Thanks Vap and Diane! I didn’t know that.

Steve, I just went outside took a couple photos for you. Hope they help. I put LED string light on the trees by the driveway. Do I have to loose them up every a few months?

"subks, you're loaded for sure. HD is selling $29.98 for 9lbs biochar, at $3.33 per unit, so for 2,000 lb, it would cost $6,662.22!"

Haha, no, not exactly. With agriculture status I can buy it wholesale from landscape suppliers by the pallet, so more like a 1/6th of that number--about .60 a pound. What I bought is more typically used on golf courses and athletic fields. Still, it does feel like you're throwing dollar bills into the wind as it is flying out the spreader from the back of the tractor!

I have a horse farm and we are trying to improve the quality of forage in a more economic (and successful) way than just more fertilizers and more weed killers. My property was phosphate mined 50 years ago, a process that takes up the top couple feet of soil, runs it through machinery to pull out the phosphate then dumps and spreads it back over the ground. It destroys the top soil by mixing it with subsoil so that what's left on top has little organic matter content. Theoretically the biochar can address some of that and will pay for itself over the course of a few years, but that's why it's a "test" on only 5 acres. If it works it will be well worth not having to wait several hundred years (or millennium) for Mother Nature to fix it.

The side benefit is having extra biochar to mess with on my roses!

Subk3, I’d love to be a farmer for those deals! My goodness! I am in agriculture zone, I would like to start a farm someday, but it can’t be animal farms due to traveling. I am thinking about orchard, I like jujubes. I can eat those 24/7, but they are so expensive! I probably won’t sell any, I will eat them all. Will that still be a farm? Nonprofit? Lol

Summers - what are jujubes? I remember from my childhood a box of chewy (very chewy - stick in your teeth chewy) candies called jujubes. Certainly THEY don't grow on trees!

Vapor and Diane -I thought of those plants that have runners and love being chopped up to create thousands of new plants - even ivy will - but I assumed (maybe wrongly) that that's not what Summers was talking about.

Melissa Mc - a blank slate just makes me drool...please update with what you decide to do.

MiGreenThumb - I'm a tree hugger in a hostile environment. My neighborhood puts a priority on ocean views and anything taller than the house (1 story ranch types), the homeowners can go to the city and force you to remove trees that are in their view. Most of my neighbors want a 180 degree view of the ocean with absolutely nothing in the way of their view. It's really sad. Give me a forest any day. I do love the ocean view, but looking at it through trees is more beautiful if you ask me. I do my best to plant smaller trees and my house is on a hill so I can plant trees at the bottom that aren't taller than 40-50 feet. I'm skating on thin ice with a couple of eucalyptus that are in the way of my neighbor's views. But these trees were there before any of them moved in so they knew what they were getting when they bought their houses.

Subk3 that's awesome!! Do you breed horses or train or both? I did both for years so it's always fun to run across other horse people.

Birdsovesroses, there are many kinds of Jujube fruits, often called Chinese dates, The fresh jujubes are very tasty, but they are super hard to find around me. Once or twice in a year I could find fresh jujube fruits at Asian market. online is about 3lbs for $40.-$60. Many people on orchard forum grow all kinds of jujubes. they got me started with 2 Honey Jar jujubes and 1 Li jujubes trees. Jujubes have many health benefits. Dried jujubes are everywhere. The fresh jujube fruits are the best. I could have 10 lbs a day, for breakfast, lunch and dinner. :-)

https://www.gardeningchannel.com/health-benefits-of-jujube/

Oh Summers! Those look absolutely magnificent! I can only imagine how grandly huge they are.

Looking at that nice tight bark, I'm going to... go out on a limb and say it's Sugar or the closely related (only a distinct variety of?) Black Maple.

Thanks for sharing your lovely Acers!

I just love me some big ol' wolf trees!

Steven

Thanks Steve! Some of them might be near 200 yrs old, they are giant.

Another tree worshipper here: we've been planting them for about seventeen years now. I was really pleased when DH planted a hundred trees a couple of years ago. He's in his eighties, and knew his satisfaction would consist in knowing he'd gotten them started. Sometimes I think the real goal of my gardening is, not to have roses and beauty, but to improve the environment.

Speaking on the worship of trees- not only do I seek natives (Michigan, then the U.S. itself) but also very unique species from other places in the world that are not invasive and becoming rare in their home/native ranges.

Specifically, I have sought out Serbian Spruce and Korean Fir (straight species from seed; not named cultivars) for global rarities so far.

From North America, I currently have Fraser Fir (limited areas of Appalachians it seems), balsam fir, and it's variant, Canaan Fir on the way as well. It seems that for conifers, I am right at the southern most range for some and the northern most for others. I've only ever seen wild Balsam Firs in the UP, yet I have found stands of another Boreal Forest entity in stands in south Michigan- Balsam Poplar. THOSE have a peculiar stinky smell and super resinous buds (I think that's where Balm of Gilead comes from IIRC).

You know Melissa, I can't imagine anything more beautiful than improving the environment, especially with long-lived legacies like trees that absorb so much carbon, give oxygen, and so much more in so many ways! That's so wonderful your DH planted to many. What an inspiration!

Steven

Did somebody say goats? Melissa? We've had lots of rent a goat(s) around these parts. Here are some pics from a few years ago. Diane

I'm loving all of this tree talk! :)

Birds - what a shame that you have to limit trees in your area.

...and I'm so happy to hear all these safer, health-and-environment alternatives to chemicals wed-killers! Seriously! Having a huge garden myself, that I had to start from scratch, I do know what serious weed problems are, and continue to struggle with them,but quick-fixes just don't really work in the long run. They are like crash-diets: the dieter may well lose "10 pounds in two weeks",but the weight tends to pile back on again ,and the price on their general health can be very, very high. Nature just doesn't work that way.

About 20-odd years ago, when I started my garden, my DH drove our ancient tractor with a back-hoe attatched and roughed up the area that I wanted to plant. It was a good way to start,though at the time I had no experience or knowledge (or computer, lol!)

Me too, love the tree talk! May I see everyone’s tree photos? :-)

Diane, I can't be sure, but I think something is wrong with that last goat.

So sorry this has taken awhile for me to respond. This has been a busy weekend and our internet connection isn't the greatest. But, unlike some people in East TN, at least we have it, so I try not to complain.

Lilyfinch, I am so looking forward to the cutting garden. I hope my granddaughters will enjoy it even more than I will. I hope we can enjoy watching the visiting songbirds together after the flowers go to seed in the fall. I so enjoyed the pictures of your Tennessee home. I'll bet your wildflower garden was a delight. I hope mine will be too.

Summers, you didn't miss anything, I didn't talk about it. Shine was our much-loved Australian Shepherd. We lost her near the end of January from cancer, most likely an aggressive lymphoma. She went from seeming a bit off around Christmas to unable even to swallow her pills in January. It was hard. It still is.

Noseometer, I hope that something will eventually present itself. Maybe in time.

Lol jc I had to go back and look . It does look a little off :)

awww thanks kes !! I appreciate that . Someday I’ll have an even better wildflower garden !! Hope you’ll post pics of yours . It really is magical!

Summers - thanks for the info on Jujubes - very interesting. Your maples are 200 years old? Incredible!

Kes - so sorry for your loss...so hard...a beautiful rose will be a wonderful remembrance for your dear Shine. What are some that you are considering?

Sorry Kes. It must have been hard for you. Are you getting another puppy? It might help you. I am on the waiting list for a poodle puppy this spring. Have to call the breeder see if she got a litter coming.

You’re welcome Birdsloveroses. I am guessing the big maple trees are around that age since they look original to this historical place. I can’t approve it though, haven’t found any old photos of this place. Maybe Steve could guess the trees age better than me. I will take some tree photos today

@ joeywyomingz4b Subk3 that's awesome!! Do you breed horses or train or both? I did both for years so it's always fun to run across other horse people.

A little bit of both. I trained for years, but bred my first one last year. I tend to buy them young-ish develop them, then sell them on after a few years and start all over with a new one. I try to keep enough in the hopper with enough in sales to be a working farm and keep my ag status. I think there are several horse folks here!

Gidget:

(Aside: this is the first time Houzz has let me download a photo in MONTHS!)

@Melissa Northern Italy Sometimes I think the real goal of my gardening is, not to have roses and beauty, but to improve the environment.

^This^ I consider myself more of a conservationist than an environmentalist. The biochar stays in the soil and improves the soil's ability to sustain micro life that improves fertiity for literally centuries. While I want it to make financial sense, there is deep satisfaction in thinking that maybe I can do something more permanent that addresses the destruction of the soil done decades ago--that I'm going to leave my little corner better than when I got it.

To keep this more rose related (and because is can finally post pictures!!!) here's a photo of Mother of Pearl which I'm getting 2 more of this spring since it is so happy here:

Wow I've been away from Houzz for a few days and look at all I missed! Quite a discussion!

My experience with weeds is that as soon as you create bare ground using chemicals, what comes back 100x is MORE WEEDS! Because lots of weedy species are immune to the chemicals while the natives are not.

The best ways I've found to get rid of weeds are: (1) mulch with cardboard/leaves/etc., then (2) spread native seeds of various types to immediately take over the ground and prevent more weeds from getting established. Hand-weed to get rid of invasive weeds while the natives get established. Work in sections to keep it manageable. Trying to do too large an area at once will NOT work.

This year I'm considering trying a portable flame torch on some new sections, see how that works.

As for jujubes - I have 4 jujube trees and they are a great addition to the garden and diet! My favorites are Honey Jar, they taste like caramel when they're dry.

What a pretty baby horse you have there subk3!

I think in NY state farmers have to have at least $10,000 profit per year for two years and then can apply for property tax deductions. I will never make that much no matter what I grow. Jujubes would be the worst since I will be eating them all myself. Lol

Steve, if you could estimate the trees age would be great. We only measured a couple of them. The tree trunk sizes are 18.5’ and 15.5’. Here are the photos of two trees.

JC, that's an Anatolian Guard Dog (or at least part Anatolian). He took his job seriously and lived with the goats. Cardboard and leaves don't work here--too dry, and the quail eat the seeds.

Subk, your Mother of Pearl is beautiful. I can see why you want more. Lovely foal. I was a horseperson about 65 years ago. Diane

This is what I found out how to estimate your (sugar) maple trees. https://homeguides.sfgate.com/tell-age-maple-trees-76093.html

Tree#1. 186"/3.14*5.5=325 Yrs old!

Tree#2 388"/3.14*5.5=388 yrs old!

I guess they're tree saints! Lol I will plant some ramblers next to them to dress them up a little.

Slumgullion, would you please tell me more about honey jar jujube? I planted 2 honey jar about 3 years ago and 1 Li 2 years ago in PA zone 5b, I got no fruits last fall. How long will take them to bear fruits? Can't wait! Lol Where did you order your honey jar? I need 10 at least for the new garden in NY state. Edible Landscaping sold out theirs.

I don't have cardboard now, but I do have tons of maple leaves. I could cover a good part of future garden area with maple leaves as soon as snow melts. We need to clean the leaves off the lawn anyway, now I have a place to dump.

Subk - What a striking foal! Was the father a paint horse? And you really chose a great name for her! I love your MoP rose!! A few bushes together will make a striking picture!

Kes - It's so heartbreaking when our pets die. I still can't believe it's been 4 years since my 2 dogs died (1 month after the other). Australian Shepherds are such untuitive dogs that are so attentive. That make's the loss even more evident, I think. .

A quick search shows a number of miniature roses with “Shine” in the name. There’s one called Shine-On https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.16927. 

I think my Honey Jar is about 3-4 years old, and last year is the first time it had fruit. I'll have to look up where I got it....

(An hour later LOL)...Looks like I got it from Raintree Nursery in 2017.

I also have Chico (second favorite), So, and Shaanxi Li.

There are also jujube trees available from Burnt Ridge Nursery and also Bay Flora.

Summersrhythym, Do you have them planted close enough to each other they can cross-pollinate? I'm not sure that all of them are self-fertile. I think some are, and some are not. And even the ones that are self-fertile will give more fruit if cross-pollinated. It sounds like you have a big property so that might be something to consider.

Steven, yes to everything you said. I think that a good tree is possibly the most majestic of all living organisms. Good luck with your projects. I have a notion that Serbian spruce is grown locally as an ornamental, but am not sure; I'm not good at conifer identification. Italy certainly does magnificent true cedars very, very well.

As for our tree projects, we started with treeless and almost brushless starved clay soil, and getting trees, or anything, really, to grow there has been a job. Most of our zillions of planted trees are less than a meter tall, many foot-tall twigs. Well, patience: they'll grow. But it's not just a matter of planting trees; the entire character of the soil has to be transformed.

The garden is really a multi-generational project, but with no guaranteed younger generation to take over where DH and I leave off. Right now one of our chief tasks is to get the soil in condition to host trees, shrubs, roses, and get past the grass stage much of the garden is currently in (and that's good: when we started some areas didn't even support grass). If a new generation of owners does show up and want to continue the garden, I suspect there will be considerable re-designing to do, eliminating plants that were good enough when the ability to survive was a major desirable characteristic, but not later when fussier species might be able to grow.

DH's tree planting was delightful to me in part because it shows how much his attitude toward plants and gardening and nature in general has changed. He has always been an impatient, get-things-done-now kind of guy, not an approach that works with gardening. As the years have passed he has learned to appreciate the often modest signs of growth and development, nursing along miniscule oaks that may put on two inches of growth in a year. He has even gotten fond of our whip snakes! He's continued to learn through his seventies and eighties, and it's inspiring.

@subk3: I know I'm running on here, but will say, keep it up! The world seems to be getting worse in so many (not all) ways, but at least we can work on creating healthier conditions on our little patches of earth. Also, I don't know anything about horses, but that foal is beautiful.

Melissa, it sounds like you're doing God's work. Kudos!

My property was mostly weeds and depleted soil...after 5 years or so of collecting all the leaves off the various sycamore trees, oak trees, maple trees, and ash trees on the property (one of the major selling points why I bought the place!), as well as collecting leaves from neighbors, and spreading them on the ground 6" deep (or more) from one place to the next (changing the areas each year), the soil is starting to improve. When I dig a hole now I can see where the upper 6-8" of soil is noticeably darker and richer than it is farther below. And the battle of the weeds has largely been won, except for the European silene and the Japanese knotweed in the back, both of which are very deep-rooted and will take several more years to defeat.

Oh - and mycorhizzae! I dip all my plants in mycorhizzae before planting, and also have occasionally broadcast them on the soil. I think that helps too.

But I've made sure to leave some areas where I don't pile the leaves, so the native ground-nesting bees have patches of bare dry soil to make their tunnels every year.

Oh darn it all!
@summers- you know, looking at the full size and form of that grand maple, the way the limbs (and small branches growing from the trunk) the form says "Silver Maple" or a strangely gigantic Red Maple. Pictures really are more challenging than in person so the tree itself can "tell me" haha!

For age, I've come across a couple of formulas, but I would concur your estimate of approximately 200 years probably isn't too far off; naturally size vs size, a Sugar will be older than a Silver.

Michigan Trees University of Michigan

Sugar and Black Maple Leaves (I've collected nearly every species in the book!)

Steven

Slumgullion, thanks for the info. I will try those nurseries you have mentioned. I bought Li and persimmons from Burnt Ridge. I planted honey jar trees about 10'(?) apart at the PA property. The previous owner left us a small orchard, I added on jujubes, hawthorns, apricots.Asian pear, Fuji apple. Two Canadian apricot trees were long gone, didn't make through last summer's heat, we had a terrible dry & hot summer. It says online Honey Jar is Self-fruitful. Maybe I need a few more.

Thanks Steve! I will check on the leaves after snow melts. Will post photos. I’d love to know what kind of maples we have here. They all lined up by the driveway and also by the street. I call this place “ The Maple Place”. :-)

For 2nd thought, could these trees be oaks? Looking at your maple book photos, I don’t remember seeing any seeds /helicopters........

Hmm; certain aspects of the bark resemble oak, it certainly wouldn't be Burr Oak because it features epicormic, twiggy branches down low and I think its bark is more furrowed.
Have you seen any cups from acorns perhaps?
I may seem unknowledgeable for not having a definitive conclusion and I am sorry for that, but I'd love to see more and I know we can figure it out together!

Steven

As an example of what is present here and I hope to enhance while also maintaining back yard gardening/rose space, here is a shot from across the road looking to the southeast of where I live. The first two trees are the Bitternut Hickories and the third, southern most is a Black Maple/Sugar Maple/hybrid maybe. The other large Sugar Maple is to the left (East) and not as beautiful as it once was.

Steven

Thanks Steve. I don’t see any acorns. But some of the leaves don’t look like maple. Here is a photo.

I will ask you again in the spring when new leaves come up. That would be easier to identify. :-)

I am loving this tree talk! I learn so much from you all.Melissa I can't believe your husband planted 100 trees! Mine is good at doing what I ask, but that might be over and above the call of duty!

Why thank you! I do see sugar maple in there and something that looks a lot like Elm!

Steven

@summersrhythm_z6a it sounds like you're planting them close enough together. Mine are about 10-30 feet apart (distance varies; but I made sure to put the one I felt pretty sure was self-fruitful on the most upwind side, since jujubes are wind pollinated, IIRC...it was several years ago so I may be misremembering the research I did!).

Thanks slumgullion. Hopefully I will get some jujubes this year. :-) I saw one gardener at the orchard forum rooted jujube cuttings, I might give it a try too. A cheaper way to have more jujubes trees but it would be a long wait for the fruit. :-)

Thanks Steve. Is Elm is a good tree to have? Or it's a problem child like ash.

As long as it's not Siberian Elm (which where I am is surprisingly common). SE has a messy, weepy look and often bleeds down the trunk. Highly susceptible to wind and ice damage. Smaller leaves than native elms. Of course it's highly resistant to the Elm diseases because it evolved along side them. Much like the sad situation with the American Chestnut.

Steven

American, Slippery, and Cork Elm are native but susceptible to Dutch Elm Disease and phloem necrosis. American Elms are large, grand, vase shaped shade trees at their best. Sadly, very few mature, old trees remain due to the foreign pestilence they face. I'll have to take photos of two I know of in "my town". We have lost several over the years, and I only know of two locally now.

Ash used to be very good before the invasive Emerald Ash Borers. Are you referring to them as problem trees because of that or their abundant samaras or something I have not experienced?
White Ash in particular formed huge, magnificent specimens before the bugs came.

Steven

Thanks Steve! You're a tree pro indeed. :-)

Well; most of that I know it's from reference books, and from quite long ago.
Because I feel it's an important program to kids and I myself enjoyed it greatly, I wish to mention something my local schools' elementaries (our Big 8) has (I believe it's still going) an event called "Science Olympiad" in which students from all schools compete in applied academics.
In the years I competed in the "Tree and Leaf Finder", I took gold/first every single year.
So fun!

Steven

@summersrhythm_z6a You might try grafting if you want to expand the number of varieties you have. Lots of varieties available here: https://fruitwoodnursery.com/fruit-tree-scion-and-cuttings-wood/jujube-scionwood-ziziphus-jujuba

Thanks a lot! I got on their mailing list, they will notify me when jujube root stocks are available. I am not good at rose grafting or rooting , hope it’s easier on fruit trees . Definitely will give it a try.

You can graft directly onto a branch on one of your current trees. No need to wait for rootstock!

Here's another source: http://www.chinesereddate.com/about-us.html

Sorry....I've gone down a rabbit hole, planning the future expansion of my jujube collection!!!

Oh, that’s right. Going back to the nursery site. :-)