Vaporvac, I have been told by several people that Caldwell Pink and Pink Pet are the same rose too..... however, when I purchased my Caldwell Pink, I did so from Chamblees several years ago. They had both roses listed for sale, and they were described differently. I wanted both, but they were out of Pink Pet.

So I don't know if they had two separate roses or if one of the roses was really something else. But as I said they had it listed as two different plants....

Sharon

Yes. I remember that Chamblees sold it. I bought my grafted one from Menard's as CP and then ID'd my cuttings from that. The cuttings i was given ,(but forgot to mark) were Pink Pet. Do you see any difference between yours or are the PPs still too young?

I will try acidifying my Poseidon as well. It is not doing well in a pot.

pretty jessica is not growing well in my clay soil. I potted her up in rich potting soil with pine fines and perlite. I think I remember reading Paul Barden say she needed the best soil. Her last remaining cane is finally leaving out now.

I think the only roses I have that is really flourishing in my clay soil seems to be Awakenigng, Alchymist and Mme Anistette And So.m breueiol. Everyone else Is not blooming as much as same roses in other people’s gardens.

I will respond to your comments Turturro when I come back from my run. However I am curious for how long you have had pretty Jessica and your other roses as well.

Totoro: Pretty Jessica is low-thorn and the pics. show DARK-GREEN leaves (which prefer higher pH). Poseidon has LIGHT GREEN leaves, same with Twilight zone, and both LOVE TONS OF ACIDIC RAIN. Both are low-thorn and both need LOAMY SOIL, and dislike sticky clay.

Poseidon is very big and spreading .. I could not contain its growth in pot for 2-months when first bought as tiny-own-root, so I planted in my clay made fluffy with 1 bag of coarse sand, plus red lava rock at bottom to neutralize the tons of acidic rain it receives under the rain spout.

Sharon: Since you have sandy soil ... Val who works for Rose Petals Nursery in Florida .. she also gardens in sand. Many years ago I asked Val to list the OWN-ROOT roses that do well in her high-rain (68 inch of rain per year) and sandy soil, and Val took the time to list the roses that do well in her sandy & high rain Florida, see below link:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3959128/roses-on-clay-vs-sand-in-hot-climates-and-cold-climates#n=48

From the above link, Val in sandy soil mentioned Heritage and Lilian Austin do well for her. But Multiflora does not (prefers cooler climate), and surprisingly Rugosa doesn't do well for her due to the drastic temp. change in Florida that cracks the root in winter. She plants her own-root roses MUCH HIGHER above ground so she can add stuff on top. In contrast, I have to plant my roses 4 inch. below ground to survive my zone 5 winter.

Re-post the info. for my alkaline clay, pH 7.7 with 40" of rain: "The top performers in my heavy alkaline clay are: 1) Marie Pavie 2) French Romantica like Bolero, Sweet Mademoiselle, Frederic Mistral, Liv Tyler 3) Dark-green leaves Austin roses: Evelyn, James Galway, Crown Princess Magareta 4) Dark-green leaves like Betty White and Stephen Big Purple 5) Glossy leaves like Flower Carpet Coral 6) Dark-green and glossy foliage like Pat Austin.

The above are my top performers. My favorites are top-scents but TROUBLESOME like Eglantyne, Sharifa Asma, Jude the Obscure, Comte de Chambord .. these pale leaves gave me hell, but I pamper them just for the scent." StrawChicago, zone 5.

Valrose Florida zone 8b posted in below link on the own root varieties that do well in her sandy soil, hot & high-rain Florida:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3959128/roses-on-clay-vs-sand-in-hot-climates-and-cold-climates#n=48

"Top Performers for me are

1. Any tea rose, my top favorites are Mrs B.R. Cant, Mrs. Dudley Cross and Rosette Delizy
2. Most China roses, I like Louis Phillipe and Mutablilis the best
3. Most Noisettes I like Lamarque, Reve d'Or, Crepuscule, Champney's Pink Cluster
4. Hybrid Musk Rose: Most do well Gartendirektor Otto Linne, Buff Beauty, Prosperity, Mozart are favorites
5. Polyanthas: These two do well: Pink Pet, Perle d'Or and Cecil Brunner Spray
6. Belinda's Dream
7. Buck roses are still being trialed but I like Polonaise, Quietness, Aunt Honey, Earth Song and American Legacy
8. Many Kordes, both old and new Lions Fairy Tale, Rosarium Uetersen, Shreveport, Westerland
9. Some odd and sundries: Elina, Marco Polo, Birthday Girl, Lafter, Fields of the Woods, Mystic Beauty
10. My best for scents are Heritage, Clotilde Soupert ( though she tends to ball), Comte de Chambord..
11. Other roses that Val mentioned in the below link: Barrone Henriette de Snoy. Handles the heat, very clean and thornless, Dame de Coeur. It is very prolific, clean and doesn't mind the heat. Cecile Brunner is a very vigorous and sweet smelling rose. Old Rose, Cl Devoniensis. " Valrose in sandy & high rain zone 8b Florida.

Forgot to mention in my list earlier that my favorite miniature Apricot Twist has no fragrance and fades to cream immediately after opening in alkaline soil, but after adding horse manure to the soil and watering in well, the blooms are staying deep apricot and the fragrance is sweet and fruity.

My absolute worst rose in a sunny spot with loamy soil and perfect drainage is Caroline Hunt, a Pioneer rose. It was planted last year and sulked, but gave a lovely flush this spring even while riddled with BS. It hasn't grown back a leaf yet or rebloomed. I wish I knew what it needed. Perhaps a less well-draining soil? I don't know, but it's annoying me and usually I'm very forgiving of my rose's faults. So far it has barely a redeeming feature. I'd love to hear if anyone else has experience with this one.

Vaporvac: I look up the lineage of Caroline Hunt in HMF: consists of 'Francis Dubreuil', 'Carefree Beauty' and 'Old Blush'. Carefree Beauty is Earthkind & drought-tolerant & doesn't like too much rain. Old blush is China which likes dry & alkaline. My Francis Dubreuil is blackspot-prone in its 9th-year as own-root. I stay away from China roses: My Gruss an Teplitz is hybrid china and has the worst blackspot in my garden during acidic rain. Gruss is also the parent of Dr.Huey-rootstock which is prone to diseases in acidic rain.

Believe it or not, in zone 5 , own root Evelyn is my best all around performer.

All the worst roses are gone , the grocery store weed fragranced mini rose that reverted back to a hideous burnt orange, sticks in my mind as all time worst.

Straw, thank you for taking the time to comment. That lineage is one of the reasons I got her. I thought couldn't go wrong as CB does fantastic here no-spray and FD is great so far. Some of my roses will BS, but quickly regrow leaves or just continue to bloom without many. CH is just a bunch of sticks. I'm going to try watering her more, something I rarely do.

hmmm. I am sad to hear that you dug up Neil.... I was hoping that you could tell me how to make mine happy.... you are my goto "rose whisperer" :) I love how you can tell me what to add to fix problems....

I have two Neil's and they hate me.... So sad. because I love the real Neil... I love his songs.... and in rose kingdom I love his stripes and his scent. I see all the praise he gets.... and I see BenT's pictures of him.... and then I see mine. He gets black spot something fierce. Last year I thought both of them were goners....

Then in the spring one perked up.... but now he is sulking once again. Both are on fortuniana and get full sun....

If you had to dig yours up then there probably isn't much hope for mine.

Sharon: Rock & roll is much better than Neil Diamond. My neighbor had Rock & Roll grafted-on-Dr.Huey, and there's zero black spots on the leaves for years, even with tons of rain. But my Neil Diamond is VERY WIMPY as own-root, plus black spot-prone with its shiny foliage. Shiny foliage needs both wetness and alkaline minerals. Rock & roll has more red stripes thus prettier. Neil Diamond is more speckled white mixed in (not pretty during rain). Rock & Roll scent is twice better than Neil Diamond and more long-lasting. They both are best grafted.

Rock & roll parents are George burns and New Zealand. New Zealand was clean with lots of blooms at rose park during RAINY late fall. Neil Diamond's parents are Rock & roll and Della Reese. I have Della Reese (grafted of Dr.Huey), its leaves are dark green (likes alkaline). Della Reese did great in a dry & alkaline spot, then I moved it to a wet spot near the rain-spout and it's a drastic decline in health. Neil Diamond isn't healthy as Rock & Roll for rainy climate. I sniffed hundreds of roses in my life, and Rock & roll's scent is way better than my Neil Diamond and Firefighter.

@strawchicago z5 amazing info. Thank you for sharing. I recently lost an Olivia rose bc i have clay soil and added potting mix to it. When I dug up the roots were covered in water. Could you explain the layering of the sand? And would leveling sand work for this purpose? I might have to dig up some of my other roses to fix the soil since they are barely growing.

CeresMer: Olivia Rose has dark green & glossy foliage .. mean it likes alkaline soil. I would test the pH of the soil first before fixing your soil (see below link to test the pH with 50 cents red cabbage and $1 distilled water). I did the same: mixing my pH 7.7 clay soil with potting soil, planted 4 bands and hybrid tea hated soaking wet clay, but Austin Wise Portia (dark-green leaves) like it.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2132487/cheapest-way-to-test-soil-ph-using-red-cabbage#n=31

Another approach is to dig wide & deep for drainage by removing all the rocks below. High Country Roses recommends a hole at 3 feet wide and 2 feet deep. Coarse leveling sand or YELLOW paver's sand is ALKALINE and it neutralizes the acidity of rain water. Water goes through sand faster than clay so it speeds up drainage.

After digging a hole 3 feet wide by 2 feet deep, I put sand at bottom, then layer clay with sand. That way air-pockets is created (roots need oxygen to grow). Sand drains faster than potting soil. Potting soil is mostly peat moss (plus lime to neutralize pH) and that makes it soaking wet.

Another approach to speed up drainage is to mix gypsum (very acidic) .. it breaks up clay, but I WOULD NOT USE IT if your clay is acidic. Same with mixing in pine-bark (pH 4), but that releases acid slowly, I won't use that if your clay is acidic. Paver's sand is safe to use since it's alkaline. Folks root roses in 1/2 coarse sand and 1/2 peat moss. Clay is even wetter than peat moss. Coarse sand is alkaline so it neutralizes the acidity of peat moss (pH 4) or the acidity of rain-soaked clay. pH of rain is 4.5 here and more acidic in the East coast.

Also the type of sand determine how fast the drainage is. Below link shows via pictures how fast water drain through 1) play sand 2) yellow silica sand or coarse sand 3) beach sand (grayish) 3) all purpose sand (with pebbles mixed in). The FASTEST drainage is yellow silica sand (coarse sand), next is beach sand, then last is all purpose sand with pebbles ... the pebbles impede drainage. Water also puddled up on top of play sand.

https://mikesbackyardnursery.com/2015/10/exactly-what-is-and-where-do-i-find-coarse-sand-for-rooting-cuttings/

Holy cow, Straw! The amount of knowledge you have!! Staggering! :)

Strawchicago,

If Posiedon hates manure as mulch, what do you mulch with.

Thanks

Sharon

Sharon: Low-thorn Poseidon doesn't like alkaline horse manure, doesn't like bio-char at pH 8.5 .. but it loves acidic rain. Since nitrogen leaches out with water, my best mulch is HIGH-NITROGEN for Poseidon such as grass clippings NPK 4-0.5-2 or alfalfa hay at NPK 4-1-2.

After hearing the science, I am surprised that I have any healthy roses.

This year I will do some soil testing.

I just want to say thank you to strawchicago for continually sharing such a wealth of knowledge in the forums!

Hear, hear! @strawchicago z5, I hope you know how greatly we appreciate your wisdom and your generosity in sharing it with us!

Ditto to the extreme!!! :) :)

Best for my alkaline sand on top of native decomposed granite (caliche), very low in nitrogen, high in potassium and phosphorus, with 12-15" rain a year, and high altitude (intense sunshine, 30 degree day/night differential, single digit humidity): Desdemona, Bishop's Castle. Ispahan is new but looks likely to be a “best”.

Worst: First Crush, Earth Angel, Madame Isaac Pereire, Madame Alfred Carriere.

There are a number of roses that do more or less okay, but those above stand out among the dozens of roses I have or have tried. I only grow own-root roses.

For zone 5, I lost at least a dozen floribundas as own-roots through the winter. Old Chamblee's catalog in Texas classified floribundas as hardy to zone 6, versus grandilora as hardy to zone 5. Floribundas have shorter growth & shorter roots and don't survive zone 5 winter. The only floribunda that survived 10 years as own-root is Old Port, but it was too small & BS fest due to wimpy roots. The 2 exceptions are Bolero and Poseidon, which are vigorous and cane-hardy.

Among my 8 bands and 6 gallon own-roots purchased this year, Felicia (hybrid musk) is the worst performer during 2 weeks of rain this July. Rain here is acidic at pH 4.5. The Old Rosarian stated that Felicia does best in full-sun for her. Found that Felicia likes alkaline clay for Lisa Adams in dry CA, and is a slow grower for others. I put my worst performer in full-sun for best growth, but the vigorous ones can be in only 4 hrs. of sun like Sweet Mademoiselles which gets to be 5' x 5' as 3rd year own-root.

Below is bouquet of best performers: Sweet M., Savannah, Lavender Crush (large & dark green leaves) is too vigorous in my heavy clay, same with CPM as 10th-year own-root (large & dark-green leaves). Peter Mayle with large & dark green leaves likes dense clay:

Wow ! that deserves a standing ovation.

I agree!! BRAVO!!! BRAVO!!! :) :)

What's particularly pleasing about it is the different sizes of blooms!! And I like the purples/lavender in the center. :) GORGEOUS!!!

Berrypie and Carol: Thank you, what are your best and worst rose in your soil type and climate? My vote for #1 most vigorous rose in heavy clay is Sweet Mademoiselle, now at 5' x 5' as 3rd-year own-root. Below pic. was taken last fall as 2nd-year own-root with 40+ buds/blooms in 4 hrs. of sun:

We had a drought late fall 2020: note the lowest leaves turn yellow, Sweet M. is wide-spreading bush & need lots of space and water. It's a low-thorn water-hog like Poseidon.

My worst roses are short-own-roots with shallow roots like floribundas. At least a dozen floribunda varieties died in my zone 5. Their roots are too short to survive winter. I need TALL hybrid tea or tall grandiflora with deeper root so they won't get killed by -20 below zero in zone 5. Plus bunnies can't eat these tall roses to death.

Bathsheba and Evelyn are my best two, tied for an excellent will to live in store bought dirt

( mostly Black Gold potting mix, and Miracle Grow Performance ). My garden got robbed of it's good rich earth every time I potted up gifts, then I had to buy fake dirt to replace and fill back in the flower beds. It's slow going to haul as many bags as I can lift to bring home on the bus. Sorry to make you shudder at the thought of my amateur gardening, I am trying to get the compost going strong with coffee grounds and vegetable scraps. Another planting season has passed that i haven't gotten horse manure yet, maybe for my birthday...

It's fairly cold here in North Idaho, Zone 5 to 6 I would say though the map states it's 6 b, dream on.

I want to weed out for lack of a better term, all but the hardiest and healthiest roses even if it means farewell to so many beautiful ones.

The worst slow grower without a doubt is grafted Boscobel who also sits in the most prime location. It got off to a bad start 3 years ago with canker, I don't even want to look under the leaves at the base to see if it's sickly. A few new buds are gaining in size and I do love the small handful of big blooms Boscobel puts out, it also has one of my favorite fragrances. There are only 8 others in the garden to compete with.

Because of my tremor, I pay my son a handsome fee to take photos. He hasn't taken any lately, another photo shoot is order when the nest wave of blooms appear.

Berrypie: I admire your lugging heavy bag of soil onto the bus. I used to ask husband to fetch me horse manure for my birthday. Now I find that a HUGE $20 bag of alfalfa meal (much lighter than a 40 lb. bag of topsoil) .. can give roses the glossy shine on leaves so I don't need horse manure. Dee-lish with large leaves is my top performer as own-root, same with Tchaikosksy & Radio Times. The glossy leaves below belong to Tchaikosky. Dark-pink is Dee-lish, pink is Radio Times, and blue is Poseidon. Pic. taken today July 22. I picked 6 bouquets today .. before Japanese Beetles get to them.

Radio Times is my best & most healthy as 11th-year own-root, despite 2 weeks of heavy rain. The secret? Tons of gypsum in the planting hole for fast drainage, plus high potassium fertilizer. Pic. taken July 12. It gets only 4 hrs. of sun:

Outstanding Dee-lish Straw, and absolutely perfect color of baby pink Radio Times. I'm keeping a log of your instructions.

i must have inadvertently erased my last post when I heard the Bullydog sneaking a Planter's can of cashews from my son's room. She looked so guilty and sad

I didn't have the heart to scold her and got her some treats instead.

Straw - I love your Dee-Lish!!! You've done a great job with it!! I agree...even though I garden in pots...I like the tall roses...they seem to be able to "outgrow" my mistakes. Roses that usually do well for me are Carruth/Bedard roses. My best roses that never disappoint me are

Nicole Carol Miller - I did so much to harm it this year with my pH mistakes...but it doesn't care. The leaves are a little PMy...but it doesn't care. I also like Meilland roses...and this is one.

Bedard's Parade Day has a wonderful fragrance and is always in bloom. I had better pictures last year....another rose I've put through the wringer...it doesn't care.

Berrypie - Quite often my rose pictures are out of focus because I'm starting to fall over as I take the picture. I have to take it quickly so I can regain my balance. LOL So I understand what you're talking about. :):) Can't wait to see your next flush of roses!! Cashews are sooo tasty!! Like you said, Can't blame her for giving it a try. :)

Straw - I'm SO glad you got to the roses (for gorgeous bouquets) before the JBs could eat them. Nyaaah, nyaah to the beetles. LOL My favorite rose in the bunch is your Radio Times (pink on the left).

Carol: Your Nicole Carole Miller is THE MOST BEAUTIFUL bush ever !! I love that color, and it's on my wish-list. A friend in alkaline clay, Costa Mesa, CA loves her Nicole Carole Miller (grafted on Dr.Huey), and she has only 12" of rain per year.

Thanks, Straw!! It's the best it's ever been, and I thank you for that!! :) :)

I definitely think you should get this rose!! :) :)

Carol , i LOVE your Parade Day, it is just the cutest little bush with so many plump roses, it looks as happy as can be.

Berrypie - it's a really fulfilling rose to grow...so easy!! Bedard did a great job with hybridizing this rose!! Thank you, all the same. :) :)

Carol, I think your photos and appreciation of Parade Day have done it: the rose is on my list for next year. I have been thinking about getting into striped roses, and they have to be fragrant, so I think Parade Day will start me off on a new journey!

Oh, you're going to love it!!! :) :) Look at these pictures from last year (which I think are better)...although it was a shorter bush then.

Wow! So many flowers -- you have grown it well!

I like the growth habit of Carol's roses (grafted on multiflora) better than roses-grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Dr.Huey is a climber and roses grafted on Dr.Huey tend to be tall & leggy.

One year when it was hot & dry near 100 F, I visited Cantigny rose park (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) and roses there were taller than my 6' tall husband, with zero blooms. Saw a few blooms on their Double Delight, Gene Boerner, and Cherry parfait ... these most likely grew their own-roots above Dr.Huey-rootstock. All 3 are vigorous as own-roots.

I keep 7th-year-own-root Gene Boerner since it's thornless and the WOW factors are no thorns and fast repeat, otherwise it's a boring pink rose with zero scent. It's still a best rose for heavy clay.

Thanks, Rosesmi!! :) :)

Straw - yeesh...taller than 6 feet and no blooms? Sounds more like hedges.

Bump up this thread. I hope to learn from Nippstress in zone 5, Nebraska with loamy soil & less rain. Nahema as own-root was wimpy in my dense & alkaline clay and refused to bloom unless tons of rain. While looking at Nippstress' old posts, I found that Nahema did well for her. Nippstress is in zone 5, same with me.

However, my soil is heavy & dense black clay and roses that are wimpy for alkaline clay California are also wimpy in my soil, like own-root Felicia which died the minute I planted in my clay. Felicia is also wimpy for Debra in CA.

Felicia has Trier (hybrid multiflora) as its parent, and multiflora doesn't like dense & compact & heavy clay. Multiflora is salt-sensitive and doesn't tolerate high pH like Dr.Huey-rootstock (my tap water pH is 9). Multiflora is a cluster root and can't push through rock-hard clay like big-fat-chunky Dr.Huey-rootstock, or vigorous own-roots with thick & woody roots.

Below is multiflora-rootstock, note the thin cluster roots, NO WAY that can go through rock-hard clay which broke 2 of my shovels. The wimpiest rose in my garden was Comte de Chambord (grafted on multiflora), which was 1/3 the size of my 2 Comte as own-roots. Comte as own-root bloomed many times more than Comte grafted on multiflora. Comte own-root has thicker & woody roots that can produce acid to digest the hard minerals in my clay. Below is multiflora rootstock, note the thin cluster roots, similar to hardy snapdragon flowers:

Compared that to below thick & chunky Dr.Huey stock (more like a tree's root). This is a 1st year Dr.Huey rootstock that decayed in my wet clay. I dug up older Dr.Huey (15-year-old) that spread out 4 feet in all directions, and went through my rock-hard clay better than my steel shovel:

berrypie: bump this up to THANK YOU for listing grafted Boscobel as wimpy in your cold zone. I backed out of own-root Boscobel for my zone 5 for that reason, I got Princess Ann instead and it's very vigorous for the past 4 years, in only 4 hrs. of sun. My dislikes about Princess Ann: SUPER THORNY, plus it's only fragrant a few times out of the entire year.

My goodness!! What a beautiful bloomer!!!

Yes, incredibly pretty, even the buds look fancy.

Berrypie - I agree...the buds look gorgeous!

I find that French Romantica (Frederic Mistral, Bolero, Sweet Promise 2007, Sweet Mademoiselle, Princess Charlene de Monaco, Moonlight Romantica) are best OWN ROOT roses for my heavy black gumbo clay, hot & humid and heavy rain summer. Their roots are thick & woody and can handle my rock hard clay better.

In contrast, roses with tiny leaves or cluster-roots need light and fluffy soil (like sand or loamy) and HATE my dense clay. Below Austin Leander with cluster roots died in its 1st winter as 1st-year own-root. I miss its marvelous scent. Leander doesn't do well for Tammy in acidic red clay, east TN. Leader is best in fluffy potting soil or sandy soil. It has the best scent among my 34 own root Austin roses.

Straw - really! It's fragrance is that good. :) :) How is the growth for Leander? I like more upright roses. Beautiful blooms....mmmmm....wonderfully stuffed.

rosecanadian The growth of Leander is short & compact and it's almost thornless. It would be perfect for the pot. Below is Leander after 3 months of purchase as tiny own root from LongAgoRoses. It's a slow grower, best as grafted.

Thanks! :) :)