Folks who have Munstead Wood as grafted reported bad mildew (both in CA and Pakistan). I saw how bad Munstead Wood (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) was at nearby rose park ... DID NOT have much leaves, and the leaves either have mildew in dry weather, or worst blackspots in acidic rain.

I bought Munstead Wood as own-root and LOVE IT. very healthy (no mildew nor blackspots) for the past 6 years and is a continuous bloomer. I grew it in a pot first ... it's shade tolerant and bloomed in 4 hours of sun if high-potassium fertilizer is used.

I have Twilight Zone as own-root, blooms better than Munstead Wood in less sun, but demands tons of acidic rain water for best blooming. Munstead Wood is more drought-tolerant and blooms easily with less water. Munstead Wood is the best scent ever & last long on the bush. Twilight Zone has good scent only in cold weather (very rarely).

I frequent Facebook group of Fragrant Rose Lovers .. there are a few Pakistans who grow all 3 (Munstead Wood, Twilight Zone, and Ebb Tide)

Their preference by the frequency of posted pics: 1) Munstead Wood 2) Twilight Zone 3) Ebb Tide, in that order no matter how hot & dry it gets. Their temp. gets up to 112 F., and Munstead Wood is their most favorite, if some shade is given.

I don't grow Ebb Tide consider what Khalid in Pakistan wrote about Ebb Tide years ago:

"EBB TIDE: A deep shade of violet, mauve and purple. Flowers are medium size, have high petal count and come in clusters. Shade may differ depending on the pH level and availability of various minerals in the soil.

Has strong clove spicy fragrance. A good one for those who like fragrant roses.

Is prone to diseases and quite sensitive to pH. Needs special handling and is not a trouble free rose. If given right growing environment, is quite viogorous. Quite prone to mildew and black spot if the growing conditions are not good." Khalid in zone 9b, Pakistan.

What the heck are you waiting for ? Push that button.

I love my 2 Munsteads ! The color is

kristine_legault's ideas · More Info

so Beautiful and so fragrant.

I'm in the Bay Area like you, Grow Power, but in the South Bay.

It is a sad but well known fact that powdery mildew is particularly common in fragrant red roses. I suspect it is something in the genes, kind of like fragrance and long vase life usually are not found together in the same roses.

I grew MW for several years. I quite liked it, and was sorry to remove it when I reduced the number of roses I grew by half in the past run of severe drought years.

Here it did not have a lot of PM. However I grew it in full sun. You are planning to grow it in half day sun. Will it make a difference? I don't know. If you plant it, let us know. Some deep reds do well with morning sun and afternoon part shade. It keeps the reds from burning.

You do know it is a thorny beast, right?

I have it both own root and grafted and agree with Straw that the own root is a better plant. Bigger plant, bigger blooms and more blooms. If you love deep red, flouncy roses, you won't be sorry you have it. One of Austin's best perfumes.

In her cooler weather colors.

In her warm weather colors.

I don't grow Ebb Tide, but I do grow Twilight Zone, own root, which is a very deep purple. I think mine is deeper than normal. It might be my soil.

Twilight Zone a couple years ago before it was hit with the weed torch.

My Munstead Wood is in a very shady spot,doubtless with tree-root competition, and even though I have not given it real care, it has survived and bloomed in spite of this-not much, true, and it's small,even though it's been there a while,but I'm so impressed with it that I've resolved to give it more attention and care, and even bought a second plant this year from Rose Barni. Don't remember seeing any disease on it either...

As to the grafted versus own-root issue,in my garden at least, if I plant a grafted rose correctly (graft JUST BARELY under the surface of the soil ),many roses wil "go own root" in time. But it is very important that I plant them at the right level,so that roots develop only on the graft, as it were; if the plant is too deep it'll root along the canes, and I wind up with a little group of wimpy little own-rooted canes, all competing with one another.

For bush beauty, my vote goes to Twilight Zone (almost thornless). Twilight Zone has thick & glossy & very pretty foliage. I never see mildew on Twilight Zone, but I saw PM on Munstead Wood's dull leaves at rose park & also ugly bush & not much leaves.

I also saw mildew on 1st-year own-root Munstead Wood when I transferred from pot and made my clay too acidic with gypsum. So I replaced the soil with top soil (alkaline black clay & high potassium) and no more mildew for the past 6 years. Mildew is more likely to develop from acidic OR low-potassium soil.

Consider what the breeder Robert Rippetoe wrote on Munstead Wood from his Rancho Mirage, CA with sandy soil: "Susceptible to Powdery Mildew, my garden, Rancho Mirage, CA 92270" Robert Neil Rippetoe

Mildew is a problem with partial shade for certain red roses. Own-root Barcelona was in full-sun and 100% healthy, zero mildew for 7 years. Tree-roots invaded it, so I moved to partial shade and it got mildew for the 1st time, despite better & wetter clay.

Munstead Wood is VERY PRICKLY, hard to cut for the vase. Twilight Zone blooms better in partial shade than Munstead Wood. If I were to grow them in pots & disease-resistance & bush beauty, I would choose Twilight Zone over Munstead Wood. If I grow them for scents alone, I would choose Munstead Wood.

Below is my 6th-year own root Munstead Wood, best in partial shade since flowers shatter fast in full-sun. Had it in a pot before I transferred to the ground. As own-root, bush is MUCH WIDER than rose park's grafted-on-Dr.Huey.

Below is Twilight Zone, had blackspot when I directed the flow of rainspout dumping 50+ gallons of acidic water on it. But it's very healthy when I took out that pipe dumping tons of rain of it.

Below is Twilight Zone in only 4 hours of morning of sun, click on the pic. to enlarge & to see the beauty of its leaves.

I am in the East Bay, close to Alameda with coastal climate. I deal perpetually with rust, downy mildew and powdery mildew with a spray program. I used to have Munstead Wood, and currently grow Twilight Zone and Celestial Night.

I had two own root Munstead Wood in full sun for 2 years prior to getting rid of it. MW blooms a lot, depending on the season, the color ranged from dark burgundy to deep pink to dark purple. The colors were most beautiful, and the fragrance is outstanding. During the first growing season, the bush was completely clean with no disease. It grew not much, and by the end of the growing season it was at most 2 feet tall by 3 feet wild (which is small by the standard of our climate). However, during the second year, it developed pretty bad downy mildew, not so much powdery mildew. Also it periodically sent out very long, and awkward shoots. I have to say the bush looks weird with quite awkward growth. I didn't see this mentioned often in the forum. Since I have MW in the front of the bed, the weird look just wouldn't work for me. Eventually due to downy mildew and the awkward growth, I decided to get rid of the two MW.

I have Twilight Zone for a year now and agree with others that TZ can tolerate a lot of shade. The color is more purple than MW, in particular if you view the flowers during the early evening, the color changed to a deeper tone. In fact I will recommend planting TZ in part sun only, perhaps morning sun. TZ is susceptible to rust, in fact quite badly. I haven't yet seen powdery mildew. Two years ago I went to San Jose Rose Garden which used to have a bed of TZ (now they got rid of it due to poor performance), and by September, all the foliage is gone. I just say the TZ bed was the worst looking of all the rose beds. In my garden, I spray every 2 weeks, so I can maintain its foliage, but still there is rust here and there. In 2-3 weeks, I plan to transplant it to a more sunny location to see if the rust will improve in the coming year.

The most disease resistant burgundy/violet color rose is celestial night. If you put it in morning sun, it is deep burgundy in the spring, dark pink in the heat of the summer and back to violet in the fall. I don't need to spray celestial night. During the first year it is a bit slow to repeat, but it improves tremendously during the second year with very regular repeats. There are many reports of celestial night turning hot pink in very hot climate, but since we rarely have temperature above 90 degree here, and I planted it in morning sun only, the color is dark and most pleasing. I am most happy celestial night.

I guess that I have been lucky. Southern Oregon zone 8a .I have never had rust or mildew. Just beautiful, perpetual blooms .

I agree that the plant is a bit wonky but those blooms make it worth it.

Rose Rai: Fantastic info. Thank you !! Agree with the ugly bush of Munstead Wood and its disease-problems as grafted-on-Dr.Huey at nearby rose park (alkaline clay).

The Dark Lady as own-root has MUCH HEALTHIER LEAVES. Never see mildew nor blackspots on my 5th-year own-root Dark Lady in 4 hours of evening sun.

The Dark Lady scent is lighter than Munstead Wood. The Dark Lady has more wafting scent, the old rose scent is there but it wafts rather than intense per bloom like Munstead Wood. The Dark Lady has Rugosa heritage so it's drought-tolerant & leaves are much healthier than Munstead Wood. Below is Dark Lady in partial shade:

Left red is W.S. 2000 (very shade-tolerant), right is The Dark Lady (also shade-tolerant). Pink is Radio Times.

Below pic. with Barcelona on top (scent is just as good as Munstead Wood). Munstead Wood is dark-red on right. W.S. is smaller pinkish red, and The Dark Lady is lowest left (pinkish red).

Barcelona is a cutie-pie, stays 1' x 1' for the past 7 years as own-root, always healthy in full-sun until I moved to partial shade and it got mildew immediately. Bush beauty is better than both Dark Lady and Munstead Wood, and scent is stronger than both.

Below is Barcelona, blooms are small since it's a tiny own-root. I would get it as grafted for larger bush & bigger blooms.

Sheila, what is the rose with the blush/white flowers to the left of MW in the photo? It's beautiful.

FWIW, the fragrance of MW seems to be very volatile in my very dry high altitude climate. Most days the fragrance is nearly non-existent. Other days (i.e. after a rare rain) it is rich and lovely. There is usually some fragrance in the morning just when the sun first reaches it, but it is gone in an hour or two. The flowers wilt very quickly once the sun touches them here and mine grows in full sun. The fragrance is much easier to appreciate indoors, although as Straw says, it is very thorny and hard to use as cut flowers. I use a thorn stripper. Also in the heat, it changes from the dark red to a bright magenta and loses size and petal count in the heat (about 2" in diameter, and 8-10 petals). It's not a particularly floriferous rose, and takes a break between flushes. It's not a constantly growing and blooming rose. I think I had two flushes, in May and October last year. In Alameda, since you are near the ocean and your humidity levels are high and your temperatures are moderate, it should do well and keep the dark colors and have a good fragrance, but like all roses, it will probably not be at its best with only 5 hours of sun a day.

My 4 year old own-root plant got this big by its second year, and and hasn't gotten much bigger since then. This is as much as it blooms in the first flush. It was moderately warm during this first flush, (probably in the 80's) so the flowers aren't very dark.

In your climate, and if you don't mind the thorns and are willing to risk lower performance from the short sun exposure, I'd say go for it.

Whispers Dooooooo it......
Mine is three years old, own root and just this year is finally throwing strong basal breaks (two).
I've not seen powdery mildew on mine (mildew is very rare here, and generally appears in autumn) and light to moderate black spot.
It's certainly healthier than most fragrant red hybrid teas are, and hardier as well (not that cold hardiness means anything for ya there).

Fragrance is wonderful and rich.
Colour is highly variable depending on temperature, season, and age of plant. Mine finally started getting the rich colours this variety is known for in year three. Prior to this year, and still in hot weather, it was mostly a deep pink.

At its best, it's blackish crimson sometimes with hints of brown or dashes of "blue".

Steven

Do it! Thorns and all, it is magnificent, and the fragrance is stronger than any other I’ve owned (except Oklahoma, which was left at my old house and which I still miss almost three years later).

Get a good pair of gloves and perhaps long-handled clippers. Stems are short, and the blooms don’t last long indoors, but the fragrance is such that you will want it in a vase anyway!

Noseometer, the blush/white is Bubble Bath which is an offspring of Cecile Brunner. It is outstanding, healthy and fragrant. BB is really excellent. I got a second.

Sheila, that is magnificent!!!

I myself am trying hard to get one of these uber-dark purple roses to grow well,but I have only recently started to try floribundas and their ilk,so I don't know if my attempts will be successful in the long run. Climbers, ramblers and some old roses accept the tough conditions of my garden quite graciously,but I am not sure if floribundas will be able to handle the fact that they must get by solely on rainfall after their first year. In fact, this is why I was asking about hydrogels in another thread; I want to see if I can tweak things around enough to provide these less-vigorous roses with (somewhat) cushier circumstances. Possibly I could provide artificial irrigation to a few plants,but mine is not a suburban garden near a house with running water.

This fall I planted out a Purple Eden (Ebb Tide); I also ordered another Twilight Zone and a Munstead Wood from Barni. So now, in pots, I have 2 Purple Edens, 2 Twilight Zones ,and one Munstead Wood,all of which I hope to plant out in Fall 2021. It's a shame that so many people seem to concur that Ebb Tide is lacking in vigour; that is the only one that seems to be readily available here in Italy (Barni just started to offer TZ last spring, I think). In fact,one of my potted Ebb Tides is new; when we went to the garden center to buy a Christmas tree I saw it sitting amongst the left-over potted roses in a neglected corner, but the plant looked so large and really pretty vigorous,so I went ahead and bought it-bad, bad bart...

Thanks Sheila! Bubble Bath looks like a rose version of the Geranium ‘Biokovo’ doesn’t it? I’ll have to look into it. Nice Munstead, with great colors!

Where are you all buying your own rooted version of munstead? I am not really turning up anyone selling them via google. I'm in the US west coast (CA) Thanks!

Chamblees sells MW own root in 3 gallon container. See:https://www.chambleeroses.com/catalog/product/roses/david-austin-roses/munstead-wood/

I got mine through Regan, which carried the own root version of Munstead Wood. However, it seemed they sold out the bareroots for 2021. https://www.regannursery.com/rose/Munstead-Wood. Nevertheless, I found that often they offer the potted rose version in February if you email them.

David Austin USA sells MW own root in the 2 quart size. It is available for pre-order for Spring delivery.

Ah thanks @Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR. I did see the 2 quart size, but did not realize that it was own root. I guess it makes sense given the size.

I think you may want to call David Austin or email them to clarify about that, because I am aware that up to 3 years ago, David Austin offer MW as own root, and on their website at that time, it clearly said that it is own root. But then last year MW disappeared from their list of own root roses. They might have reversed back to the grafted version. Now if you search their website with the keywords "own root roses", MW is not among one of them. Also on the 2020 David Austin handbook, page 108, they listed all the own root roses but MW is not among them anymore. On the page of MW, it did not say it is "own root" liked it was 3 years ago.

Their customer service is very good so I am sure you can get an answer.

MW in the 2 quart own root size is listed. They do not have it in their own root bare root size which is larger to start. This is rather confusing I realize.

In case anyone wants confirmation of what Sheila said: This is the reply I got back from david austin.

Thank you for your email.

The potted roses are own root roses. As potted the Munstead will be own root. Bare root will be grafted.

If you have any further questions or concerns, please don’t hesitate to contact me.

@grow power How odd of them!

I recall when they first began offering own root roses, they stated to write on the order form "own root" because you could have a choice of either as a bare root (grafted OR own root).

Now, their catalogue doesn't even feature an order form, and that makes me sad because I like doing things in a more traditional sense from time to time.

When they redesigned their catalogue, I didn't like the washed out photos, its very stinky (to me at least) smell, reduction in listed varieties, no more supplemental or additional list- just 'view online' in teensy tiny print... in its index.
I STILL don't like it and I dislike change for the sake of it just because someone thinks different or new automatically means improvement. It does not.

I found it disheartening, especially since they released the redesign the year AFTER Mr. Austin's passing.

Of course, such a change would have had to be in the works already because there wouldn't have been enough time otherwise much in the same way Chrysler's third gen LH cars were going to be RWD before DaimlerBenz r*ped them when Eaton sold out. The second gen LH cars came out in 1998 which is the same year as to take-over, and the development of the replacement began BEFORE Mercedes got involved and shoved its parts down Chrysler's throat. The 300/Charger/Magnum/Challenger were NEVER based on the old E-class but rather only had bits from it. Mercedes then dictated their product development with stripping features, worse interiors and styling, and no improvement in real quality. From there we've seen how Chrysler has been withering away and I don't suspect they or Dodge will last another decade. It's all about Jeep.

Sorry to digress into automotive, so here's another Munstead Wood...

Steven

I own 4 munstead wood, so yes please order it! I’m growing mine in full 8-10 hours of hot sun and I have never had any mildew. I get very little black spot on it now that it has matured. In fact, it is one of the best performers in my garden. I’m not sure if mine is own root or grafted...since mine were purchased 3 years ago.

Grow Power, I've grown Ebb Tide since 2006, Twilight Zone since 2013, and Munstead Wood Since the year it began being sold (2014-5?). I have multiple plants of each and love them all. Munstead is not a true purple, but exhibits many lovely shades during the growing season, from dark red to almost black red. It has a lovely scent, blooms almost continuously, and is one of Austin's best, I think. Of the two true purple roses, I prefer Twilight Zone for its deepest purple, particularly in spring and fall. It doesn't fade out in heat and dry air like Ebb Tide often does. Ebb Tide has the nicest scent, though. Your climate is very different from mine, which is semi arid desert with hot dry summers and a short growing season. But, what the heck, I say to give Munstead Wood a try. I prefer MW grafted on Dr Huey. If that doesn't go well, then you might try Twilight Zone. Here are a group of photos to give you an idea of colors each rose displays. Note that Munstead shows a range of colors over the season. Diane

In the first group, the top two photos are Munstead Wood. The third photo shows MW and Ebb Tide together. You can see the difference in color. The middle group shows MW in a lighter color in the first two photos, and the third photo is Twilight Zone. The last group is Twilight Zone. Diane

o, thank you for posting these beautiful photos,Diane. I Have all 3 of these roses, and hope that some day mine will be like yours are,but they've got a long way to go. What kind of treatment do you give yours?

I used to grow 'Ebb Tide' and it was a remarkable color.

Bart bart, thanks for your nice comments, and I do hope your roses are purple beauties this spring. These colors are among my favorite for roses. My roses all get the same regimen: a special compost in the fall; in late February they receive Plant Tone, and in early March, they get a dessert of Lilly Miller Organic Granular Fertilizer for acid loving plants (my soil is alkaline). At that point, the roses are ready for pruning in late March, and they darn well better bloom for me. Diane

Thank you, Diane. Unfortuneately there aren't a lot of organic granular fertilizers around in my area of Italy; those that I have seen seem to have some kind of meat by-product in them, which I have to avoid since it would-or might- attract the dam' badgers. However, I take the point; you fertilize twice in early spring, and add compost in fall. Since I'll have to use a chemical granular fertilizer, I realize that applying that twice might be too much ;( organics seem to me to be more gentle), but maybe supplementing with a liquid fertilizer would be a good substitute. The acid-lovers' fert is a good idea; my soil is on the alkaline side of neutral.

Bart bart, so you have badgers? There are plenty of them around here, and I like them for they wipe out the voles and gophers. I haven't found that they are attracted to the granular fertilizer I use, which I think smells like a fish gone bad, as does Plant Tone, for that matter. The compost has no odor, thankfully, but contains some chicken manure and mycorrhizae (don't know if that helps any, but it drives me crazy to spell). Sometimes, usually around July, I use Miracle Gro in my hose end sprayer. This is mainly to make me feel like I'm doing something, and I have never seen it work any miracles for sure. All the best for you and your roses. Diane

Thank you, dearie. Badgers have been SO damaging to my garden; I think it all started when I decided to make my own fish emulsion,since it isn't available commercially here. I followed the instructions, and waited until it was odourless-to MY nose-to distribute it .All hell broke loose! The horrid critters up-rooted roses,digging for grubs, I guess. They are incredibly strong: I had, with great fatigue, moved large rocks to be stepping stones in my paths; they made caos of the paths , digging and messing up the mulch that I'd laboured so to apply,shifting the rocks this way and that. It took me 2 years to re-inforce my fence at the base; they kept on finding new ways to get in. So, never again will I risk using ANYTHING with fish or meat in it-NEVER. They have incredibly good senses of smell, and do eat carrion, so rotten fish or meat won't bother them. I much, much MUCH prefer the gentle foxes and cats to deal with the voles and their ilk. However, my garden is in the middle of a woodland,so animal pests perhaps can be more of an issue for me.

There is a liquid algae-based fert available, which I will try, and also a mycorrhizae one...

Oh, how awful, Bart Bart. The damage you describe is more like what we'd get from a barrage of gophers. Perhaps, your badgers are a different variety than the "new world" type--ha. We certainly have plenty of pests here out in the desert hills. One of the worst being the hundreds of quail which hang out in my back yard and the wild gully just beyond. They make many "dust bowls" under roses and other plants, and can literally excavate out the roots of plants if I don't throw up barriers to this behavior. Their constant scratching and digging causes erosion on the slope that comes up to our back yard, and the quail devour lots of expensive seed and seedlings, so there are many plants I simply can't grow. I think we should form a group dedicated to complaints about all the critters that damage our gardens and drive us crazy. We let our cats out in the back yard under supervision--they are not allowed to wander or be out at night. Lately, we have had a three legged coyote hunting around here even right in our back yard. So, the cats are under house arrest now. Our "gentle" foxes and coyotes have wiped out the cute and not damaging pygmy rabbits we used to have, a threatened species, and now there is not a single little rabbit around. I'd better quit with the complaining. We chose to move here. In town I had way fewer pests, which were mostly of the child variety in that environment. Diane

Deer. Though obviously I don't have them here in the city. But my gardening friends in the country do. What we do have is feral cats -- and also, thank heavens, dedicated neighbors who trap and release and take care of them. But the cats do dig up stuff when they do their business, which is also toxic, I imagine. My husband and I adopted a semi-feral. She's from the front, not the back garden. Unlike our last adopted cat, she has no desire whatsoever to go back outside, after having lived under cars in the street. Our neighbors asked us to build a shelter for her in our front garden. But I'd rather have flowers in front than cats, so we brought her in. She's a character.

Front yard tulips in May

Monarda, your kitty is simply beautiful with those markings and eyes, and I love the cheery tulips, which deer love, of course. We have plenty of deer, but I'm not getting into that--they are the big, not cute, mule deer. Diane

Thanks, Diane. I figured that since I live in the city -- with no deer -- I should splurge annually on tulips. I love 'Shogun', my new fave. It's a fabulous saffron color.

I love the open form of your tulips--isn't that more like the species tulips? Those colors are wonderful. Diane

I do like the species, tulips, Diane. I think Shogun is classified in the species group 'praestans'. It's a multiflora, too. It has pointy petals, which resemble Persian decorative paintings. I like the green striped yellow regular ones, too. I always plant 'Formosa' for some reason. But I don't think I've ever seen a tulip I didn't like. Some of the species are more resistant to animals, btw. Clusiana, which is rhizomatous, seemed to persist longer than the others when I planted it on Long Island. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

I have two flanking my front steps. No regrets.

I am not a fan of crimson, but I love Munstead Wood. In zone 7, VA it is grafted on fortuniana from K&M. I would also love to have an own root Munstead. This rose is so stunning, it seems to glow..I am just in awe of how beautiful it is, I could just stand and stare at it all day :) . Somehow I can never quite capture the jewel tones in a picture. About health, never had powdery mildew, no blackspot and it was slow to bloom year 1 but year 2, it is a continuous bloomer. Mine gets some shade in the afternoon. It's the thorniest, as bad as a rugosa rose..I feel this is a must have and for me the best David austin for form, health, color and the amazing fragrance. I have it thickly mulched, drunk on alfaalfa tea, with horse manure in spring....I have princess margareta, poets wife, molineaux, evelyn, abe darby, prince(mildew monster)....but MW is the best

@Diane Brakefield simply wow, your roses and those pictures are so Awesome!!

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR your munstead wood, looks amazing. I wish mine would grow that big..right now it's happily sprawling

I, like Diane, grew all three, and my experience/description matches hers, however I agree with Paul regarding Ebb Tide’s coloring...

Ebb Tide is the ” must have” for me due to the coloring, but I would add that to my nose, it has the best fragrance and I prefer its growth habit and leaf color.

Second is Munstead Wood, which never had purple tones in my garden. MW was a beautiful velvety burgundy or hot pink/fuschia during the Summer..

Twilight Zone cannot compete with Purple Lodge when it is in its purple phase, and P.l. did not turn hot pink or fuchsia during the Summer heat/sun... The only benefit of Twilight Zone for me, is it smaller stature as compared to Purple Lodge....I may order and grow Twilight Zone again oneday... but it is no longer a high priority/ go to on my list when I want a purple rose...

Lynn, I love the photos I have seen of your Purple Lodge, but I have to defend Twilight Zone in my garden, where he stands seven feet tall, and is now blooming pitch purple black blooms in the current 100F heat. I'm taking photos, but will have to post them later because of my old fashioned camera and methods. TZ never loses its purple here. I now have two of them, and each is a great rose for me. Diane

From last year, but not posted before.

I would defend your Twilight Zone too, Diane!! My Twilight Zone never looked like yours... but my conditions were much drier, hotter, and I would guess that despite amending, the soil was poorer too. Purple lodge didn’t care and could produce blooms that were a deep or grape purple that I have only seen on Gallicas, but VELVETY. There is not a purple rose that I have grown that would do that....

The roses are different, all have merit, but it is a matter of preference... I prefer dark green leaves and those that are matte... which for me is a strike against TZ in terms of preferences..Despite it all, I would grow TZ again, especially being in a different environment.

Thanks, Lynn. I think TZ actually likes hot and dry. It can take the dry heat much better than my three Ebb Tide plants, which I also like, but just not as well as TZ, which is kind of velvety, too, but maybe not as much as Purple Lodge. Diane

Posting this again to show TZ has a bit of a velvet look.

My experiences regarding heat tolerance was similar to yours, Diane. I had a bed with multiple Ebb Tides, multiple Love Song, and a couple Cecile Brunner (not the climber) and all roses were very happy because they did not receive afternoon sun and were essentially in the shade during the heat of day. The other Ebb Tides in my garden were in a western exposure, but the sun was filtered from a tree in the vicinity. I knew of Ebb Tide's reputation regarding heat tolerance and was very nice in terms of its garden placement.

I lost my Ebb Tide during snowmageddon, but already have a replacment residing in a pot on my covered patio...I am curious as to how it will fare here...

My Twilight Zones were definitely more heat tolerant, but my Ebb Tides were never put through the test. I do think that Twilight Zone is more favored by rose growers, especially those with hot dry Summers, and likely due to a lot of the above.

One of my Munstead Woods was grown in a full sun western exposure location. I posted the images at one point (years ago). If you love hot pink or fuschia...during a hot dry Summer, it is likely what one will get, however, it took the sun, heat and survived...