It isn't uncommon for "thornless" roses to express some prickles. We had a white Banksiae in Encino which regularly threw canes with LARGE, hooked prickles. Reine des Violettes often throws bristly canes. I've even found ONE prickle on the large Annie Laurie McDowell in all the years I've grown it. "Thornless" is the anomaly, prickles are the "default", so for one without them to express them isn't that odd. The proclivity to black spot can be due to a variety of factors...maturity of plant; strain of fungus; different weather patterns from one year to another; different set of growing conditions between the previous plant and the new one; and likely quite a few others not gushing forth at the moment. If the foliage and flowers appear as the previous one, I'd think it's likely it is Veilchenblau.

Thanks, Kim. That had been my assumption. The BS was the thing that ultimately caused me to ask. The plant is still in a large pot, and it is more than conceivable that I have been neglectful of it on some level. (I never thought of it as a particularly thirsty rose, but the one I had at my last house did have a heckuva root system, which is largely the reason I lost my original plant when I try to bring it with me.)

You're welcome, Philip. Water stress, even for a short period, can foul up the immune system of a rose greatly. If that pot over heats or otherwise dries out, expect the rose to express diseases you may have never seen on it before. It's too bad you hadn't rooted some of the old plant to bring with you. It's a multiflora and roots easily. It's been used as a root stock, so you know it's EASY.

@philipatx Ditto all @roseseek just said. Plus I also wanted to chime in that I don’t think there are too many roses with blooms that resemble Veilchenblau, so yours is most likely that wonderful old rambler. In my experience, IDing Veilchenblau is a surer enterprise than IDing a lot of other roses. Very young Veilchenblau plants might resemble a smaller Polyantha rose cultivar like Baby Faurax or Kim’s/Roseseek’s Lauren, but Veichenblau will begin to produce long shoots without much delay. The other purple Multiflora ramblers don’t quite hit the distinctive mix of blue-grey-purple with a touch of white fading to the very distictive greyish mauve. The only other rose that has color changed exactly like that for me is Kim’s Lauren. I garden on a super tiny inner city lot, so I will likely need to dig and pass along my Veilchenblau very soon. I grow it because I just swoon over its lightly violet-scented, unique and unusual grey-purple blooms. (The scent is another indicator of this cultivar.) Thank goodness I now have Lauren! She is a MUCH smaller plant and much better suited to my urban postage stamp. Her blooms are so close to Veilchenblau’s that I actually had to look at the tag on my plant to see that it is indeed Lauren! I also have a rooted cutting of Veilchenblau in my potted rose nursery.

I was drawn to respond to your post because I experienced exactly the same thorn shock with Madame Plantier. I gave my mother plant to a friend who was starting a rose garden from scratch, but during transition, my MP somehow rooted in a crack (!) in my driveway near my potted nursery, and the offspring grew into a 3’x3’ mound…with thorns! Much thornier than the mother plant. Our thorny “thornless” roses are so weird, right?

Just for fun, Lauren and my thorny Madame P below. I have no idea how I’m going to dislodge MP without killing her. Strategizing…. Carol

Lauren—My phone can’t quite capture her true purple.

Madame Plantier growing in the driveway. You can see her thorns!

I got a not Veilchenblau from High Country Roses. It is probably Donau. I really love it. It has prickles.

Mel's Heritage photobombs

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR Your ”Not Veilchenblau” is lovely! And Mel, of course. :) I’ve never heard of Donau. I looked it up on HMF and read that it is often confused with Veilchenblau in commerce. HMF also refers to Donau as thornless, just like Veilchenblau. If I were a suspicious person, I’d say the Donau breeder snuck one over on the early 19th century rose community! What a couple of twin purple ramblers! Do you have a few minutes to share the differences you spot between Veilchenblau and Donau? I noticed Donau is listed as a Wichuraiana hybrid, one with Erinnerung an Brod in its heritage, but it has fringed sepals in close-up photos, just like Multifloras. Hmm. Thank you in advance for any insights you can offer, Sheila! I am very curious. Carol

Another of the violet "ramblers" often used for root stocks is IXL. TOTALLY thornless with thick, stiff canes and it reliably flowers even in hot, long summer, mild winter climates.

These aren't from well-tended garden plants, either, but rooted cuttings waiting to be used for root stock.

@roseseek Wow! This is such an informative thread! In all the years (more than I care to mention) that I’ve been gardening, I thought I was only seeing Veilchenblaus…that looked like Veilchenblaus. They were usually labeled as such or referred to as such by gardeners growing them. But now I wonder. Were they? And I wonder how many rose rustlers have collected IXL rootstock and thought it was Veilchenblau. I think now of all the rustlers who collected a stunning, red, velvet-petalled old rose growing ”wild” in a field that was…Dr. Huey. This is why I don’t forage mushrooms, and it‘s a good thing violet ramblers aren’t toxic killers. Heh. I must say, IXL is one of the prettiest root stocks I’ve ever seen! I’d be happy with that one taking over my garden. Ha, ha. Sorry, Dr. Huey. Do you know if IXL is the Multiflora that Palatine uses for grafting?

@philipatx My sincere apologies for kidnapping your thread and leading the conversation astray!

Carol

@portlandmysteryrose I doubt this is what Palatine uses. R. multiflora and several selections are generally used as stocks. This IXL is one of the virus indexed root stocks I collected to determine what worked well here. It does! It also roots easily....

Nice! And virus indexed, too. Couldn’t that just save a small corner of the world? Humming the tune of ”Imagine”—Imagine no mosaic virus.

My plant, Carol, really is great but does not really look like VB. Someone else got this Donau too on this forum.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR Thanks, Sheila. It looks like the blooms on your Donau are larger and more loosely formed than Veilchenblau? I was just checking out HMF again. There’s a photo of a Sangerhausen Donau with fringed sepals. I’m curious. Does your Donau have fringed sepals? Rene in Slovenia’s Donau looks like Veilchenblau to me, and Rene is questioning the Donau ID, too. Jedmar posted a not-Donau-but-Veichenblau from Gerlev Park. It looks like the errors are running in favor of Veilchenblau. Carol

Don't apologize for thread hijacking, @portlandmysteryrose . We are all learning.

I admittedly probably would recall enough to tell Veilchenblua from Violette from Donau from IXL from Bleu Magenta, etc... I think Kim knows the reputable person I ordered from and could suggest alternative plants I might check out if he believes such might exist, but for now I will assume I have the real deal. (Not sure but what I might have preferred to try one of the others! LOL I think they were sold out at the time I ordered.)

Thanks, all!

Carol, my Donau does not have fringed sepals. I saw Donau in Anne Belovich's Ramblers book where she mentioned it is frequently substituted for Veilchenblau by rose sellers.

These are for Magpie who wanted to see Bleu Magenta. I need more coffee.

Thank you Sheila, that rose is a dream.

@philipatx Thank you! I don’t have the space to grow many ramblers and have much to learn about this class of roses. I have downsized my garden, and I mostly grow Gallicas now plus some Moss roses, Damasks and Portlands and a few Hybrid Musks, Polyanthas and a very few, very select contemporary roses by mainly 3 breeders: Paul Barden, Kim Rupert and Tom Carruth.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR I hear you! Someone should invent intravenous coffee. I am about to pour a second, giant cup of very much needed black tea. Thank you so much for checking the sepals on your plant! Such a beautiful and curious cultivar. I should have gotten Anne B’s Ramblers book. (Kicking myself.) I have her other two: Gallicas and Mosses.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) I’m glad you asked Sheila for photos of Bleu M. What a spectacular, raspberries and purple sight! I see Melissa started a rambling rose thread. That is going to be juicy!

Carol