cooking uses and that sounds like it's the better bet for bread baking, even though of course they are much smaller. We may still get a Miele 30" to match the look but could save some money by not springing for the steam injected version. Thanks again for your generous reply.

Update: We ended up getting both a Miele CSO and the larger 30" convection oven with Moisture Plus, just like Kim G :-) The ovens just went operational this weekend and so far I've just used the CSO for bread. I like how much control the CSO provides over steam and I think that will be my go-to for everyday bread baking. I will eventually try the Moisture Plus "burst of steam" feature in the larger oven, especially if I need to make a lot of bread at once, but we mainly got that model for other reasons. The manual for the 30" oven says that each burst of steam takes 5 to 8 minutes but as Kim notes, there's no real insight into how humid it really gets (and you won't see the steam unless you open the door). Many thanks to Kim for helping with the purchase decision earlier this year. I'll update this post when I have a chance to try bread in the larger oven.

I have a Miele 30" Convection M Touch oven with steam injection (H 6880 BP) and have used it to bake artisan sourdough loaves for the last 4 years. I just found this thread and the CSO threads. I had looked for info when I first started, but didn't find anything, so just winged it. I bake using the Moisture Plus function programing 3 bursts of steam controlled manually. I preheat the oven to 400F. The loaf is on parchment paper in a half sheet pan (I just bought a baking steel and will try it out next week). Once the oven comes to temperature, I put the sheet pan in the oven, shut the door quickly and inject the first burst of steam. I manually inject the 2nd and 3rd bursts of steam immediately as soon as the oven lets me do it. It's approximately 4 minutes between injections. After the last burst is completed, the loaf continues to bake. My loaves are typically ~700g and bake in 35 minutes, so roughly half the bake is under steam and the 2nd half is not. The oven continuously has a fan on in this mode and it seems like it is sufficiently dry. I really like the way the loaves come out. I've tried baking at a higher temp of 475F which is the highest the oven will go in the Moisture Plus setting and the loaf got too dark too fast. 400F seems about right. The photo below is a sourdough loaf that is 40% whole wheat plus a few % of rye flour.

I called customer service and tried to get some information on what is happening during the preprogrammed bread cycles for Miele bread recipes. They could not help me at all. But the process I using as describe above works well. I haven't tried using less steam. The crust is crisp and chewy.

Hey Eric, I'm looking into similar options on my side as well -- did you ever try baking bread in the larger oven with Moisture Plus?

Hi Jared, I've only done pan loaves in the larger oven using Moisture Plus, since I get much heavier and more controllable steam with the CSO. They've turned out well, but pan loaves don't usually need as much steam (and it's not even needed for enriched pan loaves if you want a soft crust on them). The Moisture Plus feature does a very nice job on roasting meats and vegetables but the amount of steam is modest compared to the CSO. My guess is you'd get better bread results in a Dutch Oven in that oven. That said, we absolutely love our CSO, yes for bread but for so many other things. It's really our daily go-to oven.

thanks for the response Eric! which CSO did you get? I just returned the Thermador one which I just got lackluster results from. also did you go the full plumbed route or water tank?

We got the Miele CSO and sprang for the plumbed version. I have to say, though it was pricey, it's wonderful not to have to fill the tank each time. We do love the oven.

Hi Eric I ended up getting the Miele steam oven and am about to bake my first sourdough loaf in it. Do you recommend a baking mode / steam cadence for maximizing oven spring? I have a baking steel and cast iron pan, was thinking of using surround at 435 with back to back manual steam injections for the first 20 minutes to replicate the Dutch oven method I was using before, but thought I'd ask an expert!

Hi Jared, yes that should work and it’s the simplest method. You might (carefully) open the door briefly a few minutes after the manual steam bursts to quickly vent the stream. The more complex method, which may produce somewhat more steam, is to program a multi-step bake in combination mode, starting with 100% moisture for the desired number of minutes, followed by 0% for the remaining time, using Surround as the heating mode. You can save the program as a Favorite. You will want to do a manual preheat with no steam for this method unless you know your timing exactly for loading the bread. But I would suggest starting with the simpler manual method and see if you like the results. Two caveats: the temperature in the CSO isn’t as high as you can get in the Dutch Oven method, so crusts will usually not be as dramatic. And keep an eye on the top of the loaf in Surround mode, which uses both the top and bottom heating elements. If it’s overbrowning before the bread is done you can switch to regular old Bake mode for bottom heat only. I usually don’t have problems with it but sometimes need to make the switch, depending on the bread. Enjoy!

I finally (long story) replaced older 30" Miele double ovens with the H6880 BP 30" double ovens (after swearing that I would NEVER buy Miele again!). The top oven is plumbed for steam, and I have to admit that so far I am loving the "Moisture Plus" feature.

I am a serious bread baker, and have been producing about 3-4 authentic(-ish) French baguettes every week, to the surprise and delight of family and friends -- including two really-French friends, who have been astonished at the authenticity of the baguettes' crusts. I have also experienced excellent results with rye bread (onion rye is very popular), plain old yeast rolls (which do not require steam), and Anadama bread, among other offerings. But the "true" French baguettes are the stars of the show.

My only complaint is this: I have found that for the baguettes (and for these only) I have to "cheat" the Masterchef program; I have to fight with the Masterchef pre-sets! The crust "darkness" gauge/bar must always be on the LIGHTEST POSSIBLE setting, and even at that the resulting crust is still just barely-barely light enough. (Any browner a crust, and I would consider the result to be borderline burned.) And, here's the real catch: I have to take the loaves out of the oven a full eleven minutes before the official end of the Masterchef program.

I would be happy to come up with my own version of this "Masterchef" program, and set it as a "Favorite," by using the manual steam fature and whatever combination[s] of cooking mode, temperature[s], and time will produce the same end result as does the Masterchef program. But so far, my own experiments haven't worked as well as does the simple expedient of using the Miele pre-programmed Masterchef "baguette" setting, minus eleven minutes of cooking time.

The problem? While it is possible to ADD cooking time to a "Masterchef" program, I have searched and asked in vain to find a way to be able to SUBTRACT cooking time from an automatic, pre-fab "Masterchef" program. And it's a damned nuisance to hang around the kitchen to catch the program before it over-bakes the baguettes, every time.

Does anyone know a work-around? A way to force a Masterchef pre-set program to REDUCE the programmed baking time?

(Posting this as both a reply to a relevant thread and as a stand-alone question.)

Any help would be most gratefully accepted!

Hi Janean, coincidentally, I just baked sourdough baguettes in the Miele H6880 BP for the first time two weeks ago. I did not use the Masterchef program. I followed the recipe on King Arthur Baking for "Artisan Sourdough Baguettes" (https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/videos/artisan-bread/artisan-sourdough-baguettes). For the bake I set the oven for Moisture Plus at 475 deg (the highest it will go) and one manual burst of steam. I preheated the oven for 45 minutes with a baking steel on the rack at Level 3 in the oven. I had three baguettes on parchment paper on a peel and slid them on to the baking steel. I manually applied the burst of steam immediately after closing the oven door. I baked the baguettes for 15 minutes. The internal temp of the baguettes were 212 deg when I removed them from the oven. I achieved a crackling crust and a great crumb. I need some practice on shaping, but was pleased with my first attempt since I typically bake sourdough, whole grain breads.

I have found that the Masterchef programs are not flexible and even the customer service people don't know much about them. The manual settings allow for a lot of flexibility and experimentation.

Hi, nzeihlce --

Thank you for this response! It is quite helpful, and is consistent with my own understanding/information -- such as that Miele customer service doesn't actually know much about the inner workings of their Masterchef program, and also such as the likely range of oven temperatures in order to produce best results of crusty artisan breads. (Gotta love King Arthur!)

I really appreciate your describing the specifics of how you have achieved your crust (and even info re the inner temperature of your bread!). I will say that the Masterchef program for "baguettes," when used with my own recipe for French bread, produces a truly excellent crumb, one that shows what the French call a "beard" (slightly spiky bread on each side, when pulled apart) -- airy and tender and quite delicious -- although, because it is true French bread, the baguettes begin to go stale after not much more than 24 hours. (No worries, though; the baguettes generally don't survive the hungry masses much beyond 12 hours, at best!)

It is quite possible that if I used the official recipe provided by Miele for baguettes (a recipe not terribly different from my own, but I tried the official Miele recipe once and found that I prefer mine), the Masterchef program's cooking duration would not require my fiddling with it. All the same, I will stick with my own (very simple) baguette recipe, because it is just so yummy and so very authentic.

Several good recipes (neither mine nor Miele's) for baguettes call for baking at a high oven temperature initially, plus steam, and then for the temperature to be reduced after a few minutes. I have tried that, with decent results. I wish I knew whether the Masterchef program uses a consistent oven temperature as the baguettes bake, or whether the temperature changes. There IS an initial proofing phase before the steam and the baking begin. Despite my experimentation, baguettes that I bake using the Masterchef program (duration reduced by eleven minutes) remain, so far, the "gold standard" for me. I simply want to make the reduced baking time automatic!

You mention shaping your own loaves: I know that sourdough is a different animal than is a white-bread baguette -- but have you tried using a baker's couche? (May not be suitable for sourdough?) That has been critical in my own baguette-making process. I use a three-loaf couche. You can find one easily in a 15-inch length, and (with significant effort) it is also possible to find a couche in longer lengths. I place the dough in the couche, on top of the Miele perfect-clean pan, for its final rise, and bake the loaves as-is (on top of the perfect-clean pan, shelf level 3, as you note) after the final rising. (This "final rise" is a 20-minute proof of the shaped loaves in the couche at 80 degrees Fahrenheit, even before I place the risen dough in the top oven and start the Masterchef program, which itself includes a short proofing stage, as described.)

THANK YOU for your post, here. It is helpful!!

Hi Janean, you are welcome!

My understanding is a couche is fabric (usually linen) that is used during the final proof after the loaves are formed so they maintain their shape during proofing. You can see one on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Professional-Bakers-Couche-France/dp/B06XXXQVNZ/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2HAXLMXCC6SU&keywords=bakers+couche&qid=1640832790&sprefix=bakers+couche%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-5 Is the "couche" that you describe a baking pan specifically for baguettes? I very much prefer to bake on a baking steel. The oven spring and crumb from the steel is really superb. It does make the bread bake faster because of the greater heat transfer from the preheated steel. If you watch the video from King Arthur I referenced above, you'll see the use of the linen couche. I don't think that the sourdough component of the dough makes any difference in the shaping. Sourdough primarily affects the flavor. My first attempt at baguettes didn't have nicely pointed ends. The middle section was fine, but the ends were a bit sad looking. I just need practice. I used a linen couche to contain the formed loaves as they went through the final proof and a baguette transfer peel to place the fully proofed baguettes on parchment on top of the baker's peel. No baking pan needed.

I like knowing what's going on during the bake, so I doubt I will ever use the Masterchef programs. I've been very happy with how my bakes have gone for a variety of different breads (pumpernickel, anadama, walnut whole wheat, whole wheat and rye), all sourdough. Most of these bread bake at 400 deg with three manual, bursts of steam at the very beginning of the bake. Total baking time is 30 minutes, except for the pumpernickel which bakes at a lower temp for longer. Sorry, I don't know how to shorten the bake time for the Masterchef program. My guess is that you can't.

Good luck!

nzeihlce --

A baker's couche can be either the linen that you describe OR a pan that is shaped with "tunnels." The one I use is the metal pan with "tunnels." The pan keeps the baguettes from "sagging" too much on the sides (flattening out) as the loaves rise and then as they bake. You can easily obtain a couche that holds anywhere from one to four or even five loaves. Two or three is typical. (I use a three-loaf couche.) A good one doesn't even require more than a rinse after use; no scrubbing.

Link to: The baker's couche that I purchased

Thanks again for your help!!

Fun fact: Those "nicely pointed ends" on a loaf for which the ends ("heels") are "pointy" and much narrower than the loaf itself (baguettes, ciabatta, etc.) have an interesting name, the origin of which is in mild dispute. The French call that pointy, slightly rolled bit "le nez du Pape," and it is considered a choice bit of the loaf. There is also a fatty end bit of roast poultry that goes by "le nez du Pape." The name is also used occasionally in English, and is a direct translation: "The Pope's nose." Again, the origin is unclear, as is the matter of whether this is a compliment (to the choice bit) or is some kind of sly insult to the Pope.

Has there been any progress made in the collective knowledge regarding Miele's MasterChef (not MasterChef +) temperature, humidity, and program steps? I'm especially interested as it relates to baking bread. I tried the "Rye mix bread" for sourdough, but it seems to barely introduce humidity at 50% for 5 minutes before going into a 0% for the remainder of the cycle. I would think you would want more humidity than that for a longer period of time.

To find out what temps a MasterChef program is using, you could monitor the oven's temperature by using a Thermoworks probe thermometer like Dot (or now, for $24 more, you can get one with Bluetooth, which would be awesome), plus a grate clip to hold the probe in the airspace of the oven. I use a Dot plus grate clip to monitor the internal temp of my 30-year-old Whirlpool oven, which swings 80 degrees (!) around a target temp (which explains why it's so hard to get consistent results with cakes).

Now that I'm accustomed to knowing the accurate temperature of the air in the oven at all times, I can't imagine not knowing it. I'll probably still have a Dot snaking into my new oven, if I could ever get myself to decide which one to buy.

Janean,

I, too, have the Moisture Plus feature on my 6780 double oven. I bake bread several times a week and have never bothered with the pre-programmed procedures primarily because their settings are, as you note, fairly opaque. I get the impression from the documentation that I could design my own routines with timed temperature changes and switched modes, but I doubt I’ll ever go there as i find much of the Miele approach to software design exceedingly modal (too many OKs!) annoying plus I rarely bake exactly similar batch sizes, numbers of loaves, etc etc.

For lean breads like sourdough batards, baguettes, epis, ciabatta, I set the Moisture Plus mode for a single manual burst of steam. I tend to preheat the oven and pizza stone to 500-550 using the Surround Bake mode (upper and lower heating elements), then switch over to the Moisture Plus mode at 450-475 when I’m ready to bake.

Depending on the type of bread and desired browning, I might further reduce temperature after the first 15-20 minutes. I think you’d do well to follow King Arthur’s heat guidelines…

For enriched breads like sandwich loaves, croissants and brioches, I skip the steam and use regular convection, usually at much lower temperature….350-375.

The Moisture Plus feature has worked great so far. Saves me all the risky logistics of extra pans, pouring boiling water into those 500 degree pans, then removing the hot pans partway through the bake… I should add that I simply love the proof function. My lower oven has proofed more bread than it’s baked.

May the yeast be with you,

Phil

Phil -- This is helpful !! Thanks! I may well try some version of these methods.

Most annoying that proofing WITH steam is available ONLY with the pre-programmed features! How very strange!! Why shouldn't I be able to proof with steam outside of their "designer" programs?

Anyway -- thannk you for the detailed and thoughtful response.

I do love what the ovens can do, when they do it. But wish that I could customize their operation better!

TX --

-- Janean

@Kim G and @eric02138, similar to both of you I have ordered the Miele XXL plumbed in CSO and am so excited to receive the appliance that I plan to use multiple times a day. I'd like to pair one of the 30" standard ovens below the steam oven, but am still torn about whether or not I "need" the moisture plus option.

I am not a big bread baker, but I do love to bake muffins, cakes, cupcakes, pizza, etc. Have you found moisture plus to be a big benefit with these items as well? Are there other baking/cooking benefits you have discovered with the steam (keeping in mind I will also have the CSO)?

@eric02138, you mentioned you went with the moisture control option due to other benefits of this oven as well. What are the other benefits you discovered?

Also, do you like the convection system in this oven? I was looking at a Wolf model and it had blowers in the back and the sides and I liked that. I'm hoping the Miele convection system also works very well.

Thank you both so much for your input! @Kim G, I owe you a big thanks as well, as you've helped me with all of my appliances :).

I'm curious if any of you who have Moisture Plus CO can see the steam injection visually?

We just had our CSO (DGC7785) and CO (H7780) installed and as I'm running the initial setup for the CO with automatic steam injection I am not seeing any steam at all. I hear what sounds like the pump intaking the water and some bubbling that sounds like the steam generator is working - but not seeing anything in the oven cavity.

I tried doing manual injection as well and same thing - no moisture on glass inside or visual of steam being released despite having my face right in front of oven looking at the release port for the steam.

Miele is sending a tech out next week but figured I'd check here first if I am missing something!

So i bake several times a week, often with the Moisture Plus function. i can definitely hear the steam injection but i can’t say that I see much. If i open the oven even several mminutes after the ”steam active” message goes away, my glasses get fogged by residual steam.

Suggest you set up a moisture plus session, then open the oven soon after the “steam active” message appears. You should be able to tell. Miele probably won’t suggest this, but I would not expect any more dangerous situation than what you faced when you were pouring boiling water into a hot pan back in the bad old days…

Good luck,

Phil

@Blue Tierney - Thanks! I did try that just now and I am really only hearing a slight attempt at the unit sucking water in - nothing visually or sound of steam being injected and I opened oven a minute or so after I started the burst and no fogging (with oven at 275)

As noted above, I own the Miele 30" Convection Double Ovens (H 6880 BP). I can definitely see steam/fogging when I turn on the oven light during "steaming."

I can't see the steam in the oven when I use a manual setting for injecting steam, but there is definitely moisture in the oven (oven temp is 425). I hear a whooshing sound when the steam is being injected. My baking steel has markings on it after I finish baking bread that show where flour has collected on drops of moisture. When the oven is opened (very briefly) after the screen shows that steam injection is done, my glasses fog. Careful when opening the oven door after injecting with steam. The steam is not good for the electronics that get blasted as the oven door is opened.

Yea it seems odd to me - not expecting the level of steam from the CSO above it but seems like there is no moisture
Wondering if water line was partially kinked on install or something similar as the CSO is on the same valve and works fine
Guess I’ll find out next week when the tech shows up!

On a cooking related note… it seems like the consensus is the CSO is more or less a better option for most breads (wife enjoys baking and regularly does sourdough and looking to branch out into other types)

Where does the CO/Moisture Plus really shine? Is it doing roasts / larger volumes of bread/baking? Originally thought the higher potential baking temp would make it more ideal for breads of some kinds (and pizzas as well)

@Mr Kyle I have the same pairing - Miele CSO on top and the CO/Moisture plus 30" oven under it. When Moisture Plus is doing a "burst of steam" I don't see any steam entering the oven and the glass door doesn't even fog up. I do get a modest amount of condensation and release of steam into the room if I open the door. As you note, the CO doesn't generate anything near the level of heavy steam the CSO is capable of; I think it as a steam-augmentation feature but not really steam injection.

@eric02138 Nice!

What are your typical uses for both the CSO/CO when baking/cooking? Originally the Miele rep sold us on getting the CO Moisture Plus for doing true sourdoughs that required higher temperatures than the CSO could get to, as well as home made pizzas that we do with the sourdough

Authenic French-style baguettes!

@Mr Kyle I'm also interested in your question. In my home we have a non Miele 30" convection oven and a 24" Miele CSO. We end up using the Miele CSO for most cooking because it's more energy efficient with the use of space and does most everything the CO does and more.

We end up using the larger 30" oven (without steam injection) for when we want to do homemade Neapolitan pizzas on a pizza steel, and for baking two sourdough loaves at a time (crockpot method or wetted mixing bowl on top method), which is our typical use case. Essentially, it's used 10% of the time.

We sometimes use the MagicChef settings when we know what's going on with time, temperature, and humidity level for each step. Miele seems to have done away with sharing that information in recent ovens that have MagicChef Plus, so we would be less inclined to get something new from them.

@Mr Kyle The CSO is the workhorse of the kitchen. It does make good crusty breads even at the max temp of 435F but we use it just as much for reheating leftovers and roasting potatoes/vegetables with partial steam, egg dishes, steaming hard cooked eggs, and more - it's nearly limitless. We use the CO in Moisture Plus for roasting splattery things like chickens and turkeys because the CSO is harder to clean, for pizzas (no steam), and for larger production of enriched pan breads where heavy steam is not required. I haven't tried it much for lean-dough crusty breads.

I just had my Miele CSO and CO installed a couple of days ago. (6000 series, not the new 7000 series). I see not steam at all during ”burst of steam” on the CO. I’m thinking of calling Miele about it. But my really big issue is the amount of noise the pump makes in the CSO in Steam mode. It’s LOUD. I immediately visited my local Miele Experience Center so I could hear what their oven sounds like. Unfortunately they only have the new 7000 series and although you can hear the pump it’s fairly quiet. I asked about the older one and she said ”it was louder than the new one and people complained about it”. What is this group’s experience with the level of noise from the CSO pump?

@Vicki OBriant In the CO, most people, including me, don't see any steam in the "burst of steam" in Moisture Plus mode (although if you open the door it should condense at least a little). In the CSO which pumps in a lot more steam than the CO, steam is generally more visible through the door if the temperature isn't too high ( hotter air invisibly holds more moisture). As to noise, the steam pump in my CSO 6000 series is not what I'd call quiet, in that I can certainly hear it in the next room, but it doesn't bother me either. I don't have anything to compare it to but I've never considered it a problem.

The pump in our 7000 series CSO is what I’d call a humming / droning sound when going - definitely noticeable but it isn’t annoyingly loud