Thank you for sharing!! strawchicago z5 I do have a couple of questions, around what time of the year do you put them in the garage and cover with a black bag? Do I need to acclimate them or just put them in the garage when temperature is below a certain degree? And do you continue to water them throughout the winter months? Thank you so much for all the information, I look forward to your reply!

Jolene ElI High Country Roses recommended winterizing roses in the ground after 1 week of temp. at 20's. For roses in pots, I put them in my garage the first day that it dips to 20's, around Thanksgiving. I left band-size roses outside when it snowed in the 30's, and they were OK.

Temp. here in my zone 5a dips down to the teens and below 0 F after Christmas. When the temp. outside is in the 10's, I put a thick thermal banket over my pots. My pots don't sit on the cold cement floor, they sit on a table. I like air-pots since the bottom is NOT in contact with the cold floor.

Roses died in pots inside my unheated garage when:

1) I used acidic rain water rather than my alkaline tap water at pH 9 to water roses. Acid plus freezing cold temp. kills any root. Also I gave them too much water at once.

2) I used a wet potting soil (mostly peatmoss) that becomes an ice-block. Or I kept rootings in a vermiculite & sand mix, which is too wet.

3) I took off the thermal blanket too soon, and pots get dried out or temps dip low again.

4) I bring pots out too soon in April, that's when hungry animals like chipmunks and squirrels jump into pots to eat roses. Tiny roses die instantly with freezing rain in April.

Roses survive my zone 5a winter in pots, in unheated & dark garage when:

1) I give them just enough water once a month (for tiny roots), and twice a month (for bigger gallon-size root). I use my alkaline tap water at pH 9.

2) When temp. dips to the teens, I cover pots with a thick thermal blanket, that prevents drying out of pots.

3) At bottom of pot, I used a potting soil high in bark chips (fast draining and barely moist), like Pennington potting soil at Walmart. Roses don't like wet feet, and wet cold feet is worse.

4) The best time to bring roses out of the garage is in May. That's when we are safe from freezing rain in April that killed my decades old trees last year.

The instruction from Antique Rose Emporium says to WINTER PROTECT own root if the temp is below 28 F. That translate to bringing tiny own root (in pots) into the garage for the winter.

I'm glad I read what you wrote, Straw. I was going to use our stored rainwater to water before the roses go into the garage. I'll use tap water instead. :) Thanks!

Hi strawchicago z5, I got confused with Pelletized lime and gypsum, what is your recommendation on when to use Lime and when to use gypsum? And does the variety of the rose matter? Thank you!!

Jolene ElI Others ask me the same, and here's the difference:

Pelletized lime is best for dark-green leaves like Sonia Rykiel, Well Being, Abraham Darby, Dee-lish. These prefer alkaline pH, even as tiny rooting.

Own root starts out as whitish cluster roots (like alfalfa sprouts). As the roots are being fed with hard minerals like clay: roots become harder & thicker & browner.

For dark-green leaves and aggressive roots that produce acid, even as tiny baby, pelletized lime should be used in the planting hole, along with gypsum (has sulfur for growth). That's why Roses Unlimited recommends 1 cup of dolomitic lime plus 1 cup of gypsum. I prefer pelletized lime for clay soil.

Gypsum is best used IN POTS, by mixing at least 1 week in advance at 1 cup of gypsum per 3 gallons of potting soil. Use 1/2 cup per gallon if one uses high potassium fertilizer since potassium should be TWICE more than calcium.

Calcium is best pre-mixed into soil in advance. Gypsum has 18% acidic sulfur, so it needs several waterings or all-day long to dilute these acidic granules, so it won't corrode tiny roots.

The 18% acidic sulfur is for fast growth. Eight years ago, I bought Munstead Wood as own root. It refused to grow in a 3-gallon pot, so I threw some gypsum plus alfalfa meal (has growth hormone) on top. It immediately threw 3 feet tall octopus canes.

Sulfur is essential for growth & a required nutrient for plant. If a plant lacks sulfur, leaves become pale and the plant can't grow. Gypsum is A MUST for tiny own roots to grow, pale own-roots can't produce acid to digest pelletized lime, so calcium is best in a SOLUBLE form as in gypsum (made soluble in advance in many waterings).

1. 1 cup of gypsum per 2 gallons of potting soil is enough, that averages to 1/2 cup per gallon of soil. 1/2 cup of calcium is enough to build the same weight of root in a gallon of soil.
2. tiny cluster alfalfa sprout roots CANNOT handle high pH of lime (over 9), and it prefers calcium in gypsum (neutral pH, after being diluted with a few waterings, or all-day rain).
3. Some of my rootings are pale since I used pelletized lime to break up the dense Beyond Peat potting soil. If I had used gypsum (has sulfur to green-up), the rootings won't be pale. I ran out of gypsum, just got a new bag on Sunday.
4. NO to mixing in lime when roots are tiny cluster. Roses Unlimited instruction of 1 cup of lime in the planting is to neutralize the acidity of 2 cups of alfalfa meal (pH 5), plus 2 gallons of peat moss (pH 4).
5. YES to mixing lime when roots are more solid (at least 1 year old) like gallon-size from Roses Unlimited.
6. YES to mixing lime with alfalfa meal to top pots during day-long acidic rain (1/3 cup alfalfa meal to 1 TBS. of lime)
7. YES to mixing lime on MATURED plants when I notice less petals in blooms. Calcium depletion occurs when I prune off 1 foot of stems, or cut 5+ blooms for the vase.
8. YES to mixing in lime if acidic clay. Lime on top is excellent to buffer acidic rain.

Below is an internet pic. of sulfur deficiency: the entire plant is pale and growth is stunt. Sulfur is from ammonium sulfate, gypsum (calcium sulfate), sulfate of potash, or decayed organic matter (alfalfa meal):

strawchicago z5 How did you keep all of your rose Black Spot FREE??? Most of my roses are suffering from Black Spot right now from high humidity, any recommendations on how to treat it without hurting the pollinators? Thank you!!!

Jolene ElI We have high humidity here at over 80% for the entire week this Sept., plus 3 days of constant rain. Roses in shade start having mildew.

I check the neighbor's roses grafted on Dr.Huey, no black spots. I check my roses: all are clean, except for Lavender Crush (purple) grafted on Dr.Huey. Lavender Crush is climber over 6 feet, I can't meet its demand for nutrients.

It's easy to keep TINY own-root roses healthy by topping with our bagged soil rich in calcium and potassium. Our bagged top soil (for $3) here is VERY AKALINE at pH near 8, it's dense & sticky black clay. That dense clay protect roots from acid rain at pH 4.5.

Evelyn does best with alkaline clay and potting soil does not have enough magnesium (a co-factor for potassium to work). Except for dense Hyponex potting soil with black peat.

To buffer against acidic rain, DOLOMITIC LIME (Espoma Garden lime with 20% calcium and 10% magnesium) is better than pelletized lime (has less magnesium). Magnesium is what makes clay dense & sticky & moisture retentive.

Magnesium is best ON TOP, rather than at bottom which slows drainage in pot. Magnesium is what makes clay sticky like mud when wet, and rock hard when dry.

Last year with 20 own roots in pots: I mixed potting soil with pelletized lime for woody roots and dark-green leaves, or gypsum for tiny rootings and pale leaves roses.

I always let many watering or rain to dilute the acid of gypsum IN ADVANCE so it doesn't hurt roots.

In heavy rain, I top pots with my high-magnesium & alkaline clay, or DOLOMITIC lime mixed with alfalfa meal. That always make leaves glossy instantly. The 10% of magnesium in DOLOMITIC LIME helps to make leaves glossy. Magnesium is a co-factor for potassium to work. Potassium is essential for disease-prevention plus glossy leaves.

Below is glossy leaves on Firefighter after 1 week as gallon-own-root. I watered it with alfalfa tea and sulfate of potash, plus topped with bagged clay for magnesium:

With tiny rootings in potting soil, NO ALKALINE CLAY. Here's what I notice:

1) Gertrude Jekyll has a reputation for blackspots. Yes, it blackspotted as a tiny rooting in a humid rooting box. I raise the pH of the potting soil. I use THE MOST ALKALINE and DENSE potting soil (Beyond Peat, purple bag at Walmart on sale for $2). I tested its pH at 7.4, versus neutral pH of other potting soils (Pennington, MG-Nature's Care, and MG-moisture-control all have neutral pH and fluffy).

Since that potting soil is so dense, I broke it up with pelletized lime at pH 10. Gertrude immediately grow many new leaves and gained 3 inch during the last 3 days of non-stop rain.

Evelyn rootings suffer badly during this week of too much rain. Leaves became pale and mildewed. Too much acidic rain at pH 4.5 drops the pH, causing sulfur, nitrogen, potassium, magnesium to be less available. See below chart:

SOLUTION to blackspot or decline in health with acidic rain is BLACK PEAT: dense decayed organic matter rich in nitrogen, magnesium (a co-factor) for potassium to work. Potassium is essential for disease-prevention, and it's richest in dense clay.

MG-garden soil for roses has black peat, MG-garden soil for plants also has black peat, and Hyponex potting soil is dense with black peat, best for glossy leaves like Evelyn.

My alkaline clay is rich in black peat, and my clay is tested very high in organic matter, and very high in magnesium, at pH 7.7.

Ace Hardware sells bags of black peat for 1/2 price right now, it's very black and alkaline like my clay. Black peat is well-decomposed and it's rich in nitrogen, versus zero nitrogen in the brown peat moss. From the web: "Black peat” is a very dense, fine particle peat moss that is highly decomposed. It is sometimes used for blocking substrates for starting vegetable seedlings, such as lettuce."

I researched for the BEST BUFFER to protect roots from acidic rain. Here's the ranking from a University Extension Study:

1) alkaline clay 2) calcium 3) decomposed organic matter like black peat.

I'm growing many Evelyn rootings right now. The rootings in black-peat soil (Hyponex potting soil or MG-garden soil, or my clay) have the GLOSSIEST LEAVES. Below 12th-year own-root Evelyn was topped with biochar at pH 8.6 (rich in calcium, magnesium, and potassium). Evelyn prefers alkaline pH, and leaves won't be glossy unless the pH is above 7.

Pea-gravel (rich in many minerals like magnesium and potassium) also make leaves glossy. I once bought a Carefree Celebration rose (grafted on Dr.Huey) from HomeDepot. It looked really bad during acidic rain: leaves were wilted, dull, and thin from acid rain. So I watered it with my pH 9 tap water plus soak in pea-gravel for more alkaline minerals.

Within 1 week, all leaves became glossy & healthy in THE SAME pot. See pic. below for the effect of acid rain on plants. At pH 4, leaves became pale. At pH 1, leaves became wilted, and very droopy. pH of rain here is 4.5, same with the East coast.

See the pH of rain across USA. My Chicagoland and the East coast have acidic rain at pH 4.5, versus the West Coast like CA has pH 5.6 for rain water.

12:54 PM 3 OCT 22

Since you were so kind to open the door for advice, I do have another concern. Fertilizers. I'm going to try to go for organic gardening and I don't believe a good fish emulsion is good enough once a week. And they are not created equal, anyway. I have a 5-1-1 that won't do for roses. There's another, Neptune's Harvest....2-6-4, that will be more in line with what they need, but, is that enough once a week after good amendments are added to the soil where they are planted?
I also know to leave pruning alone for the first year or so to let the rose get established.

I cannot use granular for the first year as some of my roses will come from Heirloom and that cancels their return policy. I'm planning on using earthworm casings and will buy some organic soil with amendments but no fertilizers.
I did read what you suggested on Roses Unlimited about planting and I will follow those instructions.
I was shocked to read that you lost so many roses. I know in 5 A. you must have some very hardy ones and I hope you still have them. I know how bad I felt when I had to remove my roses. We do fall in love, don't we? :-)

This is the question, Straw, that you asked me to copy and paste in here.

Hi Pat: Losing $3,000 worth of roses in the past 3 decades in my zone 5a is FROM POOR DRAINAGE super dense CLAY and tons of freezing rain rather than snow.

I get tired of losing roses through my zone 5a winter that I focus on rooting out-of-patent Austin roses and sell it to DONATE TO CHARITY as a hobby. That stop my need to buy roses when I have tiny rootings to take care for.

It's more meaningful to grow these rootings for the happiness of others (esp. for charitable cause), rather than buying roses just to have them die through zone 5a winter. Even large trees and bushes in my garden died from freezing rain. I lost 4 trees this winter (they were planted in 2001).

In regard to your garden of "northeastern Ohio, little clay, mostly loamy soil that doesn't drain too fast. The PH is between 6 and 7." Loamy soil on top is from high-rain climate that make minerals fluffy on top. In poor drainage soil, go easy on phosphorus due to phosphorus DOES NOT LEACH out much with poor drainage.

I burnt plenty of roses with a wad of high-phosphorus chicken manure on top. What is your annual rainfall? If your annual rainfall is more than 40 inches. per year, the first thing that leach out is calcium, then potassium, next is magnesium, and last is phosphorus (stay put and doesn't leach out in poor-drainage soil).

If your soil is high in organic matter (leaves, grass clippings) then nitrogen is NOT needed after spring flush since air is composed of 78% nitrogen, and organics retain nitrogen well.

Nitrogen is needed PRIOR to spring flush since roses are winter killed to below ankle in my zone 5a, but after that I don't use nitrogen, not even for my pots. Alfalfa meal is enough for nitrogen.

Osmocote PLUS with trace elements is enough to induce blooming for roses in the ground and in pots. I tested many fertilizers in spring, and here's my order of most blooms:

1) Pennington granular fertilizer (used to be Lilly Miller)

2) Osmocote PLUS

3) Tomato-tone is better than Rose-tone since it has more potassium

3) Chicken manure (too high phosphorus, not enough potassium)

FOR 1st year own-root: Neptune's Harvest....2-6-4 is excellent. Same with diluted alfalfa tea. MG-soluble for roses ($5 pink box) is also good since that has low salt sulfate of potash.

Granular fertilizer like Osmocote PLUS induce blooms instantly thanks to the many trace elements .. that work even in tiny rooting (less than 6 months old, growing from cuttings).

Hi Straw, Just checked and my annual rainfall is approx. 38 inches, but, this was a wet year. I think it's usually around 35.

I have tomato tone....I use it on my tomato plants. I also have rose tone, unopened, so will return it for T,T. BTW, I will only buy own root. I don't want to bother with the possible problems of grafted roses. I will, also, protect all my roses from the cold for their first year by wrapping them in something like burlap and mounding some soil or extra mulch around their base. Just ordered my first rose today, so, I'm happy about that. Firefighter was on sale at Heirloom for anyone interested in a deep red fragrant rose. I'm laying down heavy plastic sheets in the places I'm planting my roses next spring. I'll peg the plastic down and this will kill all the grass and any weeds, plus, make the soil easier to dig.

Straw, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you giving me this advice. We both know how important it is to give new plants a good start and thanks to you, I will be able to do this.

Oh, and I'm pretty pissed off this place put my picture and my real name. I tried to change it and it caused problems trying to sign in. Grrrr.

I'm on my 4th own-root Firefighter (3 died in the past 20 years in my zone 5a).

Firefighter has a higher need for calcium (Garden lime or dolomitic lime). When there's a reduction in petals, I mixed top soil with lime and top Firefighter with that, and it always UP its petals. In below bouquet, the Squire is red, Firefighter is right, and Munstead Wood is dark red. Beige is Princess Charlene de Monaco. Note the many petals in Firefighter after I mixed lime with alfalfa meal plus soil to top that 1st-year own-root Firefighter, bought this May 2022 from Roses Unlimited. So far it gave me 20+ blooms as of 10/5/22.

The roses are gorgeous. Can you tell me what kind of scent Firefighter has? Ok, how much of each goes into your blend of lime, alfalfa and soil? Can I use that blend on Souvenir de St. Anne's, Jacquiline du Pre, Cornelia and Felicia, also or will it be too high in calcium for them?

Firefighter has an old rose plus fruit scent. The old rose note is strongest with acidic rain. When topped with horse manure at pH 8, Firefighter scent became fruity.

Calcium is best for zillion petal roses, and high phosphorus (chicken manure) is best for branching and cluster-blooming like Cornelia and Felicia.

For topping roses with many petals: I mix 1 gallon of top soil that has black peat (high in organic matter) with 1 cup of alfalfa meal and 1/2 cup Garden lime.

Alfalfa meal is acidic and will burn roots if a wad of that is stuck on the crown, best diluted with soil, plus mix in Garden lime (pH 10) to neutralize alfalfa meal (pH 5). This is vital esp. with acidic rain at pH 4.5 in the mid-west.

If I can find composted chicken manure I will use it...otherwise, no way. I'll use cow or horse composted manure in place of it if I can only find fresh C.M.. This is some information I lack....what organic amendments have what NPK in them. I asked about Firefighter's scent because I read in HMF that the scent was both fruity and musky, so, I was curious.

As you see, my pic and name have been removed. I don't know how those both got on my profile as I never put them there and I was so upset about it I woke up at 3 am. and couldn't go back to sleep.

You can still call me Pat if you wish. lol

Oops, I forgot to add, I cannot find black peat anywhere around me. Our Ace Hardware does not carry it.

Houzz upset me many times in the past. I was so mad at Houzz that I spent time writing a bad review for them on SiteJabber website.

Houzz deleted my posts if there's any link to Amazon products (such as fertilizer). Houzz also deleted THE ENTIRE thread with my posts PLUS other people' posts, just because the title of the thread was about Roundup (Glyphosate) in food (such as in breakfast cereals that cause harm to children).

It's called CENSORSHIP for one's benefits and ties to big corp. (such as Monsanto, now Bayer).

Another poster Cori-Ann in CA got so mad at Houzz that she changed her username to "Houzz-violated-my-privacy".

Pat (Annie Dee): I used to be so hurt when people make mistakes against me (Houzz violates plenty), then I realize it's Houzz problem, and NOT mine. It's easy to carry the burden of others' mistakes, when they should carry it, and NOT us.

There's a Near-death-experience account, which a lady went to heaven, still so upset at her brother's obnoxious behavior. The angel in heaven told her, "Dearie, it's His problems, and NOT yours."

I contacted their customer support and she said they will delete the profiles. I tried and they didn't show up, so I couldn't do it myself. I agree, Straw, that we sometimes take on other's mistakes and I learned not to do that many years ago when I did hair. Dealing personally with people taught me a lot about people in general. I do think sites are allowed to censor what they don't like. It's not against America's free speech. Free speech is about being able to say what you want and not get arrested for it. It's a government thing, I believe.

Anyway, are you trying to tell me Jubilee Celebration would not be a good choice for me, a sort of beginner in roses?

I'm in settings right now and there is no link to delete. I am hoping the tech department does this for me.

Jubilee Celebration is best as grafted, it's too wimpy as own-root ... even died on someone in Texas.

I sell out-of-patent rootings (Spirit of Freedom, Abe. Darby, Evelyn, Radio Times, W.S. 2000, Christopher Marlowe, The Dark Lady, The Squire, Golden Celebration, Carding Mill, Mary Magdalene, etc) for $10, $15, $20, $30 depending on the size. All the money goes to charities.

What I notice in rooting roses: wimpy own-root are best grafted, or else grown in a pot to FOR ONE YEAR to reach gallon-size first.

Wimpy own-root can be grown in a cold zone IF it reaches gallon-size first. Which means a band-size NEEDS to be in a pot for 1 year, but it's a nuisance to water it daily. Roots can shrink 1/2 in one day if dried out.

With water-hogs like Jubilee Celebration or Evelyn, W.S. 2000 or most Austins:

They like it soaking wet, I have a hard time keeping my pots wet enough for them. Tiny rootings shrink their roots 1/2 with 1 day of being dried out.

Tiny rootings can gain 1 inch of root in humid air and wet soil in 2 days.

Heavy clay is great for water-hog like Evelyn or Jubilee Celebration, if made fluffy with sand (regular yellow & washed sand for garden).

Sand mixed with clay in the planting hole is great, IF THE HOLE drains well when poured a 3-gallon of water at 1 foot deep. But the top should always be 100% heavy clay to seal the moisture.

Big plastic clear bottle (cap off for ventilation) should be kept around tiny rooting to keep animals off. At below freezing, cap can be put on, if there's a thermal blanket above it to shade and keep the sun from cooking the plant inside.

If there's sunshine, even 2 hours, the cap should be off, otherwise plant will be cooked to brown inside the plastic bottle.

Rabbits, chipmunks, and squirrels ate and killed both tiny plants and BIG own-roots (2-gallon root ball). When plant a 1st-year own-root in the ground, I use a 3-gallon pot, cut off the bottom. then put it around the rose to protect it from being eaten by rabbits

If the own root is in a pot, squirrels and chipmunks like to climb in and eat the rose to the crown, so I put thorny branches across the pot to keep pests out.

I've been looking for an apricot-pink/etc. multi colored rose for awhile and the ones I've seen were either too tender for 6 zone or they weren't fragrant or they were prone to disease. Jubilee Celebration ticked all the buttons for me. Color, size, strong fragrance. Is there another rose that you know of that has similar coloration, strong fragrance, no larger than 6 feet and disease resistant for zone 6 or lower that you would recommend? Do any of the ones you sell fit the above description?

If I decide JC is one I want to try despite your advice I may wait till 2024 after I have a year of growing the ones I am getting. I found fencing...the kind that has legs that you push into the ground and are 3 feet tall that I can put around my roses when they first are planted. Also, there's no reason why I couldn't get JC and pot it in a gallon or 2 gallon pot till late spring or longer if necessary. I wish I could find this rose potted, but, it's only being sold on bare root. I will not get it grafted.

Carding Mill is 10 times more vigorous than JC and its color changes from pink to apricot.

Grafted roses decline after 5 years, but own root live twice longer. It's easy to change the soil for small own-root, but it's a pain to "refresh" the soil on a HUGE grafted-root rose.

Own-root is best if it can be grown into 2-gallon root ball to survive winter.

As to growing Austin own-root in a pot: peatmoss potting soil is best, Austin roses are such water hogs, and peat moss can hold water 10 times its weight.

Mostly peat moss potting like MG-regular potting soil (yellow/green bag) is good to hold moisture below, but it has very little minerals to harden the root of water-hogs with glossy leaves like JC or Evelyn.

Best to top the pot with your clay (rich in minerals) broken up with pelletized lime (acidic rain), or gypsum (alkaline tap water).

To top roses: use 1/2 gallon of your native soil broken up into fluff with 1/2 cup gypsum & 1/2 cup alfalfa meal if you don't have much rain.

If you have lots of rain, then 1/2 gallon of your clay broken up into fluff with 1/2 cup pelletized lime plus 1/2 cup alfalfa meal for growth.

Gypsum has acidic sulfur (helps with alkaline tap water). Sulfur for growth is from RAIN, or anything with sulfate such as calcium sulfate (gypsum), sulfate of potash (potassium sulfate), or decayed organic matter like alfalfa also release sulfur for growth.

Heavy clay or native soil on top is too dense, thus the logic of breaking it up with gypsum (dry weather), or pelletized lime (acidic rain), plus alfalfa for growth & nitrogen. Then top the pot with this mixture.

FOR THE PLANTING HOLE: mixed in gypsum if your clay is very heavy. Gypsum "lighten up" or fluff up clay. Gypsum is acidic thus need to water the soil before planting to dilute its acidity.

If your soil is already light & fluffy for tiny roots, then skip adding calcium.

For clay that hardens into "rocks" when dry: use gypsum (has sulfur or acid to soften or dissolve minerals in the clay)

For clay that's easier to dig or have plenty of organic matter: use pelletized lime to "fluff up" the clay for tiny roots. Calcium is NOT in SOLUBLE fertilizer, thus the logic of adding calcium in the planting hole like Roses Unlimited' recipe for planting on their website.

Thanks, Straw, for the advice. As for Carding Mill, I'm not sure I'd like myrrh fragrance ( never smelled it ) and if JC's scent is a nice as people have described it in HFR, I'll take my chances on it. No problem potting it and my soil has little clay...it's pretty loamy. I've got all the places I'm planting roses next spring covered with black plastic...not landscaping material. This lets no light or water in so the grass and weeds will be killed. Also, this makes the soil much easier to work. I have a fairly small city lot, so, if JC. stays small, that is not a problem. But, I'm going to give my new roses the best care possible and maybe that will help it grow decently. I'm already getting two hybrid musks...they grow pretty large, so, I'd prefer a rose that doesn't get large. If you are interested I can let you know once it comes, is potted and starts to grow. Would JC need constant sun or should it have a little shade? I hope you know the answer. lol I know some roses are okay with a bit of shade and some aren't.

Jubilee Celebratrion is a child of Golden Celebration, so it's a waterhog and needs DENSE soil rich in magnesium (mixing in 1/2 cup of dolomitic lime provides 10% magnesium). Magnesium is a co-factor for potassium to work, and potassium regulates water osmosis for water-hog Austins.

In HMF rating tab, Jubilee Celebration gets 5 excellent votes for partial shade. The cup is more shallow and NOT deep like Evelyn, so it can open up in less sun.

Evelyn has deep cup blooms and needs full sun otherwise it balls.

TIPS TO GROW TINY ROOTINGS INTO GALLON-SIZE FAST:

The secret of growing own roots fast is to put a bit of old soil (with grass roots & aggressive weeds or chopped up mint roots)

These aggressive roots have mycorrhyzal fungus to get phosphorus from soil for best root-growth. But the soil (with old roots) is best minced up so aggressive plants like mint don't grow in pots. Folks swear by mint compost for fastest root growth since mint is invasive and it has beneficial fungi on its roots to extract phosphorus from soil.

Also put in some earthworms in the pot that you grow own-root roses. Earthworms till the soil and introduce air for fast root growth.

Rose tissue done by U. of CA at Davis showed 3 part nitrogen, 2 part potassium, 1 part calcium, 1/10 phosphorus and 1/10 magnesium.

3 part nitrogen is from air and organic matter (alfalfa meal), 2 part of potassium is from using high potassium fertilizer (sulfate of potash).

1/10 phosphorus is from alfalfa meal, plus the manure in organic potting soil, or Osmocote PLUS NPK 15-9-12 (has trace elements for fast blooming).

1/10 magnesium is from 1/2 cup dolomitic lime per 2 gallon of potting soil.

High calcium and high potassium is the secret for biggest root-growth, I learned that from Hydroponics YouTube.

I never achieved band-size in 2 months rooting, until I moved W.S. 2000 rooting into a pot with old soil. W.S. 2000 has a bud plus biggest root since I used OLD potting soil, This has the roots of cilantro which has aggressive mycorrhizal fungi for best root growth. The mycorrhizal fungi is also in granular fertilizer like Espoma Tone, but salty fertilizer burns tiny roots, so it's safer to mix in OLD POTTING soil with roots of aggressive plants like cilantro or mint.

Cilantro grows fastest from seeds I grew a bunch of cilantro in a pot, and they got too big, so I chopped them down, then re-use the potting soil. Mycorrhyzal fungi (for best root growth) is from aggressive plants like weeds or herbs.

The key to a good root system with Austin roses: moist soil with 100% peat moss like Pro-Mix or MG-regular potting soil (more peatmoss than MG-moisture-control). Peat moss can hold water 10 times its weight. MG-moisture control is too dry, same with any soil with forest products or bark chips as #1.

Own root is small, but it will grow fast if one uses poting soil with Peatmoss as #1 ingredient, plus mix in 1/2 cup gypsum (has sulfur for growth), 1/2 cup dolomitic lime (has magnesium to hold moisture), and 1 cup of alfalfa meal per 2 gallons of potting soil. This helps soil to be dense and wet for Austin water-hog own-roots.

Roots can shrink 1/2 the size within 1 week if it's in dry potting soil.

MG-moisture control is too dry, I had to water rootings twice a day. Pro-mix potting soil is best to grow plants with tiny roots.

Best fertilizer for alkaline tap water is 2 TBS of alfalfa meal soaked in 1 gallon of water for 1 day, plus 1/2 TBS of sulfate of potash (every other watering).

Potassium should be twice more than calcium, and there's plenty of calcium in the soil already, so one needs to supply potassium only.

ALL TAPWATER have alkaline pH (over 7) since municipals add hydrated lime to prevent pipes from corroding. The logic of watering with alfalfa meal (soaked for 1 day) is to bring down the high pH of tap water to rain water (pH 5).

Watering with alfalfa meal & sulfate of potash is for hot & dry weather.

If you are in rainy & cooler season, just use 1 teaspoon of MG-Soluble for roses every other day in 1 gallon of water. MG-bloom booster SOLUBLE fertilier is even better with less nitrogen and more phosphorus, best used as 1 teaspoon per gallon of water every other day.

The key to fertilize tiny rooting is VERY DILUTE AMOUNT every other day. Tiny rooting are like babies, they want to be fed frequently with SOLUBLE foods, and babies CANNOT handle solid foods.

Heirloom roses sells Austin for $60 PER GALLON advised customers NOT to use granular fertilizer during the 1st year. Even gallon-size roots are too wimpy to handle granular fertilizer.

Wow. lots of info. How did you learn all this? Amazing!

I was planning on planting J.C. in front of my house where it will get early morning sun till about 2 in the afternoon, then some dappled shade till around 5 or 6 or so when it will get late evening sun. I am ordering some organic soil ( I can't find it in my local garden stores ) that has all the amendments that you mentioned above. I do have pro mix with peat moss locally for JC when I put it in a 2 gallon pot. Should I mix the pro mix with the organic soil for potting it till I can plant it or should I just use the potting mix until I can put it in the ground. I'm getting JC. from Angel Gardens and it will cost $20. Should I use any of the Neptune's Harvest liquid on the bare root once it shows some growth, or, just leave it till I plant it in the ground?

BTW, I will be a fuss budget about my roses, especially, the first one that comes and that will be JC, so, it will get all the attention, watering, etc. that it needs. Important question, Straw....once I have JC potted should I keep in away from sun, like in the garage, or should I give it some sun each day? I am bare root rose stupid and I would be so upset if I kill my first rose.

I saw some rose plants on some site for $84. which I thought was ridiculous. Firefighter was on sale for 33.00 and that's why I ordered it when I did.

It might be helpful to tell you, also, that when I had roses ages ago, it was at this same house and they grew very well without all the amendments listed above. My soil is comparable to the Amish farm soil which is considered very good soil for planting. And, yes, I just found this out, too. :-)

Have a good evening, Straw.

@strawchicago z5 that is really great info about the mint.

I will be testing this out as an additive to the potting mix for upcoming hardwood cuttings to see if it might help me improve my success rate (currently zero).

seasiderooftop Just saw your comment, great idea !! Hardwood cuttings is hard to root, and it needs an acid (rooting hormone) to break through the harder cambium layer. I succeeded in rooting hardwood indoor only once. It's a pain to root indoor in zone 5a winter with gloomy cold weather. My house is 57 F INDOOR at night during the winter.

Annie: Wow !! you get fantastic deals on roses. Angel Gardens is located in Florida, a perfect place for growing roses with warm weather and constant rain. Own-root can gain 1 inch. of root in just 2 days in a warm & humid bin.

It's the rooting from a cutting that's hard, but growing from a tiny rooting to a gallon-size is easy. All it takes is good soil and warm weather, which I don't have.

Using Pro-mix (mostly peatmoss) is best at root level and below. Any rich & fertile soil (organic potting soil) is best above. As you water, nutrients are leached down to below to nourish roots.

Another tip to harden the roots from alfalfa sprout to woody & chunky is to top the pot with one's dense soil or native soil.

Dense clay ON TOP = dense minerals to convert soft & alfalfa sprout roots to hard and dense roots that can withstand drought better.

Dense and rock-hard clay like mine is best broken up with gypsum (calcium sulfate) and mixed in alfalfa meal to soften that dense clay, otherwise I get concrete on top when my dense clay dries up.

If you are in zone 6 or colder, it's too cold in Oct. to use any fertilizer with nitrogen like fish emulsion. Fertilizer with potassium is OK, since it hardens root for winter-survival.

If you are in zone 6 or colder, best to keep a small bare root rose in a pot in the garage so it can stay dormant. That's to avoid tons of freezing rain that kill roses outside in April.

For any bare-root to survive my cold zone 5a outside, I spent 2 hours digging deep for drainage, so a bucket of water can drain fast at 2 feet deep.

My zone 6 weather scares me for trying to plant before mid April because of late freezes and freezing rain and I might wait till early May depending on the 10 day weather report. My Heirloom rose, Firefighter is being shipped April 10th, so, that one may go in the garage for a week or so. I'll check the weather, of course, to see what's coming up. Cornelia is being shipped the same day and both are own root, potted in one gallon pots. I'm going to amend the soil where they are going to be planted a week or two before they get here, then I will cover it again with the black plastic to keep it good. We have dogs, so, I don't want them digging there. BTW, my dog's name is Annie and my real name is Pat, as I think you know, but, either name you use is ok.

That makes sense to put the pro mix on the bottom with the organic soil with tons of amendments on the top so it filters down slowly.

Have you ever considered doing what I am here with putting some medium weight plastic down to cover an area you want to plant in? It really does loosen the soil...almost like it's already has amendments in it.

Thanks for answering my question about keeping JC out of the sun. I had no idea what to do once she is potted, except to keep her well watered. The other two roses, since they are already potted I would put in the sun during the day and put them in the garage at night till I get them in the ground.

Did you ever watch you tube with a guy from fraiser farms? He grows roses and sells them in BC Canada and is great for information. I like listening to him because he goes right to the subject without music or bull. His name is Jason. I wonder how much you'd agree or disagree with him.

BTW, the spelling of fraiser is without the i and the word valley is between it and the word farm. I am assuming I cannot put the full name here because it's a link.

Thank you, Pat, for the above info. I also use Black Plastic "Mulch Film" to kill grass & weeds in starting rose bed. I used it since 2011. See below:

The above black plastic is 4 feet wide x 50 feet long, sold at Menards for less than $6. The area is big enough for a dozen roses. In the fall I pin down the plastic sheet over the grass that I want to kill. Within 5 months (through the winter) the grass & weeds are converted into fluffy compost and ready to plant roses. Pic. taken back in fall 2011

Once the grass & weeds are killed within 5 months under the black plastic, I put in plastic edging, dug down to 6 inch. to keep the grass out. Below plastic edging is Lifetime guaranteed, sold at HomeDepot. It never pop out like the expensive ones at Lowe's plus it lasts for the past 22 years. I also put newspaper & brick down to prevent grass seeds from sowing in my rose bed.

I should have known. lol The amount of information you have is astounding, Straw. I tried Menards here but they only had clear plastic in the size I needed it. Home Depot had 10 ft. by 25 ft. for $16.00 and I bought four of them because there are parts of my backyard that the dogs have ruined and need reseeded. I will have to do some shopping to find either some sort of fencing or nice looking edging around my roses in the front of the house. If you ever watch the you tube guy I mentioned I'd love your opinion of his advice. I find it pretty sound.

Hope you're having a nice Sunday.

I just found out Jubilee Celebration is grafted and that it needs to be...something you told me in our earlier conversations. I'm not thrilled about it, but, I can't get it any other way. I'm not crazy about Austin roses anyway, but, I love this one. So many of his roses all look alike and since he uses old roses for his breeding I can't understand why so many of them have to be grafted or budded, but, they are. Pam at Angel Gardens told me to plant the graft 3 to 5 inches below and then JC will grow it's own roots and the root stock ends up dying. I'll have to hope she's right.

I have been growing roses for 30+ years, I'm 61. I am able to root most varieties (including hard-to-root Comte de Chambord and Gertrude Jekyll), but I failed to root Jubilee Celebration with at least 20+ cuttings.

My neighbor told me her Pink Knock-out is grafted on Red Knock-out-rootstock. After a harsh zone 5a winter, her Pink Knock-out gave bright red Red Knock-out blooms. She showed it to be and it's NOT Dr.Huey-rootstock's blooms.

For the 6 Knock-outs I had: After 15 years, the wimpier pink Knock-out DID NOT grow own-roots above Dr.Huey-rootstock, but the aggressive red ones GREW its own-root above Dr.-Huey-rootstock. That's buried 6 inch. deep in soaking wet clay.

However, the own-root above Dr.Huey-rootstock IS VERY TINY, even after 15 years for aggressive RED knock-out variety.

CONCLUSION: Aggressive varieties like red Knock-out or Pink Peace (see below) can grow its own-roots above Dr.Huey rootstock, but wimpier varieties like pink Knock-out cannot, even after 15 years.

Pink Peace is an aggressive grower, reaching 5 feet tall in zone 5a. It gave tiny own-roots above Dr.Huey when I dug it up. That was buried under 6 inch. of soaking wet clay near the rain spout. Click on below pic. to see own-roots grown above chunky Dr.Huey-rootstock, of easy to root Pink Peace:

Below pic. posted by Jedmar in HMF shows how much smaller Jubilee Celebration on the right, compared to Princess Alexandra of Kent on the left. PAK is sold as own-root, Jubilee Celebration is best as grafted:

Still, I'm stuck on trying this rose. I have to hope for the best and see if it does ok for me. My soil is looser, so, maybe that will help JC grow it's own roots. There are pics of JC all over you tube that show JC growing nicely for people, so, I hope it does as well for me.

I have a feeling you'd like to talk me out of JC, but, the color, size ( possible size ) and fragrance is what I've been looking for. I have enough light pink roses coming in the spring, and I hate the garish color of roses like MME. Isaac Pereire even though her blooms are beautiful. As I said earlier, we do fall in love. :-)

Thanks for the pics of little JC.

The above are just for me to understand why I cannot root Jubilee Celebration.

@strawchicago z5, I have different experience with rooting of Gertrude Jekyll. I got semi-hardwood cutting to root with 75% success last year. I took cuttings in mid November and they were thin ( 3/4th the thickness of pencil). I put 4 of them (6 -8 inches each) in raised bed with soil mix of poultry grit + leaf compost + pine bark soil conditioner (has gypsum in it) (20% + 30% + 50%). I didn't add any winter protection other than shredded fall leaves. This spring I got new growth on all 4 of them but one didn't make it to summer. Three of them are growing pretty well in 3 gallon pots and have 2 feet of growth.

RHS website also suggest using hardwood cutting in fall for propagation of GJ.

Straw, I'm not going to try to propagate JC in any way. I'm just hoping it grows decently for me and I don't have trouble with the grafting in the future. Also, I don't know what root stock Pam is using. I could ask her, I suppose. Did you wish to know which one she uses for JC?

BTW, I don't mind if you have been trying to talk me out of JC. I know you are trying to help and I appreciate it, probably, more than you know.

Tututara Zone 7 appreciate your tips on rooting GC very much. THANK YOU.

Pat (Annie): it's good to ask Pam for the type of rootstock she uses. Multiflora is great for high rain and loamy soil, but bad for my rock-hard & alkaline clay.

Dr.Huey-rootstock is great for dry & alkaline regions.

Fortuniana-rootstock is for warm zones only.

Pam knows which zone I'm in and JC is marketed for zone 5. I sent her an email and asked her which root stock JC has. I don't believe she does the grafting. She gets these from the Austin nursery in Texas already grafted. I'll let you know what root stock it has when she replies. Here is what she said about all this in an email yesterday after I first told her I didn't want JC because it was grafted, then I changed my mind and said I would give it a try and sent that email out to her.. She grows all own root herself and preaches that own root is much better, she is also completely organic. So, here is her reply to me about grafting.

" Well, that's funny as I was just going to send you a "lecture" on the benefits of grafted roses in SOME cases. Many roses are too weak and too slow and too hard to root from cuttings. Jubilee Celebration is a case in point. Although All rose societies say the opposite of what I am going to tell you, David Austin and ALL of EUROPE plants their budded (grafted) roses UNDER the soil with the intention that the SCION, the one on top WILL put down roots of it's own because it is allowed to be under the soil. We're talking 3-5 inches below the graft in cold climates (where the bud union tends to freeze and die) and 2-3 inches deep in warmer climates like mine. Within a year or two the graft will die away and the rose shoots out a whole new bunch of basal roots and Vualla! You now have an own root rose that started out large instead of puny! The best of both worlds. All of Europe and DA are not crazy. You even get less suckers and less disease.

I have not tuned into Fraser's talks (maybe once) but Very few rosarians even know about this. It's really amazing. So that being said, feel good that all will be well and I will leave your name on one."

Straw. I just found out Pam could not get JC in her order from Austin. Maybe they are out of stock. She is going to try to propagate it ( root it) herself and get one to me whenever it's ready. If she sends me one that is own root I will take your advice and put it in a 3 gallon pot till it's larger before planting it in the ground. So, I'm not planting JC in spring and have no idea when or if I will.

Oh, and the rootstock that all of the American David Austin roses are on is good old Dr. Huey, that black spot prone climber.

@Little Annie Dee - I just watched 3 vidoes on that channel. Thanks!

@strawchicago z5 - have you been conducting rose experiments on purpose, or just keeping a good log? I picture you like a mad scientist in your white coat with your meticulously kept records...THANK YOU for all the good advice here. As usual, my head is spinning! :-)

You're welcome, Deborah. I think you mean Fraser Valley. I like how he doesn't play some silly song or talk about things that don't relate to the video, but, goes right into the subject the video is about. He's nice to listen to and has quite a few different topics to listen to.

Straw amazes me with his/her knowledge, too, plus, goes way out of his/her way to help.

Annie (Pat): I'm a 61 year-old married gal with 1 daughter in college. Other people think that I'm a guy when they asked me questions in HMF.

I worked as a C-programmer (B.S. in Computer Science, minor in chemistry) so I embrace facts and accuracies.

I have been married too long to my husband (Visual Basic computer programmer), so I'm straight forward & concise like a guy.

The classes that I took in college: microbiology, inorganic chemistry and biochemistry help in growing roses and in understanding soil chemistry.

My knowledge is from 30+ years of growing 150+ own root roses in very harsh environment: zone 5a winter with -20 F below zero, and rock-hard clay.

My purpose is to save folks time & money in making the same mistakes as I did.

Hi Female Straw. I'm older than you, 72 and want to grow roses again before I hit the bucket or get too old to take care of them.. I did hair for 35 years and retired 6 years ago. I was married for 10 years to a guy who needed to grow up...made a lousy father, so, I divorced him and have lived happily ever after still single. I have two grown daughters who did their college, too, one has a bachelors and one a masters.

They both have great husbands, which, I'm very happy about. One 10 year old granddaughter who iis adorable. I have one dog, Annie, a Dandie Dinmont Terrier, a rate breed who is as sweet as her name.

Now I have some understanding how you have soooo much information about soil and what should go into it or be avoided. You really are a wealth of information and, I believe, a very kind and generous lady to want to help people.

The Fraser guy I mentioned earlier also has clay soil.

bump this up for reference in growing tiny rooting.