Jmm, there are costs and benefits to every decision. The kind of shutdown Australia has tolerated comes with significant costs.
Just because one country has chosen a path of economic and social contraction, it does not follow that is the only viable path. Personally, being jabbed and continuing to mask is enough precaution for me.
Other countries have rolled out the welcome mat for jabbed tourists. Why would I think I am in a better position to decide what is best for them?
For those calling for a further curtailment of travel, perhaps that will come again. For now there is a middle path available, and endorsed by every physician I know, and I for one am grateful.

I can totally understand where you are coming from, JMM. I feel I am protecting the un vaxxed by being vaxxed and masking (again). What are the unvaxxed doing to help?

I assume that the travel protocols are well considered by experts who, like me, are balancing pros and cons.

Zalco - oh, don't get me wrong. I wasn't criticising the choices other countries or people make (well, except for Florida and Texas), I was just pointing out that ours is a very different reality here in Oz. The whole Covid experience has been unlike yours or much of the rest of the world because of the way it's been dealt with, so that the notion of international travel seems to belong to another dimension for us. That's why the conversation seems a bit surreal to me.

I might add that we're probably more aware of what quarantine can involve than Canadians or Americans are since the policies here are so much more rigorously enforced than elsewhere. You arrive in Australia from overseas, and you go into mandatory quarantine, with security guards making sure you stay put in your room. You do not get the option of self-quarantining at home. Being locked in a hotel room with no open windows 24/7 for 14 days doesn't appeal, especially if I have to pay for the privilege.

(I'm not sure that the economic burden of all our lockdowns will be much greater though than those of your own, though, and of course we don't have the death toll of the US and much of Europe).

Suicides are up 20% due to isolation.

They are? I haven't seen that published anywhere. On the contrary, I have seen articles such as "Why Suicides Have Decreased During the COVID-19 Pandemic"

"I assume that the travel protocols are well considered by experts who, like me, are balancing pros and cons."

Of course. The thing is, the pros and cons are very different for New Zealand and Australia than for the countries where Covid has run amuck. The balance is different, and so are the protocols. Here, we're hoping some form of international travel will be allowed (at the moment, we cannot leave Australia) towards the end of the year, but right now, it seems a distant dream. At a minimum, we have to get to 70% of the population fully vaccinated (though 80% is the target), and I'm not sure that's going to be possible, given the anti-vaxxers and the vaccine-hesitants.

Justerrilynn, when I was getting my Covid test above done, a young man was in the room working and he said he had had Covid and the vaccine and his number was >2000! Sky high! Don't know if your DH has had Covid and is vaccinated or not, but if your numbers are anywhere near the young man I talked too, since you've had Covid, you should feel very safe. "The booster is haunted." That's funny!

Eileen if you haven't seen your son in California for 3 years, because of Covid, that is just...I don't even know what to say about that. There are vaccinations and therapies.

Do those of you who are determined to be homebound, have kids? This type of behavior of keeping kids at home, like you want us to, and no contact with others, especially for this long, is much more harmful than them getting Covid. It is extremely rare for kids to have bad side effects and die from it. More kids die from the flu than Covid. We never even wore masks for the flu. Yes, I know, those ragamuffins may bring it home to you-but you are vaccinated.

“What are the unvaxxed doing to help?”

Very little.

Sorry it is 16 percent really i rounded up. in the first four months it was down but in the last two waves it continued to go up. America is not the only country and our lock downs are light compared to much of the world.

Bunny, I am so happy to work in and have a child attending a ct public school were vaccination as of today is being made mandatory!

Vaccination, and masking, is mandatory at my kids universities, One of them will also have weekly testing.

I'm so tired of these arguments. You all know what is safe and what isn't. I'm living my life with a few basic guidelines: wear a mask in stores, avoid crowds, indoor dining and concerts ( sorry to miss James Taylor next week), don't engage with those who won't vax or wear masks, and know the positivity rates where you live and travel and plan accordingly. Oh, and stay out of florida. We have a few trips planned and will assess the risks (to ourselves and others) as the time to leave draws closer.

Roarah, according to a quick google search, most nations saw a decrease in suicide rates over the past year. Japan, with its increase, seems to be the outlier.

Suicide rates drop during covid

We are going to Cabo in October for Fall Break, but Mexico isn't very strict.

Jojo, The article is about last years estimated rates. Although the cdc has yet to release the 2020 suicide death stats, they did release this report in July. Suicide attempts treated in EDs throughout the pandemic went up 31 percent in 2020 to in girls up 51 percent in 21. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm

roarah, that's an interesting article. Thanks for the link.

I'm so tired of these arguments. You all know what is safe and what isn't.

Yes. And, we have to reckon our personal choices with a virus. Personally, we can justify anything.

Fori

55 minutes ago

It would be cool if we could at least wait for kid vaccinations.

Just posted by my county, so we're not talking about college-aged kids:

Our public health officials have worked diligently to keep the Board of County Commissioners up to date about the current Delta variant situation, including the latest data and projections. Put simply, there is an alarming escalation in COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations in Washington County and the worst health outcomes are being experienced by those who are unvaccinated. Many of these unvaccinated people are children ineligible for any of the available vaccines.

Our DD and family have lived in London for the past 19 months. Of course we have been unable to visit them due to quarantining. Surprise, she is pregnant and due December 26th. They are expecting DH and me to be there at that time, and we REALLY want to be. We are so nervous that we will not be able to go.

FYI - i just saw this on Bloomberg business news. I'd consider this very reliable info.

Holding pattern? United and other airlines soon might not be flying as widely as they hoped. The EU is likely to discuss reintroducing travel restrictions on visitors from the U.S. because of the rise in positive cases, according to a person familiar. The U.S. now far exceeds the EU's infection rate threshold of 75 cases per 100,000 people in the past 14 days. The restrictions would cover nonessential travel.

Some European countries were much too quick to allow unvaskinated leisure travelers from the US.

I think any country that admits unvaccinated travellers from anywhere is asking for trouble. Sometimes, political and economic pressures override common sense.

Jmm - very few do. Those that do require testing.

Most require vaccines, some vaccines and testing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/countries-travel-entry-no-vaccine-jab-b1895296.html

Most countries have strict testing protocols for vaccinated AND unvaccinated travelers. And while the US can (and is) using their ability to soften the horrific economic repercussions of the pandemic by providing government assistance (paid for with magic beans, I suppose) many tourist destinations do not have a strong enough economy to weather this crisis. They NEED tourism. Every local person we met in the Bahamas was thrilled that the US was getting vaccinated! They really want us back.

Nini, your "magic beans" line gave me a sardonic giggle.

I am not smart enough to know what the right answer is. Over the last 18 months, every time I think I know something, the facts or circumstances or guidance or whatever changes and I'm back to not knowing anything for sure again.

Here is my concern with the whole "shut it down!" mentality. My spouse runs our municipal water treatment operation. So it's his job to make safe drinking water. Safe drinking water is pretty important, right?

The "shut it down" mentality has caused significant problems for him several times over the last 18 months. It turns out the world is interconnected (who knew, LOL) - and so "shutting it down" in one place has huge ripple effects. They've faced chlorine shortages, metal shortages, circuit board shortages, other chemical shortages - and he knows of one water plant that was within 8 hours of completely running out of chlorine . No chlorine = no safe drinking water my friends.

He said from Day 1, last March, that "shutting it down" is not actually possible or sustainable, for all kinds of reasons.

The world is so interconnected anymore. I think we need to focus on how to smartly keep things moving, rather than focus on how to NOT keep things moving. We know how to smartly keep things moving. Science is pretty awesome like that. Of course there is some risk in that approach, but to me it's better to move forward as safely as we can, relying on the science to guide us - than it is to try to prolong some short of shutdown. After 18 months we're seeing how that shutdown scenario plays out, and it's not working. IMO of course

FYI - i just saw this on Bloomberg business news. I'd consider this very reliable info.

mntrdredux - do you have a link?

The most recent article I can find says they decided to not impose travel restrictions on the US.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-09/eu-won-t-impose-travel-curbs-on-u-s-despite-rise-in-covid-cases

Cruise passengers that depart the ship in the Bahamas will have to show proof of vaccination starting sept. 3.

https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/bahamas-emergency-order-cruises-proof-of-vaccination/67-cac6f8f3-2c37-4b58-9360-e8d5350d27d1

I leave for Italy in 2 weeks with my whole family to visit family there. We made the plans back in the spring when we all had gotten vaccinated and things were looking up for travel, and we’re still going. When we were first planning to travel we originally thought to “see America first” but now I feel much safer going to Italy than to Florida or any other state in the US at this point. And quite frankly, the state governors that are mucking things up for everyone will not ever get a penny of my travel cash.

I’ve never stopped wearing a mask in public and most of the people in my area are masked too and I’m in a well-vaccinated state.

I think chances are slim that I would end up failing a test on the way home but I am prepared to deal with those consequences.

Alot of the EU has similar rates per capita as the us. The uk is presently at 318/100000. Us is actually lower at 304/100000. Spain and belgium are also high.

We have a trip to Europe planned in December and a trip to the Caribbean in October. Everything we booked is refundable. We have all been vaxxed (including my 16 year old son) for many months now and I have gone back to wearing masks in public indoor spaces. If we are permitted to travel we will.

Plans to fly to WA end of Sept and see our granddaughter are teetering on the edge. The incidence of RSV in older toddlers is trending up and DGD begins preschool next week with exposure she has never experienced. Even though the school requires masks indoors (very small, only 10 kids) that's akin to herding cats. I have a friend here whose 2 yr old DGD is in the hospital with RSV and pneumonia. Honestly I'm ready to move just so I can see her.

Just a fyi of recent experiences with travel,

DD returned from 10 days in Italy recently. Masks required everywhere. I don't know if she was required to show proof of jab though. Testing tents on numberous corners and jab locations in many places. She said the Italians were very serious about masking and would call out in public those who did not wear one. Hand washing stations had been installed in many locations and people are encouraged to use them. No willie-nillie attitudes according to what she witnessed and experienced. She has the jab as did her travel companion. She had to get a rapid test upon leaving the country of which a negative result is required to board your plane and avoid a quantine on your own dime. In other news, she said it was a good time to be a tourist in Italy as tourism was way down and crowds to see the usual attractions were slight. The locals expressed happiness to see American tourists again to DD and her companion.

I recently returned from a trip cross country requiring five planes and a total of 40 hours travel time to and from. In the airports everyone was masked as were people on planes. Each of my five planes were full with no empty seats. I was not asked to show my jab card anywhere though. I brought it with me, but no one asked to see it. When I got to my destination (moving another DD cross country), that area, MD, I did not see many masks. Prior to our arrival, the state's gov said he would not have a mask mandate in place. During my stay there, things seemed to change (I was so busy on this trip I didn't have a chance to watch local news much) and masks appeared on faces, for which I was relieved to see.

Both first DD and I had testing today as it took this long to obtain an appt. We both feel well and are anticipating a negative result. We both tend to come down with a cold or flu after any air travel. This time, neither of us did. Very unusual. We both feel that wearing a mask does offer some protection not only against germs being sent your way, but of receiving those germs as for both of us, this could very well be the first time we did not get sick with some horrible bug after flying.

Yes, if you are able to travel and willing to assume some risk, it is a terrific time to do so.

Here is my DD at the Trevi fountain a decade ago with me and her siblings, and then at the Trevi earlier this month (noon on a weekend no less!)

The difference in those two pics is striking.

We are still planning trips, but only in the US and with an outdoorsy focus. Maybe we’re in denial thinking this is safe(ish) but… we are vaxxed and will wear kn95 masks on our one planned flight (well, two flights, there and back) next month.

Many people don’t take the time to adequately consider the risks involved in international travel. Some things to consider before traveling overseas: Who will stay with you if you test positive and cannot come home. What will the others in your group do if one in the party tests positive. How will you navigate the local medical system. Where will you go the moment you get a positive result. Did you really pack enough necessities (prescriptions) for a longer stay. Will your rental car be extended during the extra quarantine and do you know how long that will be.

Who will take care of your pets and home and job and bills while you wait to recover. Same for the support person who has to stay and care for you. What about the villa/hotel/cafe staff who were exposed by you while you were positive but not yet tested. Will you contact them or try and go under the radar. Will your family at home worry sick if you have C19 while overseas. Are you prepared for extra costs for the pet sitter, the yard, the cost of changing a ticket, extended hotel costs, etc.

Who will stay with you if you test positive and cannot come home. What will the others in your group do if one in the party tests positive. (I think you are Q'd together if that happens?)

How will you navigate the local medical system. This is a standard q when one travels. We have total coverage. I've had good experiences with this in the past, once for me and once for my Mom.

Where will you go the moment you get a positive result. You don't decide this, I think it depends on the country

Did you really pack enough necessities (prescriptions) for a longer stay. NA, but when you are in Q you can get deliveries.

Will your rental car be extended during the extra quarantine and do you know how long that will be. Why do you need a car in Q?

Who will take care of your pets and home and job and bills while you wait to recover. Our dog stays w a friend/breeder, we have a caretaker, the rest can be done remotely.

What about the villa/hotel/cafe staff who were exposed by you while you were positive but not yet tested. each country has a tracing protocol

Will your family at home worry sick if you have C19 while overseas. Nah, we are all healthy and vaxxed and going to first world destinations.

Are you prepared for extra costs for the pet sitter, the yard, the cost of changing a ticket, extended hotel costs, etc. Always have to be.

Good questions @ccrunneroklahoma. Several years ago we had a friend who had a emergency medical situation in Mexico. It was awful. It has always made me think. He actually had his colon rupture (no prior illness, no indications). He and his wife were traveling alone together. I don't know who it was worse for. This is a couple who were not without financial means. However, they soon had financial difficulties. They were required to pay in cash for medical expenses. He was in intensive care, had surgery, etc. Of course they had not carried a large amount of cash on them. At some point, their pastor and another good friend flew to Mexico with money. The couple also ended up having to be air-lifted out of Mexico. Well, the husband. The son flew to Mexico and flew back with his mother, the man was air-lifted. He was not in condition to be flown as far as Tennessee, they got him to a hospital in Florida IIRC and he stayed there till able to travel to Tennessee. The couple did both feel that they received good medical care in Mexico, in fact, the drs at the US hospital commented on that.

Yeah Mexico is notorious for wanting cash for medical treatment. Not sure why the bank could not wire them money? For Mexico, many reccommend buying a separate policy if your credit card or personal health insurance does not cover it.

I suppose it depends on your coverage, but we had no trouble recouping our funds when my husband needed medical attention in Mexico. He was attended in our hotel room, by a doctor from the local hospital and 2 assistants. A third stayed out in the hallway with a stretcher in case it was needed. The cost for this plus 2 prescriptions and a nebulizer was 184.00 Cdn (two years ago) A friend who slipped on a tile floor and shattered her kneecap (also in Mexico) had to be hospitalized and they did have some squabbles with their insurance company. So, as with anything, know before you go. Forewarned is forearmed.

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply they had trouble recouping their funds! That wasn't the issue at all. It was just a very scary situation, especially for the wife and children. I can't remember why the two daughters couldn't go to Mexico, but they were beside themselves with worry. I'm not sure why they couldn't/wouldn't wire money???

Hey, we are in the irresponsible and selfish camp, as we are in France right now. Our logic is a bit different: we have a place here and our current plan if we test positive is to quarantine at "home" We are vaccinated, however, we know it can happen. We do not plan to go indoors to anything and to stick to dining outdoors - we still stick to takeaway and cooking at home. When we do venture out, it will be outside. France has implemented a "pass sanitaire" (digital vaccine registration or clear test), to allow entrance to indoor and outdoor restaurant bars, restaurants, and cafes, plus events, theatres, etc. Large malls are also included. We plan to stick to outdoor activities. 100% of people are complying with masking indoors, but very few outdoors (even if required in some areas -- I heard Paris is better with this.

France has fewer cases per capita than the US. It varies by department, with the interior very low and coastal areas quite high (but rapidly plunging in this department). The vaccination rate is very high now, despite a late start, 76% for the first dose in this area and going up daily as the youngers comply. Right now, I'm literally feeling safer than being at home when going about normal tasks like grocery shopping.

I understand that Spain, Germany, Italy and all but the UK are seeing lower rates than the US right now. Definitely safer than the southeastern US.

Flight through Germany was not full. The worst legs are domestic US, with poor mask wearing behavior. The planes all have high efficiency filters that help, and the long legs are still not full. In Germany, cloth masks are not allowed on the plane. In some areas in Bavaria, you must actually have a FPP2, N95, or KN95 level mask,

Now, off to the boulangerie, mask in hand, to grab some pain au chocolat.

Looks like Americans may have to review their travel arrangements again if they're planning to travel to Europe:

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eu-to-reimpose-entry-ban-on-travellers-from-us-5-other-third-countries-on-monday-sources-say/

I realize this isn't mandatory, but I imagine quite a few member states will go along with the restrictions on entry for non-essential purposes.

*unvaccinated* Americans may have to review their travel arrangements again if they're planning to travel to Europe.

Yes, unvaccinated only

I believe the EU has today removed the US from the 'safe' list which could mean quarantine and testing for US citizens, although each country can choose how to enforce, or whether to enforce, restrictions.

So far as i have read. it applies to unvaccinated US citizens.

The US as a country has been taken off the safe list, so in theory it applies to anyone travelling from the US. How individual countries calibrate their policies is up to them. Most will probably continue to admit vaccinated Americans, but that's not a sure fire thing, and the lack of reciprocity from the US in admitting EU citizens rankles. I could see this being used as a bargaining chip.

We got an email from Delta airlines yesterday afternoon that we have to have a negative test 72 hours before we land in Italy, effective 9/1. We fly on 9/2 and we’re scrambling for test appointments right now.

Oh my, good luck KW

@Kitchenwitch111 - make sure to also read if they require a specific test or which of the different tests they allow. We found this varied and not all countries allowed the same test.

Lyfia is correct about having the correct test. be certain to follow the rules italy has set.