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michael_hilber

Interested in possibly buying this Buffet

3 years ago

What vintage would it be? 1940's I guess? What is that weird carving stuff on the front of it? Appears to be Tiger Oak? It would work well for storing some china, table cloth and napkins and silverware. I like the two doors and the two drawers. It is offered for $180 by the way.




Seller: Solid wood, Oak Finish, 51”Wx20”Dx36”H water stained top

Comments (43)

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    If the divisions in the lefthand drawer fit cassette tapes, that will tell you the age. I would say normal oak and they were careless in matching on the lower right side.

  • 3 years ago

    I'll go see it after the holiday. I assumed the divided drawer was to hold silverware.

    The seller has marked it as "Pending" but I'm not sure what that means, if someone else has agreed to buy it. If so that's fine, I was going to offer the full $180 anyway.

    Pending · Buffet

    $180, $200

    Listed a week ago in Santa Rosa, CA


  • 3 years ago

    Sinice the bottom left divided drawer is lined with baize, I would think that it was intended for silver eating utensils rather than cassette tapes as has been suggested. Stylistically it’s 1940s IMO.

  • 3 years ago

    It would sort of go with the oak draw leaf table I got which is also 1940's I guess. Oak with clear finish.

  • 3 years ago

    Pretty confident it's pre-cassette tape era...

  • 3 years ago

    This is much earlier than cassette era.

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I have a small dresser / armoire piece that I was told is @ 1920’s vintage. It has the same door & drawer hardware as yours. I like the embellishment at the top of doors on your piece. It leans Art Deco era to me. Here’s my piece



    Michael Hilber thanked KW PNW Z8
  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Late 30's oe very early 40's Remember there was pretty well no furniture being made in the US between 1942 and 45. Tiger oak top and perhaps on some of the veneer trim on the drawers. Definitly a diningroom piece, felt lined drawer configured for flatware. I think $180 is pretty well top dollar.

    Michael Hilber thanked linda campbell
  • 3 years ago

    @KW PNW Z8 " It has the same door & drawer hardware as yours. "

    Yes the handles are unusual and I like them.

    I will see it on Wednesday, unless someone else buys it before I get there. But I wanted to enjoy this holiday 4 day weekend, I have some plans and felt like putting off getting it.

    These comments make me think I should offer $150 instead of $120. It's not bad but obviously the top needs a new coat, of I'd say clear lacquer, which is what I used to refinish the oak table I got previously..

    Thank you all.

    Here is the table I bought a while back. It's the picture the seller took to advertise it.


  • 3 years ago

    @Michael Hilber I have a draw leaf table like that too! Top is 36” square with leaves stored & each leaf adds 12” when pulled out so table becomes 36”W x 60”. We used it in our kitchen breakfast nook in last house. In current home it’s upstairs bonus room game / puzzle table. Mine has 4 legs - one each corner. It had no chairs so we found 4 vintage oak chairs with the original upholstered leather seats which we replaced. I love older pieces. New furniture is great but older pieces are so much more interesting! Our coffee table is an oak library table that had been cut down & we have a vintage china cabinet - wooden shelves, glass front & sides which we use to display our Roseville pottery collection. I think your comment means you should offer $150 instead of $180 (not $120) & I agree. If seller still has the piece by then may be willing to accept less.

  • 3 years ago

    Well I bought it but after getting it home not so sure what I have. It is not an American made piece of oak furniture like I assumed. I saw it, liked the look of it, the color of the wood. It seemed bigger in person than i expected. I said I'll give you $150, not "offer you." She accepted, seemed reluctantly, like she would have preferred the full $180 or counter. But it was advertised two weeks, maybe more, and I was the only one to come see it. Husband is an architect but is starting to have dementia now. They are moving from Northern California to Oregon to live in a granny unit at their daughter's home so they can't keep everything. They have a grand piano too.

    Made in Estonia??? The bases of the drawers have a very thin 3 layer plywood, so that means it is not so old. The drawer sides and backs as well as the shelves are solid oak wood The damage to the top looks worse than expected based on the for sale pictures.

    This label was on the bottom side of one of the drawers. I am figuring it is the manufacturer. It's not just some random label someone just stuck there is it?









  • 3 years ago

    Have you looked up that trademark? Info I found is Venesta company was founded 1898 in UK & was first importer of furniture made with a pressed plywood & made collapsible tea chests. There was other info about furniture made @ 1930. Did the seller give you any info on where they found it?

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I just found this on another site selling old interesting furniture pieces. A bar cabinet has your label & this is part of the description:

    Hidden behind the left mirror plate is an applied Venesta ‘SUMNOT’ Made In Finland paper label. Venesta were importers of plywood and were used by prolific furniture makers Isokon. Marcel Breuer designed furniture for Isokon using Venesta plywood. This label doesn’t neccesarily mean the piece was made in Finland.


    The description also describes their piece as ”rare art deco Venesta plywood…” So, the art deco impression of your piece is right!

  • 3 years ago

    "Tear Drop" pulls, most likely brass.

  • 3 years ago

    Owner knew nothing about it. I asked "Would you call this art-deco? Do you have an idea of when it was made? Maybe 1930's?" She just said "I don't know," and "I have no idea." She just bought it somewhere from someone who gave no information on it.

    All hardware is there, no missing handles. The doors close nicely, there is a spring loaded steel ball so they "click" closed. Hinges on the doors are good, doors lined up and close without hitting.

    That label looks like a postage stamp stuck onto the drawer bottom. The back of the piece has nothing except the number 50 stamped into it, stamped number like you'd see stamped into metal automobile parts. I saw nothing on the bottom of the cabinet, but maybe I should look closer. I almost missed that label on the drawer bottom. I read that label may not be the furniture manufacturer but rather just refers to the maker of the very thin plywood used for the drawer bottom.

    Safe to say it is European, not American.

    I know it should be worth more than I paid, but it's really hard to sell furniture, not many people even show interest, and if they contact you there at least a 90% chance they will be a no-show..

  • 3 years ago

    It's beautiful and I'm glad it ended up in the hands of someone who is likely not to (it sounds like) slap some milk paint on it to flip it. Will you refinish the top yourself or take it to a furniture refinisher? I've been watching some great videos about refinishing on youtube and I especially like some of this woman's work and descriptions of what she's doing. Not all the videos have detailed narration, but some do.


    Transcend

    Michael Hilber thanked Olychick
  • 3 years ago

    I will do something with the top myself because I doubt any pro would want less than a couple hundred. The fellow who bought the Lane MCM coffee table from me, for $50, was going to refinish and sell it. He goes around in a van with his supplies and sometimes does refinishing of cabinetry in expensive homes. He would probably do it for me if I wanted.

    I changed my mind about doing the whole top. First I thought I'd do the whole thing, down to bare wood with some fine sandpaper then a clear lacquer with no stain because it looks like oak with clear finish. But that would lighten it too much.

    Probably end up leaving the undamaged areas of the top alone. Use a Scotchbrite pad on the damaged areas then wipe on Tongue oil varnish. Only on the damaged areas to seal them. It should not take much to make it look good enough. On the water damaged areas you can feel the grain of the wood, like the original finish is gone, and the wood needs to be sanded back down smooth. Maybe I'll use some fine sandpaper on a small block of wood, but just use it on the areas that are not smooth.

  • 3 years ago

    I have learned what the word VENESTA on the label means. It's a made up word, a combination of VENE and ESTA and refers to VENEER - ESTONIA, so it means veneer from Estonia. Veneer is what they called the plywood they made there in Estonia. Apparently this Estonian plywood was shipped to other countries like Finland, Denmark to make midcentury modern and art deco furniture. So the label on the drawer bottom refers to the plywood used only. It is saying "This piece of furniture includes some of the very famous Estonian Plywood (Veneer)"

    It's interesting that this plywood was being made a decade or two before there was any significant use of plywood in America.

    Here is a stool made of Venesta plywood https://r-and-company.com/works/stool-by-luterma-for-venesta-st707/

  • 3 years ago

    Fascinating. Thanks for posting what you've learned. I would have had no idea. I wonder where your piece was made.

  • 3 years ago

    Michael - that’s one of the pages I saw when I was searching on the label name. It is pretty interesting.

  • 3 years ago

    It's a nice piece.....chances are big it was finished with shellac. If so denatured alcohol ( AKA shellac thinner) on a rag should remove the finish on the top....AND that white haze with it. If the alcohol doesn't take it easily, like melting sugar, it may be lacquer and you need lacquer thinner to take it. If you do elect to do that, be careful not to drip and you may be able toi just remove the finish on the top and add new without doing the whole piece. PLEASE don't sand it....that removes not only the finish but also any patina and/or stain on the wood.

  • 3 years ago

    Looks like I cannot get Denatured Alcohol in California

    Crown 1 Qt Denatured Alcohol

    Note: Due to Governmental State VOC compliance policy, this product could not be shipped in California and Colorado. You may provide an alternative shipping address that's not CA or CO.

    I checked my home supply store. They don't have it. Just Acetone, Paint thinner/mineral spirits and Lacquer thinner. Same with ACE Hardware, they show denatured alcohol online, but not available in stores.


  • 3 years ago

    Grainger Industrial supply will not let me order it.


  • 3 years ago

    Try a company that supplies chemicals to schools and similar organisations.

  • 3 years ago

    When I lived in Los Angeles there was a place that sold chemical supplies, including things that could be used in High School chemistry. I bought some sodium hydroxide from them; not something you'd be able to get elsewhere. I just don't think I'll get denatured alcohol by way of any legitimate retail sale; it's outlawed now in California because it evaporates too fast.

    Whole top, two main water marks, but the finish is almost completely worn off in other areas too. As far as the water mark on the left, it's down to bare wood there, the water caused the finish to lift off and disappear.


    Left water mark missing finish:



    Right mark before some "cleanup":



    Right mark after some cleanup:


    So it just lessened the ring a bit. Not only is it still clearly visible, but you can also see finish apparently completely worn off along the high grain below the water stain.

    This will need some painting. I am thinking clear shellac, like Linda said it's likely Shellac. Shellac can be bought in either clear or "amber" which has some tint to it, but not much. Maybe amber, not sure.


    So now what to do before applying some new finish? The left water mark cannot be cleaned up at all because the issue is the original finish is gone. So I'll thin about it I guess, how to prep the surface, before coating the whole thing.

  • 3 years ago


    This picture I posted before shows it better because it was taken outside in sunlight. Clearly shows some bare wood exposed.

  • 3 years ago

    Well, denatured alcohol is just ethanol with a tiny amount of methanol added to make it undrinkable so you could use ethanol or isopropyl alcohol, which is chemically close.

  • 3 years ago

    Can you buy everclear in cali? How about 150 proof rum? Either would do the trick.

    I have had pieces with a stain that I couldn't remove without deep sanding and I got crafty with a coujple of cheap water color brushes and a couple of different colors of stain.....and mineral spuirits to dilute. One piece even had deep gouges and I filled them in with plastic wood ( the dry stuff you mix with water) and sanded smooth and painted on grain to match the rest.....and you can't evven tell!

  • 3 years ago

    @colleenoz That is actually what I used thus far, isopropyl alcohol. It seemed to lessen the ring around the stain on the right a bit, but as I look at it right now the ring is definitely still there, even seems to look like it's "coming back" as it looks more prominent now compared to the improvement I seemed to see on the day I wiped it. But the "water stain" on the left there is no reason to even wipe it with alcohol because it is essentially bare wood, the water spill cause the finish to lift off and disappear.

    This piece is not like my draw leaf table at all, which has a thick finish on the top and thin finish on the legs. This buffet, the finish on the top was just as thin as the finish on the sides.

    @linda campbell I may not even try to "remove stains" as I could end up making things worse. Others seem to use Oxalic acid but I have no experience with it, plus if you apply it, then you need to wash it off with water because you need to get rid of the "acid" after it does it's job because if you leave it you can't finish over it and it will continue to degrade (bleach the wood more).

    https://www.google.com/shopping/product/11023177848392102278

    Oxalic acid is one of the finest bleaching agents, especially for use on wood

    It is also an effective rust stain remover which can be used to remove stains & dirt that most mild bleaching agents cannot remove

    This is one of the finest available wood bleaching agents. Use it to lighten dark streaks and colorations in wood so it will stain to a uniform color. It's also an effective rust and stain remover that works to remove many water stains, chemical stains and dirt where milder bleaching agents fail. It's not as harsh as the two-part bleaches and results in a more even color when bleaching smaller surfaces. With Oxalic Acid, wood will retain more of its original character. It comes in powder form as dry crystals and must be mixed in hot water. Use only on bare wood.

    I might use some 600 grit sandpaper on it. This is extremely fine and will not even remove the existing finish on the areas where it is intact. On the area where the finish is missing it should smooth the wood a bit without altering patina too much. Sanding aged wood will lighten it as the top surface is darker. Then go over it with several thin coats of Shellac. This may mean there will still be staining under a new finish layer. That's OK with me; mainly I do not want the top surface to have any bare wood exposed. Could also use some fine steel wool instead of sandpaper. You need to do something to prep the surface before putting on a fresh coat of shellac, at least some fine abrasion, and de-wax, de-grease. Paint thinner, lacquer thinner I am reluctant to use because it could soak into what finish is still there and turn it all milky white. Maybe I will try a little, very carefully though and wipe it off real quick.

    I think the bottom line is I don't care too much about the staining, just want to put a new coat of finish on it so there is no exposed bare wood. Should be clear from the picture that there are spots on the top where bare wood is exposed.

  • 3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Oxalic acid isn’t an ”acid”, it’s an acid. The instructions for mixing it in hot water result in a supersaturated solution of oxalic acid. I would wear black nitrile gloves and safety glasses as well as a rubber apron while using it.

    You could neutralise it with a similarly saturated solution of baking soda in water. Be sure any run off doesn’t go anywhere that will be affected by an acid.

  • 2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    I am refinishing the top of this buffet today. I bought some Amber Shellac. I also got a bottle of Denatured Alcohol. Got it for free from a recycling center. They give away paint, and mineral spirits and stuff like that, if people bring it in for disposal. If the container is intact, they give it away to anyone who wants it, to reduce how much stuff they need to dispose of. It will be 97 degrees today in Northern California, so Shellac should be able to dry OK. I am wondering if I should use a "lint-free cloth" or a natural bristle brush. I remove the strip of wood along the back, which is something like a "backsplash." This exposed what the finish on the top looked like originally. Very dark looking finish. I guess the rest of the top is much lighter due to exposure to light.

    I am going with shellac even though I am not sure if the original finish was shellac. Hope it was. The top has an area where all finish is gone, down to bare wood. I chose Amber Shellac because this bare wood is light, and figure using clear shellac would not give it enough color to blend with the rest. Part of the top was down to bare wood, and the other area had a water stain with an ugly blackish ring I'd really like to remove or at least minimize. Trying to get it out may mean that will go to bare wood too.


    (Picture shows the finish under where the backsplash was)

  • 2 years ago

    I sanded the entire top. This is what it looks like now. The black ring area is mostly down to bare wood, but you can still see the blackish ring, some removed but not all. I guess this is as good as it gets. Will wipe with alcohol, to remove dust and clean. The finish on this top was very fragile, lifts off easily, and obviously something like a vase or pitcher of water was set on it.


  • 2 years ago

    The second coat has gone on now. it is still wet in these pictures.




    I had decided to sand, wipe with alcohol, and coat with new shellac, the top surface of the "backsplash" strip as well. It had white specks on it, as if roller splatter from someone painting inside the house. Here is a picture of it sanded and wiped with alcohol, and then after the first coat.




  • 2 years ago

    Michael - this is quite an ambitious project! The results so far are quite pretty. Will love to see a pic of finished piece.

    Michael Hilber thanked KW PNW Z8
  • 2 years ago

    The water stains are still quite visible. But I am OK with that. The main thing is i did not want to ruin the "patina." The aged reddish color. So I sanded lightly with very fine grit and did not sand into the wood, except a little bit where the finish had come off. The top needed to be coated so it is useable.

  • 2 years ago

    This woman does an exceptional job refinishing furniture and I think you could pick up some tips on removing your stains and refinishing your furniture. I know there are plenty of others, but I really think she has a special talent:

    Transcend Furniture Gallery

  • 2 years ago

    Michael - wow! Great job & what a nice transformation. I love the front decorative panel decoration. What will you use this for? A dining / storage buffet as you described? It makes a nice TV console as seems to have been used for by seller but it’s a shame to hide the “backsplash’ strip as you called it.

  • 2 years ago

    Looking good! Remember that a shellac finish is verfy vulnerable to water rings ( as you saw in the original finish), I have put a coating of Polyurethane over a shellac finish with good results. Just let it dry very VERY well before you add the poly.


  • 2 years ago

    Here's what someone else said about this Buffet:


    Doesn't get more 1930s British than that, with the oak, Jacobean legs, and bas-relief stylized flowers (a hallmark it seems of middle-class British art deco). As to the Venesta label:

    Luther Mechanical Woodworking Factory) was renowned for its high quality plywood, which was used for the manufacture of suitcases and pails as well as furniture. ... In 1908 Luterma established a sister company in London, the Venesta Plywood Company (the name Venesta deriving from Veneer and Estonia)...


    As for how I am going to use it, goes in the dining room to replace a smaller cabinet, one that has wood doors, but also particle board for the sides. This will be larger and look much nicer. I think I'll look for a white cotton placemat or small table runner type thing to put on it, so the top will be partly hidden and protected. Also try to not put much on top of it. Store the china and silverware in it. Mainly I wanted to coat the top without destroying the patina so I didn't want to take it down to bare wood. But the finish was thin and some was bare wood already. Finish is thin on the doors and sides too, but I'll just leave that as-is.

  • 2 years ago

    Good plan for its use. If you put a cloth on top for protection it might be nice to find something with darker colors or gold tones so that it doesn’t pop out or distract from this piece.

  • 2 years ago

    No help with questions but wanted to say I really love the design of your buffet. The handles dangling really compliment the carvings. Very nice proportions to everything.

  • 2 years ago

    It has a whole lot of storage space.. Height of the top is 36 1/2 inches, 36.5 inches. 52 inches wide and 20 inches deep approximately. The legs lifting it up off the floor, almost one foot, help the overall look tremendously. Most buffets are not 36 inches high. I like the extra height.

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