I would want to know what will happen to him if you say no, or for whatever reason are unable to go. Will the facility be able to provide the necessary one to one observation for him?

I would want to have a full understanding of all the recent meds he was given, side affects and if they are all compatible. Ask him if he wants to talk.

If you do go I wouldn’t say anything. Just bring something to do together that he’ll like. A board game or movie or read to him. Or go away if he tells you to. Let him know you are available to listen if he wants to talk but don’t push.

I don’t know your family dynamic at all or if there’s a lot of baggage that would make a visit awkward. I’m. my advice would be to make sure you are ok with the visit. Don’t worry about what people think if You know something would not be right for you. Just m opinion

I take care of my 91 year old mother. I’m not able to advise you for this particular situation but boy, do I feel for you.

I think I’m not quite sure about the danger to you or your family. Perhaps that’s a concern. As for what to say if you do go? These are things you have to play by ear. Sometimes you don’t have to say much of anything. Just being there says it all.

ETA. If you decide you just cannot go, don’t guilt yourself sick. Only you know the whole situation

Is there a social worker at his residence? Or a geriatric social worker available to seniors in your area through some kind of Senior Services? They might be able to provide some guidance to you and refer you to better resources.

Not knowing you or your dad or your relationship, it's difficult to suggest what would be best. But if my aging parent had tried to kill himself, I would most definitely want to talk about it and express my concern for him. If I were depressed enough to consider suicide, I would think having everyone pretend nothing is wrong would be devastating. "Hey, Dad, what is going on? I'm so worried about you. Tell me what led you to try to cut your wrists? What can I do to help you? I want try to help you feel better. I know this is all so hard...."

I'd want to hear something like that.

If he is in a true independent living facility first thing I would do is find him a level of care (assisted) or whatever you feel he needs. He probably needs more care than he is getting.

You definitely want to check the medications he is taking. My mother received medication from a new doctor that put her in the hospital, and during another hospital stay the hospitalist, who did not know her, prescribed a medical that her own doctor had to undo. Also, check for a UTI, they can really affect behavior.

Mind you, he has been really, really sick. It will take time to recuperate, I’m surprised they didn’t release him to recuperative care and rehab. He would get attention and be observed.

I agree with Bpath. He has been very ill, which can translate into traumatic insult to his body. I always ask what's different & he's had lots of differences ie the fall, the hospitalization, the meds he probably received & may still be prescribed, plus as was stated a possible UTI can really mess with an older person. That should definitely be checked. I also agree he might do better if he'd been discharged to a rehab nursing facility for a bit. As far as what to say to him, I would just reinforce with him all the changes he's incurred with his illness & offer lots of reassurance. Is there a gerontologist that could get involved? He cannot be left alone right now. Do you think he's just discouraged & scared, or rather having a breakdown of some kind either from the fear or something physiological. Please keep us posted & I wish him & you the best!

OMG, I am so sorry for you and for him. I would go, talk to him as much as he seems to want to (or just keep him company). I would call his Dr. and get a referral. The way you describe it, it seems out of the blue and perhaps some sort of side effect.

Should add that maybe you could say to him that you know he tried to cut his wrists & tell him that really worries you & then be quiet & see how he responds. This is hard stuff, I know...

Two weeks in the hospital, why wasn’t he discharged to rehab and recuperation?

I would want to be there with him until he can get medical/professional help. I would also want to rule out a UTI as the presentation can seem like a mental problem, instead of a UTI. And like others have said, his meds could be the cause. Also, it's my understanding that C-diff can be difficult to get rid of-you may need to keep on top of that. I'm sorry that you and your dad are having to deal with this.

I don't have any advice, but a ton of empathy. My mom went through something similar: a fall, hospitalization, contracted c-diff, back in the hospital (they had her on 3 different antibiotics), her kidneys failed (they weren't doing so well to start with), stayed in the hospital for weeks, discharged to a rehab facility for 6 months, and finally moved into the retirement home she'd signed a contract for right before this all went down (she ended up in the hospital w/ c-diff right before the planned move; fortunately the facility offered a la carte assisted living services). She lived another 5 years with 3x per week dialysis. She died last year at age 90. I think she enjoyed her years at the retirement home.

Talk to him about politics. He probably has not been keeping up with the news cycle, and there's has been a normal year's worth of political news in the past few weeks. Lots to catch him up on.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Sending you good thoughts and I hope your dad is ok.

I am thinking of you and your dad. Xo

Having lost my Dad to suicide, I would go and be with him.

It's not about what you say, it's about being there. That alone is often enough to prevent someone from taking their own life. Once there, you will respond as best you can to whatever is going on with him, but you can't know until you are there.

And definitely do have his meds checked as my father was in transition between antidepressants when he died. Also UTIs can affect one's mental status.

My cousin by marriage lost his brother to suicide. Very sad as he was on anti-depressants in the hospital, they sent him home and he couldn't afford the pills and ran out.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. Sending you thoughts of strength, courage, and comfort as you face into this difficult time.

I'm so sorry. Much good advice above. My dad threatened suicide after a very difficult combination surgery for 2 different issues, one being heart valves. A nurse explained to me at that time that with heart surgery and especially with men, the feelings of vulnerability and mortality are common. I wonder if your dad is feeling some of that given that he was so sharp and functional prior to his fall. That's a lot of independence to lose in a short period of time and he may be all too aware of what that means going forward. Definitely look into the meds. Are you concerned about what to talk about because you fear saying the wrong thing or is there more to that hesitation? Without knowing more my advice is to go see him without an agenda. Let him lead. If he seems happy to have you there and is at all communicative whether it's about his unhappiness or politics or whatever just follow his lead. If he's not willing to talk I would sit with him for a while and if he's calm in your presence then tell him you can stay and he can talk when he's ready. This is tough stuff.

I"m so sorry your dad and you are going through this. At his age the entire hospitalization and illness ordeal can be a very dangerous domino slide. There simply aren't as many physical or cognitive reserves from which to draw.

I'm not sure the suicidal ideation has the same origin as it would have for a younger person, so he may be responding that way out of the stew of pain, fear, worry and impaired cognition that he is currently experiencing. As far as monitoring him it seems to me you have two situations here: the simple physical/emotional caregiving he needs at the moment, and the enormous ongoing task of monitoring and guiding appropriate care.

The last time my MIL was hospitalized for a hip fracture (her third) she was 91 YO and clearly there was not going to be a lot of treatment done. We knew she would be transferred to a rehab facility but imagine my feelings when she called me frantic and crying hysterically one night at 10 pm to say someone was taking her away. I spoke to a nurse who told me that indeed she was being transferred by ambulance to the rehab immediately(!). After I raced to the hospital and got her calmed down and into the transport I followed by car imagining the worst only to watch her come out of the ambulance smiling because she thought she was going to a resort. 2 days later we had to make life decisions for her that ended with her going into an ALF permanently; she left her beloved home in an ambulance and never went back again. In retrospect my late night foray didn't mean a lot. My seat across from the social worker a few days after that meant everything.

I tell that story to illustrate the point: what counts most is that your dad has someone, be it you or not, to be his advocate and his representative now and going forward. Frankly the ALF is legally responsible to prevent him from harming himself in this situation. But somebody is going to have to make some tough and serious decisions about his ongoing care and treatment.

Last but not least: take care of yourself too! This stage of life is impossibly draining and sad for the caretaker.

Last but not least: take care of yourself too! This stage of life is impossibly draining and sad for the caretaker.

I am so sorry for what you and your dad are experiencing right now. Many words of wisdom and experience here upon which to draw. What runninginplace said above is so true. Take good care.

I am so very sorry. I wish you peace as you make decisions, and I too encourage you to take excellent care of yourself. Do your best with what you know in the situation, but try not to let yourself look into the chasm of guilt, which can do so much damage. I also believe runninginplace has given excellent advice.

Thank you all. He was admitted on a 72 hour hold last night. A psych nurse called me to ask about his state of mind prior to yesterday. She said they would be checking his meds and a psychiatrist will see him today. When he was discharged from the hospital, it was with home health care provided. We were in the midst of exploring an assisted living situation for him. Not sure when I will get a chance to talk to him but when I do I guess I'll just ask him what's going on and then sit back and listen.

Being hospitalized can have serious mental side-effects for the elderly. Imagine how confusing and difficult it is to lose so much control of yourself and your environment when your hearing and eyesight are not in tip top shape and the people caring for you are rushed strangers?

Here is an article from the NIH about this issue:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3255198/

My uncle of a similar age had to move into an assisted living situation after a stroke, very similar. Very difficult during this pandemic time. However, he's now able to continue his daily exercise routine and swim since the place is in FL. Was your dad liking the place before his health crisis? The main thing is for him to find some kind of activity, no matter how trivial, to give him a sense of connection. My dad is now going to physical therapy after a stint in the hospital, that has lifted his spirits. And even the neighbors who come by daily with their dog on their walk is something he likes. Try to figure out if there is something like that for your dad. I write my uncle every couple of weeks. He used to be on the computer but that's on hold for a bit so I basically send him photos and little blurbs about what we are doing, kind of like FB only on paper. Your dad might like something like that from you, since a call is all auditory . . .

Hey, BIG HUG to you Nekotish! I am in a similar boat with my dad, he gets very depressed and it's very difficult to counteract. Makes me depressed. Do what you can and let go of the rest. It's hard, and very sad. I try lots and lots of things to cheer my dad up an it's almost as if he's fighting me to not be happy despite all my efforts. I know he is just projecting his frustrations at the aging process, but it doesn't make it any easier.

I haven’t read the responses, but thought I’d post anyways because my heart goes out to you. Many years ago I worked in an assisted living home and it’s hard for everyone not just the person staying there.

I can’t advise on the treatment he needs, but what I can tell you is that while many of the people I knew functioned just fine, they simply missed their old lives. Their minds wanted them to do things that their bodies couldn’t do anymore and being dependent in the least was degrading. Getting old is not fun. Also, the hospital can be very traumatic as well, especially if Covid, C-diff or whatever made it hard to see him and connect.

If they allow you to stay with your dad, just be there, let him know you love him, do a crossword together and try to eventually work into a conversation where you can find out what he’s thinking. I would also look into speaking with the facility about what your options are at this point and what they suggest.

If you are unable to see him as often as he needs, one thing we did for my husbands aging mother was we bought her an ipad so they could facetime. She’s in Russia and wasn’t doing well but the minute she had a connection to him, I could literally hear a change in her voice and spirit. She’d call religiously every other week at 2:00 to speak with him. Now that my DH has passed, I’m so thankful they had that time together. Connections with those that he loves is so important, many times, it’s all that matters to them.

Nekotish, I have read several of the responses, and believe you have received wonderful advice, especially regarding the medications. I don’t have any answers, nor do I have any personal experience, as we never really had any long-term or similar care situations with our parents.

I just wanted to say I hope you find answers and that your Dad will be able to communicate with you somehow. Having a daughter who is a NPR and daughters in law who are NPRs and nurses, I know from our discussions how important being It is to be an advocate for your loved one. Take care of yourself too.

Re medications - I agree with checking what he is on. When my mom moved back into the city, she had been diagnosed with Alzheimers and needed family to help with care, the first thing I did was to get a handle on her medications. I got a list of them from her previous doctor, googled them as to what they were for and looked at the side affects. I'm not a doctor or a nurse but I do know how to read and I do know how to ask questions and I'm not afraid to ask them'

Re UTI - UTI's can cause a change in behaviour and personality. My mom is now noncommunicative but if her behaviour or personality changes suddenly it is the first thing that is checked and it is usually the result of a UTI.

My heart goes out to you and your dad. I hope the hospital can figure out what is causing the suicidal ideation and can help your dad. This phase of life is very hard. Sending you a virtual hug.

Nekotish, you & your dad are in my prayers. I hope there's an answer for you soon!

I am so sorry about your Dad !!! I have an almost 98 yr old Mom, so I know from experience infections can cause mental confusion as well as an antibiotic used to fight it. Did they continue him on oral meds when he was discharged? I'm sorry I haven't been able to read through everything first and you may have already answered these questions. I wish I could help more.

I'm very sorry for what you and your father are going through. The response from @Zalco/bring back Sophie! is spot on - hospital-induced delirium is a very real thing. And at least in my experience, hospitals and doctors don't take it seriously enough.

This happened to my dad - he had early-ish stage Alzheimers and was living (independently but with a lot of support) in a continuing care retirement community. He had an allergic reaction one day, something that was unfortunately not new for him, and he was brought to the E/R. They quickly handled the allergic reaction and we expected him to be discharged the same day. Instead his mental state decompensated (first hysterical, then almost catatonic) and he wound up in the hospital for 6 more weeks. It was a nightmare. When he was finally discharged, he'd lost the ability to walk on his own or self-care and needed skilled nursing. He could only eat pureed food.

Luckily his care facility was amazing, and he lived mostly very happily for another few years. But a minor incident and what should have been a brief hospital visit altered his physical and mental capabilities permanently. We really had to push the doctors in the hospital about the issue of delirium - they kept assuring us that it was no big deal and that he'd 'snap out of it' quickly and revert to his prior baseline. That can happen but it's not inevitable.

The people who helped us the most while we were trying to sort through this for my dad were the palliative care specialists. They've seen it all, and they can help you to think through how best to make someone comfortable in their final years. Good luck.

As if you haven’t heard it enough upthread, have him checked for a UTI. When DH had knee replacement surgery, he was discharged to an in-patient rehab facility for PT. At the time he was a hale and hearty guy. Suddenly, he began to act oddly. His daughter, a geriatric RN, and I talked. She said have him checked for UTI. Yep, that was it. Once that was treated, he was back to his old self.

So much wonderful advice already, so I won't repeat, but I will add another perspective. Almost 4yrs ago, I lost my father to suicide. He was in his early 80s. It was thought about for decades and well planned. One of his concerns was aging. While he was technically in good health (still driving, no dementia, participating in his sport of choice 6 days a week, living at home) his arthritis was starting to interfere with his sport. He had always said he did not want to end up bedridden like his father (who died at 99yo and was bedridden for several years prior). He was also a narcissist and a control freak. But the biggest looming issue at the time was my mother had been in hospice for six months, and he did not want to be here when she died. Or afterwards.

So I am wondering if this is something your father has been thinking about for awhile, and if his personality leans towards ending his own life, he will (most likely) eventually do so. You don't mention your mother. Has she passed? If so, how long ago?

Over decades, my father had mentioned several times that he would end his own life if/when. After his death, we heard from several friends he had mentioned to them years prior. I won't get into a few conversations we had in the months before his death, but DH and I know it did not matter what we said or what we did, he was going to do what he thought was best for him. So we can, at least, live knowing we did our best. Unlike your father there were no prior attempts, and no signs or red flags in the weeks before. Although afterwards, I can see that his putting Mom in an extended care facility a few weeks before was part of his plan.

Do take care of yourself - easier said than done, I know. I would definitely talk to him about the attempt because If you don't, you will regret if he tries again and succeeds. In which case, talking to him about it, if he is open and honest with his thoughts and feelings, you wouldn't have as many questions later.

Nekotish I was thinking about you this morning. I'm dealing with an aging father too, and I get really worried thinking about what he will do if he ever gets so infirm that he can't live independently. And Allison's post hit some nails on the head as to why my dad and maybe your dad is having such a hard time. My dad too is a narcissist and control freak. He was always a Big Man On Campus dating back to his days as a home town sports hero in high school. And then a successful businessman and community leader. All with the cachet of being someone "special." Now he's just a regular ol' guy who has to depend on the rest of us schlubs to take care of him. He loathes that. He is wracked with depression and anxiety at the thought of losing "control." Control of what I don't know, but it's his mind's idea of "superiority."

There is a woman in our neighborhood who has to use a walker, and she walks our block every single day, rain or shine, I imagine to maintain whatever physical stamina she has left. I see her as a brave, admirable woman. My dad often comments when he sees her of how "pathetic" she is. There is nothing anyone can do to change his mindset, and my dad is invested in "besting" any doctor, lawyer or friend who tries to help him. He must one up them and be contrary. It's sad and very draining to be around him. But I force myself. I try to give him his moments of reliving the time when he had to take care of me and always knew better. That's what he wants from me. Not to actually take care of me as I might like, but to know better. To be the one with all the control and all the answers. I am thankful for when he was that person and what he did for me then, even though it has long, long, long since passed into history. So I try and remember that and remind him of thatwhen I am with him. Just give him a glimpse of when he was the most important man in my life.

I do love him and will miss him when he is gone. I try to remind him of his whole life, not just one moment of it. Try to remind him he's still "the man!" He still is in reality, but he is addicted to the outward trappings of greatness, never seeing or understanding other ways of being respected. If he can't control others, he gets no satisfaction from their company. even helping them. His only desire is to best someone. Suicide can be a way of giving folks around you one last "up yours!"

Ironically, my Dad takes no pleasure in folks doing nice things for him, that just means dependence to him. So one just does what one can. I leave my own self behind for a few hours and visit with my dad a couple of times a week. It was better before the pandemic when the job of fawning over him could be spread out among others in the community! I tell my husband that the secret to getting along with my dad is to praise him excessively for things most other people would not need any mention given. Praise him for his ideas even if they are exactly the same as yours. Hubs can't bring himself to do it. My point is, you could visit your dad just to remind him that you still want him around. That you still need and love him, even if he isn't needed or very pleasant to be around currently. That's what everyone wants, to MATTER. So a visit could just show him that. Even if he can't take it in and doesn't show any appreciation for it. One never knows. Just show him he matters to you. And then if an when he dies, you will know that you tried your best. Do it and be done with it, the rest is in God's hands.

I'm overwhelmed with the kindness and empathy you have all shown me. My Dad and I always have had a great relationship. We are very much alike in many ways. Dad is not a narcissist at all, probably the opposite, whatever that is. My Mom died of metastasized melanoma 18 years ago. Dad surprised us all by having a couple of lady friends the last few years. He has a great sense of humour and is very intelligent. He is a published author and illustrator.

He has said for the last 20 years or so that when the time came, he would "see himself out." He has inquired (to me and his doctor) recently about medical assistance in dying, which is legal in our province, but we both told him that while that is an option, it is a big decision and suggested he wait a week or two until he was feeling more back to normal. Maybe that wasn't the best response.

My daughter is an RN, so we were aware of the potential delirium/depression due to the C-Diff (serious infection) and the antibiotics coupled with the hospitalization and the necessary 2 week self-quarantine on discharge. He was on IV antibiotics for two weeks and had an Rx for a tapered dose for another 3 weeks upon discharge.

He has until now, been in independent living in a seniors residence, so basically has his own suite and went to the dining room for meals or during quarantine, had meals sent up to him. His linens and towels were washed for him once a week. The staff there has been very good to him, and as I mentioned a manager checked on him and stayed with him until the paramedics came. She called me several times to update me and reassure me, I have no quibble with how his situation was handled. Given that no one has mentioned his wounds, I feel that it may have been a half-hearted attempt.

Now for the good news, my Dad called me last night. A nurse brought him a phone and helped him dial. He just wanted me to know that he was alright and that he loved me (and my sisters and our kids.) I told that we we loved him too and were sorry that he felt so helpless. I didn't come right out and ask why, but I asked him if he was feeling better today and if there was anything that he wanted to talk about. He said he was feeling better but everything is just changing too fast. I mostly listened and offered to do anything that would help. He said he just needed to rest, he's tired all the time. I left it at that and encouraged him to call me any time that he wanted to talk and he said he would. Next steps are looking into assisted living/long term care, once I have had a chance to speak to his doctor to get a prognosis. He doesn't have any health problems that are life threatening, he is just old and tired. Before all this happened, when I would call him and ask how he was doing, his standard reply was "Old and tired and well past my best before date." Still has his sense of humour. Sorry for the novella and thank you again for your kind thoughts, prayers, suggestions and virtual hugs. Sometimes it us easier to spill your guts to someone who is not emotionally invested in the situation. Thank you.

Thank-you for giving us an update. As you can see, so many of us (and there are more) are in a similar situation to you and your dads. It sounds like things are okay for now but as you know it can change so quickly. I'm glad you were, and are continuing, to look for a higher level of care for your dad.

I wish your dad all the best and giant warm hugs for you. (((((nekotish))))

Thank you blfenton. I told my kids and my husband I just have to live day by day for the time being and what will be will be and the best thing that we can do is just be present for my dad and support whatever decisions he makes.

PS. I know you are a fellow Canadian, are you in the east or the west or prairies...?

After my father's suicide, my slogan became "it is what it is." I did what I had to do immediately, then spent as much time as I could with Mom before she died six weeks later. I know the situation is upsetting and not knowing if or when he might try again or succeed is hard. I'm glad your daughter is there for support. ((hugs))

No advice, but hugs sent your way.

Wish I knew what to say, but thinking of you and your DF. Glad to know you were able to talk to him and found him in a better mood. Hugs.

Hey Nekotish sorry to have implied that your father might be a narcissist. It's just very difficult for a person that is somewhere on the narcissist scale to cope with aging, I think more difficult than maybe for others but it's still difficult no matter what . . . also people who are very socially and physically active have a hard time because the interaction and activity keeps their demons at bay . . . they may have always been there but the slowing down of life in old age sometimes causes problems to emerge that had previously been able to be kept under the rug, particularly trauma related ones . . . Not sure what one can do in many situations. I recently read a story about a professional basketball player who suffered from depression and anxiety, and famously had an anxiety attack in the middle of a game that took him out. He said that he was lucky because one of the medical team in the locker room kept asking him, "What do you need now?" Luckily for that guy he was able to feel valued enough to respond. My dad's default sadly is to fight with and reject anyone who is trying to help him, he takes no comfort in it. Which is why he was never able to get a handle on his depression and anxiety at a younger age . . . I contrast that with my 94 year old uncle who enjoys being doted on, at least to some extent, he's a social animal without extreme need to control . . .

No matter how you look at it, old age is not for sissies, as my mother used to say. As you noted, a lot of us are struggling with these issues. I think our society needs to do a lot better at coming up with ways to support our elders. I read an interesting article about this just the other day that I will link to.

At any rate, hope you got some of what you needed, and don't hesitate to vent here again, you have a lot of folks who can relate. BIG HUG!

No Country for Old Age

So sorry you are going through this. You mention that your dad is a published author and illustrator. I bring it up because my mom knew long before any diagnosis that she was dying. I didn’t know but found talking to her about her poetry made her very happy towards the end. I think most people occasionally wonder what, if anything, of importance they will leave behind to be remembered by. If your dad starts sounding blue, perhaps you could celebrate with him a bit with his accomplishments.

Hope I’m not saying the wrong thing.

My best!

nekotish - I'm on the west coast, rain country but at least we don't have to shovel it. First fall rain storm is due on Wednesday. Where are you?

West coast too - Fraser Valley. I hope the rain falls in Washington as well!

I hope your father feels better soon. I am so sorry for how hard this time is for you and him. It is heart breaking watching the ones we love hurt and slowly, painfully take their leave.

Sounds to me like he's given up. At 93 and in ill health, he won't be long unless he changes his attitude, however, I wouldn't stress too much if you can't change his mind. 93 is plenty; I can see someone being done. A 43-year-old father of 3 with terminal cancer is sad; a 93-year-old who has had a good life is not.