How deep are you planning to bury the spruce roots?

tj

"Dirt" from the garden IS garden soil!! If you are just using it as a topdressing or mulch, you don't need to add anything to it. Just allow it to dry and break up any big clods. You can amend with some compost if you like but avoid adding this to any planting holes as you will have impacted the soil interface and you could seriously alter drainage. Add no sand or perlite if a clay base - they wont help and could make things worse.

And watch how much you raise the soil level around your Norway spruce. More than an inch or two can smother the root system and eventually kill the tree.

I would amend all the soil with compost or mushroom compost. Mix it all up. Some folks mix in sand; some want to ban it. I have tried adding sand and it makes a nicer soil IF you've also added organic matter to your clay. I have also used peat and sand with good results.

After you've planted I would mulch with one of the above composts 2 or 3 inches deep at the deepest. If you use the mushroom compost you won't need any fertilizer for this year.

Adding sand to a clay based soil has long been established as a really poor idea unless you add it in a large quantity - like 50% of the volume. Less than that can result in a hard, unworkable soil more akin to brick or adobe than to a decent friable planting soil. Loosening or improving clay soil with compost or organic matter has long been the prescribed method........and for good reason!

btw, mushroom compost has an almost nonexistent NPK (1-1-1) so not really adding anything in the way of fertility. The clay itself probably has much greater nutrient load as nutrients tend to bind with clay.

pine bark fines will turn that sticky clay into beautiful, black loam after a year.

Nasty, sticky clay often isn't--it's just deflocculated soil. It depends on where you live, but clays are a lot rarer than people think.

Even so, plain soil is usually just fine as a garden "additive" regardless of its constitution. As noted, just don't dig it in too far to change the overall makeup of the soil layers.

"I will add it to the latest to be established hosta garden around big Norway spruce."

Depending on the amount, be careful not to bury the spruce's roots too deeply. Those roots don't want to go too much underground from where they currently are. If you're dusting a little soil atop the roots, that's fine. If you're adding three inches, that's a problem.

If you are planting around a tree, try to find pockets of usable soil between the roots and amend those pockets *lightly* when planting your hosta. Then mulch with compost around the new plants. This means you may have to plant where you can, not necessarily where you'd like.

I would advise against making any changes that would affect the whole area under the tree, like building a lasagna bed under the spruce, or adding any soil on top of the roots.

If you have extra dirt and can't spread it around your property, you can always put it on Nextdoor or Craigslist, or sell it to a contractor.

first.. lets get this straight.. words mean things ...

mother earth is soil ...

the stuff in pots is media.. or medium ... but i dont fit in mediums anymore.. so i call it media ...

DIRT is what all over you .. and usually tracked into the house ... after youve played in either of the above ...

got it.. lol ...

frankly ... find a spot behind the garage or somewhere outta sight.. and do your lasagna thing ... and use the result in fall.. or next spring ...

i would not ...potentially ....... ruin my existing beds .. with an experiment gone bad ...

roots need air.. as much as water ... and it is not recommended to ever add too much SOIL over tree roots else you might harm the tree ... unfortunately.. that happens in tree time.. counted in decades ... so ten years down the line,.. you might be wondering why you tree is suffering .... we see this a lot with driveways dozed into prior forest land when there is new construction ... or peeps wanting to keep very old trees to close to a new house build ... not only the heaping of significant soil on roots.. but the impact of the equipment driving in there ... and then 3 to 5 years later.. we see posts about why are my trees dying ... etc ..

im sure you are not working on that scale.. its just examples ... fwiw ...

anyway.. make it 2 projects.. year one.. reclaiming the clay muck ... and use it in year two ...

ken

ps: are you sure you dont want a little mountain next to your pond... go all 3 dimensional on the pond project?? .. then you dont have to haul it anywhere .. think hard.. work smart.. lol ...

If I were the OP I can imagine being overwhelmed with all the suggestions. But I need to clear the air of all the purposeful misinformation here. If you buy a truck load of topsoil in the Pittsburgh area what you will get is the local clay mixed with sand and then shredded to make a mixture that "spreads well". No organic matter.

When I suggest mixing in mushroom manure what I do is spread two inches of mushroom manure over the entire area and dig it in. Then I spread another inch and dig it again. So what I'm doing is adding 3 inches of organic matter to the ten or 12 inches of clay. When one says that the NPK is 1-1-1 that's a percentage of the weight of the matter you add to your now soil. GG knows this because I've told her this several times at least.

As far as the buryng spruce roots there's a plan here with Trees as part of the name of trhe plan. One word. They buried the trees they left when they graded the property. Big majestic oak trees buried as much as 5 feet deep. I've been referring to it as "Treesdead".

"GG knows this because I've told her this several times at least."

LOL!! John, I knew that loooong before you ever said or wrote anything about it, Learned all about it from my Soil Sciences classes several decades ago when I was obtaining my horticulture degree. While I know you are trying to be helpful, much of the "purposeful misinformation" as you call it is coming from you!

From the Illinois Extension Service: "One garden misconception repeated routinely is to till sand into clay soil to break up the clay structure and facilitate better drainage. The idea stems from the fact that if clay is the smallest soil particle leading to poor drainage, and sand is the largest soil particle causing fast drainage, mixing the two will equal out to well-drained soil. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. When sand mixes with clay, it creates a soil structure akin to concrete. To create a real change in a clayey soil structure, you would need to add a 1:1 ratio of sand to clay. Considering the actual volume of clay soil underfoot, that equates to a lot of sand.

It is far more practical to use organic matter to help break up clay soil. Compost is your best bet, but organic matter can come from other sources like wood mulch, composted manure, shredded leaves, or even cover crops."

Or check out this Canadian university website: https://gardening.usask.ca/article-list-soils/misconception-adding-sand-to-clay-soils.php And there are score of others.

Thanks for the suggestions, one and all! Let's see if I can add pictures.

It is a 50 year old tree. I would be outside the drip line and no visible roots. The two 3' urns will have beautiful Victory hostas as suggested by the group. I have lots of space and like a true member of this group ...I WANT MORE!!! So I was thinking wouldn't hosta make pretty shoes for this tree.

And I believe in soil prep, although I heel in hostas where I must. I am in an area that has eroded million of years. The bedrock is 30' below. This sticky almost blue clay, I have done soil maps as an engineering tech. Behind those trees is a creek, golf course on other side of the creek.

I want a backyard full of hosta, perennials and some annuals. My husband likes the grass and English ivy. I shake my head slowly but knowing I can't win completely.

Digging the hole for the fountain hoping I get stronger. ha ha. I dug out the weigela and replanted it. Four more inches to go maybe six.

Here is my work in progress, I am sure there will be a hosta in it. Can't make a garden without one!

Back to new garden, it is outside the drip line, no visible roots and about a two inch cover with dirt and newspaper to kill grass. And not all the way around. Thoughts???

For that size fountain I would just spread it over the spruce. At 75 I began a new garden. The north line was 65 feet long and has spruces the entire distance. My garden is about 20 feet from the tree line and I pulled out roots 15 feet into the garden, with a shovel and a hatchet. You get stronger, I call it garden therapy.

I would guess you spruces roots span at least a 25 foot circle around the truck. I don't see a problem with your spreading your amended clay over that area.

Oh, that's lovely.

I have to say, I'm not a fan of piling dirt atop tree roots at all. Roots need water and air. Without sufficient oxygen, they die. Deprive them too quickly over too large an area and the tree can't send new roots and the tree may die with it. It's not unheard-of.

But if you (cough) accidentally put a hosta in, heeling it as you have to, and maybe accidentally (cough) put in an additional inch or two immediately around the hosta of that extra dirt to get it in, well, what happens in Kansas stays in Kansas, yes? Just don't do the entire area.

That soil will settle, but so should the hosta, a bit. Keep an eye that it doesn't heel out. Note that this is not wonderful advice, so add as little dirt as you can. If you add a bit of compost to that, not a problem. Just keep in mind that the compost will also decay off, requiring oxygen (which comes from the soil and perks in fairly slowly, particularly in fine-grained soils). You can top dress with compost all you want, though, up to about four inches. The hostas and tree will all love that.

As to the new garden, add the soil. Don't mix with too much compost (again, that compost rots...it will disappear and the soil will settle over time, adjusting downward). But feel free to top dress as much as you like with compost, bark mulch, or whatever you want, it improves the soil to no end.as it slowly works in as lower-grade organics that won't change the soil grade. There are no tree roots here, so you can work with the soil to your heart's content.

And that is going to be gorgeous.

"For that size fountain I would just spread it over the spruce."

John also has a point. What can't be filled back in isn't likely to be more than, what, a tenth of an inch? Scatter it back around the tree line. No big deal.

Ok, John I like your thoughts about the compost, But where do I put this dirt. I tried the suggest of behind the fountain and we are now going to have a second top section but it won't need as much soil as I have in various wheelbarrows, carts and buckets. sigh... I guess I could dig that next garden, hoping my husband doesn't have apoplexy because of his below grass and English ivy. sigh....

I'll chime in.. yes, keep digging out all the "good dirt" around for your pond, and you could scatter that around uphill of the tree- give nature it's own inclination to trickle it down. or you could save it to help backfill in once the pond is set.

Dig that good dirt out more than you need, and stop when you hit the clay at first. Clean up your hole of the dirt and use the clay layer as a rough guide for the "floor" of your pond.

Then start digging down the clay stuff, set it aside.. keep the "floor" level, backfilling with clay as needed for the base pad of your pond. Once your pond base is sitting right, take some of that clay and slurry it up a bit to pour into the hole by a good couple inches to help seat in the pond in with the cement the spot came with- the clay. Be sure to weight your pond liner down to the floor, otherwise it might float up rather than seat in.

Then start filling the rest of the void with the reserved dirt, and keep tamping and settling it down till it's well filled. Then with the extra dirt toss it off to the uphill of the tree.

By jove, I got it! Over by the upside down firepit! that I will move. And dump the blue clay soil, dump some compost and leafy matter(I have plenty of leaf matter, thanks to the neighbors with oak and sycamore trees.) Let is sit for a year or two with gentle stirring and it will the next hosta garden!!! And after I finish the fountain garden, I will start the spruce garden, cursing grass and talking gently to the spruce, taking care of his roots as they were my own toes.

I am a tree hugger from the 70's and won't change my ways!!

Flawless. By that time, it'll settle beautifully, oxygen consumption is certainly no issue, and it'll be ready for use in any setting you wish.

n2hostas - You asked me where to put that soil. And you're worried about your husbands grass. I am a firm believer in spreading an inch of mushroom compost over an entire lawn. Even better if you sow some grass seed first. So let's amend the spread the soil over the lawn under the spruce tree idea. Mix one part soil with 2 parts mushroom manure and spread it over an area you pick.

The grass will come in very green and lush. The existing grass will poke up thru that mixture in a week; in the spring and the new grass won't be far behind. Another bonus, if you do spread it under the spruce tree the tree will be greener than you ever saw it.

Don't buy the grass at a big box store, let your husband pick his favorite seed.

I base this on buying the mushroom manure bulk by the yard. I have no idea what may be in the bags. Another thing you can use compost you made, and the ideas posted above will all work. However I assume that you don't have enough compost to meet your current gardening requirements, so the mushroom compost will fill this niche.

Apart from sand, don't see much to disagree with above. If you're going to mix the soil / muck you dug up and eventually use as top dressing - volume matters, so I'd go with adding whatever bulky organic materials you can get/have at hand (cheap).

In the spirit of everyone making suggestions based on their existing preconceptions, my go-to is wood chips/tree trimmings (leaves in that mix good too). As much as you can get and have space for (and my experience is that too much is so much that I've never got there). Mix some and mulch, pile up and mulch later, whatever is convenient. Apart from lawns, goes pretty much anywhere (although don't dig it in).

Around hostas (in my conditions anyway) - looks nice and the hostas grow well, helps keep the moisture moderated/buffered.

While I wouldn't go overboard around and under a tree, I think wood chips/soil mix would be unlikely to smother an established spruce; a mix like this should be let air through and probably improve conditions for roots (worms and other soil beasties doing their thing). I'll cast cheap seeds around for some colour in season.

id use some of it to mound between the pond.. and the yellow wagon .. and put some height there .. with good soil on top ... without burying the shrubs too much ....

once the plastic tub is in ... its going to be rather flat-ish presentation ... unless you ahve a giant cement calvin to pee in the pond ....lol.. cant find an image of that.. you might be the first ... but then you would have to take a cement sculpture class ... but i digress.. apparently.. lol ...

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffnt&q=calvin+peeing&iax=images&ia=images

dont recall precisely where you are.. but whats the winter plan for the pond ... full emptying so it doesnt freeze solid ... or a heater??? ... or what ... not sure what that has to do with this post.. but you need to think ahead.. with what you want to put in the pond.. as to winter storage of that stuff.. or fish ...

ken

btw.... you dont need a heater for winter... as long as the water pump is running.. moving water wont freeze ... unless the power goes out for an extended period in the dead of winter ... but i digress again.. hit send now....