For me it falls under the category of 'just because you can doesn't mean you should.'

A lot of the comments referenced abstract art as well. Reminded me of how Lennon/Ono found they were on the same page when, as part of her art show, she included a green apple that she put on an acrylic pedestal. Yes, like what you buy in the grocery store. A commentary on how ridiculous all this pretentiousness was.

For me it falls under the category of 'just because you can doesn't mean you should.'

"Shoulds and should-nots" are very slippery slopes when we undertake to pass judgment on how solvent, law-abiding people spend their own money. There is not much that is truly necessary.

This isn't really anything new.

There are Tudor menus where the entire banquet was made out of sugar or marzipan. It was made to look like all the regular courses in the banquet but was all sugar.

I feel like you have to approach almost anything high concept with a sense of humor, and also be able to put lots of things in perspective, in general. There are people who review online every cheap meal that goes in their mouth as if they just paid $300 for it. Were they really expecting to have the best meal of their life in that diner instead of "the worst meal in my life". You have to set the bar accordingly.

And of course we live in the world of the hyperbole. Everything is either the best or the worst.

One "I would give negative stars if I could, worst meal in my entire life" review here, it turned out, was because the restaurant refused to comp their entire meal because someone else had stolen one of their umbrellas from the stand near the door. They didn't mention the food at all

I have had a number of high concept meals with some pretty elaborate preparations, and a couple of these things ended up tasting like other things that are really very ordinary. One thing that comes to mind was something like blood sausage freeze dried in nitrogen and it tasted like baked Cheetos, another elaborate thing was more like a 1960s Jello mold like a crab ring or whatever it was called. These were part of a lengthy 14 course, hours long thing, so I am not going to get upset about some of the misses. Actually even some of the misses are interesting because of the process or science behind it.

Regarding "just because you can doesn't mean you should" is a valid comment, but should and shouldn't aren't completely exclusive are they? Just because you can do something (weird) doesn't mean you shouldn't, either.

You can get into a whole discussion of the Dada and Fluxus movement, absurdist art or experiences, and so forth and I think that a lot of people miss the point.

In Advance of the Broken Arm ( The snow shovel hung up by Marcel Duchamp) often gets the comment, "I could do that/Anybody can do that".

Well, that's true. But you didn't and anybody didn't until Marcel Duchamp did.

And now, nobody can really do it again, legitimately, because it has been done before and it's a blatant copy of the original concept. Nobody who wants to be a real artist in their own right would plagiarize like that.

LOL, I never really developed a taste for sushi but would have to suffer through business meals at the various Nobus all the time, because clients always wanted to go. The only thing I really enjoyed was a sashimi dish that I swear tasted just like my Mom's Bumble Bee tuna salad scooped up on Ruffles. Which is to say, really yummy.

As an aside, for some reason this menu, from Warner Brothers back in 1941, was on my Twitter feed yesterday. Sauerkraut juice, anyone? Or the Manager's Special? Peanut butter, Ham and Chicken on Toast?

As I often say, everyone has their thing. I like interesting food (not offal). I might visit Noma if I could be assured that the experience would be as satisfying as my first trip to Hamilton for which I paid a similar amount of money. Not that I could ever get into Noma, but I understand the appeal. It's entertainment.

What I do like about this article is that it brings to light the behind-the-scenes stress and chaos and unrealistic expectations that are often hidden from our view. I think we should try to be conscious about where we spend our money so we don't support the mistreatment of other humans. It's not easy.

I want to add though, that I am not disagreeing that Yoko Ono is pretentious. I think she is. One of her performance pieces recently was standing in front of an audience and shrieking really loudly for a period of time, and then stopping. I think the point of this might actually be that she is manipulating the audience in an emperor's new clothes fashion.

A lot of the comments on the article made reference to the emperor's new clothes.

As far as slippery slope on shoulds and should-nots, it's a distribution, no? And one can argue where a line should be drawn, but we're not talking 1 or 2 sigma, but out beyond 7 and 8 sigma territory...at least in my book where we are spending days making bugs out of fruit leather or charging people incredible amounts of money so they can eat ants, or making diners eat in sauna-like conditions because they've decided a breeze might interfere with the "dining experience". And of course we are all free to draw that line where we want....so long as we aren't asking others to foot our bill. But if the ultra-rich choose to be ultra-extravagant, then, at least in my book, the "should" comes in with bearing the full cost of that extravagance rather than building it on the backs of "slave" unpaid labor.

I know you put the word slave in quotations but I think it's important to note it was a choice, not forced. As I mentioned above I do think we should try to be conscious of how we spend our money so we don't inadvertently support mistreatment. It's hard, there are a lot of jerks out there.

I don't think people condone unfair labor practices. But consumers aren't really the place to lay the blame, though. We should try be aware, but frankly we can't be forensic accountants for all our purchases.

And, those employees and interns chose to work there. At that level, they surely had other choice. Pity fast food workers not Noma peeps.

But I do love it when you talk statistics.

To some extent in the restaurant industry paying the labor costs for the experience has been put in the hands of the consumer, dependent upon the tip structure. So at least if you are paying a 20-22% tip on a $300 tab, $60-66 is being divided between servers and front of house staff, at least. The problem is the salaries in the back of house staff which are the responsibility of the owners, and the reality is that much of the back of house support staff probably is not making more at a high-end restaurant than they would be at a diner, and for more stress. But this is a political issue related to the minimum wage laws and exemptions, and all the rhetoric about if you had to pay minimum wage your Taco Bell would cost $35, where we know from other countries who have both reasonable minimum wage and some of these American-based companies, that this isn't true.

IME, at the very highest end, tips are often not optional, even in the US. For example, in re Blue Hill

Blue Hill at Stone Barns does not accept gratuities. An Administrative Fee of 22% will be added to the cost of the reservation. The Administrative Fee is used to offset operational costs. It is not a gratuity, will not be distributed as a gratuity to employees, and is subject to applicable sales taxes. There is no opportunity to add gratuity to your check; gratuities are not accepted.

Jinx, you are MY kind of people. Don't you dare ever change.

For those of you who read the NYT there is a short article by Frank Bruni, one of the opinion writers. He was also previously a NYT restaurant critic for five years. He detailed his unsettling experience at Noma of eating a live shrimp. He hesitated, and the waiter returned to say 'freshest shrimp you'll ever eat' and again to say when apparently it was moving slower, that it would die soon.

No we certainly can't be forensic accountants for all our purchases, but consumer preferences are critical in how our scarce resources are used. For example, it's consumer preference that built and then killed the fur industry based on their awareness of industry practices.

Yes Jinx for sure:

"Peanut butter is one of the most controlled foods in the FDA list; an average of one or more rodent hairs and 30 (or so) insect fragments are allowed for every 100 grams, which is 3.5 ounces.

"The typical serving size for peanut butter is 2 tablespoons (unless you slather). That means each 2 tablespoon-peanut butter sandwich would only have about eight insect fragments and a teensy tiny bit of rodent filth. (“Filth” is what the FDA calls these insect and rodent food defects.)

"Unfortunately, jelly and jam are not as controlled. Apple butter can contain an average of four or more rodent hairs for every 3.5 ounces (100 grams) and about five whole insects. Oh, and that isn’t counting the unknown numbers of teensy mites, aphids, and thrips."

Source https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/health/insect-rodent-filth-in-food-wellness/index.html#:~:text=Good%20choice!-,Peanut%20butter%20is%20one%20of%20the%20most%20controlled%20foods%20in,grams%2C%20which%20is%203.5%20ounces.&text=ditch%20these%20drinks-,The%20typical%20serving%20size%20for%20peanut%20butter,tablespoons%20(unless%20you%20slather).

I wouldn't turn down reindeer heart (given a reasonable price),but ANYTHING made of fruit leather would land in that ICK Factor thread hereabouts!

It is interesting that so many of these high-end vanity restaurants serve little bites of this and that, rather than giving one a choice from real meals.

little bites of this and that

I think that is for two reasons. One, it is such a rare treat to dine there, you don't want to try just one thing. Two, because there is some level of experimentation and innovation, you have to expect that not everyone will enjoy everything. Woe to have a big plate of something you don't care for.

To me, small plates is the best way to eat, hands downs. You always think you won't feel full (at least boyz tend to think that) but invariably you order one small plate too many and by the time it arrives your stomach has already sent the full signal...

What's a vanity restaurant?

Why wouldn't a tasting menu be a "real meal"? Many cuisines do function with a little of this and a little of that, even at an everyday level - sushi and tapas come to mind immediately. Tasting plates in Middle Eastern restaurants. The Dutch interpretation of Indonesian food called "Rijsttafel" where a dozen or more small dishes are served at once. Many, many examples.

Two of the highest rated high concept little bite/small plate restaurants here, will often have tasting menus, and I think once we had 14 courses over at least two hours. That works out to plenty of food. And I second the idea that with experimentation/innovation/the unusual it's generally much better to have a small taste of it than a giant plate full of it. No great loss in the big scheme of things if you don't like something, and not being overwhelmed by something if you do like it. One of the brunches here generally offers several dozen tiny portions of things in addition to the sort of "as much as you want" sort of brunch offerings. And you may not want to eat for an entire day after some of these meals eve though everything you ate was small.

Some of the more regular small plate places here recommend ordering as you go along during the meal, like an American/European version of dim sum.

Small plates work for me in general terms because I usually end up bringing half of any "normal" sized American portion home with me anyway.

Dim sum is a great example, it didn't come to mind because I don't really prefer that Cantonese style. Go to a Chinese restaurant with a large group and one is likely to have a dozen dishes passed around to take a taste of, that's another type too.

Points are taken, Mtn et al.... I did enjoy my experience with a work crowd at the then local Spanish tapas restaurant. And NYC dim sum restaurants are quite good. But it would seem hard to decline any dish with the overall price tag being as high as at some of those high end tasting menu places. (Even those things I am food-wise sensitive to, such as anything with pistachios in it....)

I always think about discretionary spending and what one ends up spending money on and sometimes it's interesting.

Once recently in Manhattan we ate at a restaurant where the drinks were $25 and we got a caviar tasting that was something like $90. (They had caviar tasting options that were $1000 just to put things in a perspective, so I am not trying to brag about spending 90 for some caviar, it just is what it is.)

And although I was dressed appropriately, I was wearing a pair of khaki pants that were $19. Ever since covid, I have had this mentality like "Whats the point of spending money on clothes?" But it would make much more sense to have spent $90 on the pair of pants and to try and find something to eat for $19. It's all very weird, the pricy food thing.

American portions

I think I have told this story, but we were in Hong Kong on New Years with the kids about a decade ago. As is often the case over holidays, the only choice for dinner was an elaborate multi-course meal. The last course was a selection of desserts, that they called "American style." When our dessert order came, each of them was on a dinner plate and each could have fed at least 6 people. That was what they mean by "American style." I found it downright offensive.

When I was growing up in a small town, there was one fine dining restaurant, and at one point there was none, and people belonged to the country club to have a place to go out to eat. It was not like an exclusive suburban club.

Anyway, my parents ate there every Friday as a minimum, if my mom got fish she would say "Do you have a little piece?" or "Just put a few french fries on the plate, I can't eat a whole lot". And of course everybody knew who she was and they did it. There were people that ordered a regular off menu meal and they did it.

So when I went away to school and we could go to real restaurants my mother would say "Can you give me just a couple french fries?" and of course they thought she was a weirdo, and finally the waiter said "The thing is, there is an expectation that the portions are going to be a certain size (this was before the nouvelle movement really caught on), and it's a pretty substantial portion, and things like potatoes are actually really cheap, so it's really not less expensive for us to give smaller portions than it would be to give larger portions, the labor is really the same, so that's why you get more food than you can eat. The portion size is set by people who want a certain amount of food for their dollar and some already complain that it's not enough".

Absolutely true that the ingredients are often less significant than labor and overhead, etc. Esp for potatoes. And yes some people expect big portions. However, I think some people have started to see big portions as declasse. When I want to specify a small portion I find a nice way to say that I understand you are charging the same. This is particularly true with ice cream cones. I do not understand ice cream cone size terminology.

Yeah my mother always said she was not angling for a discount, but that she just didn't like wasting food, because they were from out of town and it wasn't always convenient to take leftovers with them.

I need a definition of not understanding ice cream cone size terminology. There are different type of cones which because of the way they are made often are different sizes but other than one, two, or more scoops I have never heard of any cone size terminology.

Not cone size per se, but I've been in ice cream shops where "one scoop" is my idea of two. I usually order a kiddie cup.

Exactly! isn’t one scoop supposed to be … a singular scoop?

Somebody needs to take you shopping, Pal 😉

The old Thrifty drug store chain from Los Angeles was famous for its award winning, dime ice cream cones. They used this gun shaped scooper to cut cylinders. Just hold the gun with the barrel straight vertical, squeeze the trigger and lift. This was advantageous because the scoops stacked better with flat tops and bottoms, and made the triple scoop easy, and one presumes also because it gave a measured amount of ice cream per scoop. The only thing to learn was how to optimally place the scooper to get the most out of each layer in the tub, whereas rolling a good scoop of the right size and shape with a traditional scooper takes some practice. No arguments about size, either. :) (You can still get Thrifty ice cream at Rite-Aid, which ate it.)

In the old days, the Thrifty ice cream counters sold Carnation brand ice cream. It was good.

I had a teen job at a Baskin Robbins store in LA. Better ice cream than Carnation's in my view and more variety. No customer ever complained about my generous rounded scoops.

Interesting pllog...I've never seen one like that.

When it comes to portions, the last restaurant I had lunch at, I ordered a flat bread appetizer and it came the size of a small pizza. Who'd expect leftovers from an appetizer?

When we were on our sailboat tour of Panama & Costa Rica, the crew was French. The food was delish, the portions were small, I was always satisfied as there were several courses, but was surprised to find I'd lost weight when I got home! Nothing like real food, well prepared!

A local gelato place offers a bambino size cone— a perfect tasting amount

A local gelateria offers a bambino size cone— it’s a satisfying taste and very cute. i go for blood orange.

Is there a basic problem when art and commerce are in the same package?

I've been acquainted with two chefs -- one was (briefly) a family member, and one was Charlie Trotter. In my limited experience, the work eventually drives people crazy. The hours alone are crazy. Success leads to stress to continually prove your 'creativity' to a paying (and thereby critical) audience. Popular musicians aren't the only artists who use drugs to cope.

Charlie Trotter was a great restaurant.

Thrifty has had their own ice cream plant since before I was born (still owned by the new people). When they first started the ice cream counter, they bought local premium ice creams, according to what I've read. Maybe you're thinking of that. They supply ice cream to others, and sell it packaged for take home. I don't know if they buy their milk from Carnation, but they make the ice cream.

During the 50s to mid-60s, my childhood years to mid-teens, I believe the tubs had the word Carnation printed on the outside. Being in "the biz", it was something I paid attention to.

Perhaps, as I said, they used Carnation milk. They owned their own ice cream plant. Still do. Or maybe one store went rogue and that's what you saw. Or maybe you're thinking of one of their competitors.

My plan did not happen a few days ago; I did not win the $1.35 billion lottery.

I made a promise that if I did win. I would spend may be $50 million to buy an original Picasso. I would hire experts to make 10 identical museum quality copies to give away for free and burn the original in public.

The entire fine art world is so fake! Not only that there in no clothes, the emperor is not even there.

Back to cooking. How much can you charge for a few slices of un cooked fish? Now try to get a reservation at MASA, NYC. It will be about $1,000.00 per person, if you can get a reservation.

dcarch

As the Carnation company is no longer around, maybe Thrifty purchased its ice cream plant some years later. Thrifty Drug stores also used to sell packaged Carnation ice cream in small freezer sections. That in itself was a bit of a novelty because drug stores back sold few food items.

Horse's mouth. Interview with son of Thrifty: They did their own manufacturing and made a lot of different flavors. They had a plant in West Hollywood and eventually moved the operation to El Monte. It was very high quality and they were very proud to get awards at the L.A. County Fair. The price was quite low so we didn’t make a lot of money off it, but it got people in the store to buy other things. Same as every bit of info ever about Thrifty ice cream--they make their own. https://www.lamag.com/digestblog/thrifty-ice-cream-history/

According to Wikipedia, the first plant they bought, in 1940, was purchased from Borden. Were you thinking of Borden, rather than Carnation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrifty_PayLess#History_of_Thrifty

Thrifty make their own ice cream. Have since before either of us were alive. This is fact. Maybe they co-branded with Carnation or made ice cream for them or with their milk. Maybe it was Sav-on you're thinking of, not Thrifty. Maybe one store was mad at Thrifty and brought in Carnation instead. I don't know where your Carnation memories are coming from, but fact is fact. Thrifty has their own ice cream plant, where they make their own ice cream. A couple of sources cite a flash freezing process that makes it creamier with less butterfat. It's a thing. I know a lot of people who prefer Thrifty ice cream to more convenient premium brands.

Perhaps Thrifty made Carnation ice cream. My recollection is what it is.

Possible.

A factoid I saw several years ago is there are company's who develop ice cream flavors then license the use to various company's. While the base "cream" is not the same the flavoring mix is. Which may explain the different labels. Denali Flavorings/Ingredients is one of several company's that develop and sell these.

Somebody needs to take you shopping, Pal.

My uniform used to be Brooks Brothers and I have a bunch of 50 year old leather and shell cordovan dress shoes, so I actually used to care. Now I wear scrubs every day. Tidy scrubs, but scrubs.