Aluminum clad wood also works. Make sure to use sdl if you are using Insulated glass. If you still have your original wood windows seriously consider repairing them

If you have old double hung windows with iron counterweights, they can be restored to new for a lot less than buying old windows.

Oh, joy! You again. The replacement window king. OK, here you go: Your Old Windows, Restore or Replace?

Your link gives no cost , gives zero detail on what was done to old windows . The tech for the new windows was outdated even for the time and does not disclose what window was used. I do my fair share of rehab work . To restore and old window to like ”new” then add weather stripping and a quality storm can easily out price a new window . l I think tou have no clue what a quality storm window cost or what it takes tlo rehab am old window to like new and to even better.

@toddinmn

Pull you head out, son.

You obviously did not read all three parts.

The information you noted is contained therein.

True, the cost of restoring an old window can easily exceed that of a vinyl window, but not a new wood window and certainly not a shop-build replacement window of the same quality as the old window..

Most of the windows we restore are old growth oak. You can't even get that wood today, and if you could it would cost a fortune.

Since we have rehabbed well over 3,000 old windows, I think we have a very good idea of what it takes and what it costs.

If you are charging more than the cost of a quality wood replacement window to fully restore an old window, you are overcharging.

@StarCraft Custom Builders

What do you mean the "replacement window king"? Have you even read any of my postings? Guessing not in this case because your commentary is sadly inaccurate (and lacking detail as @toddinmn points out).

With regularity, especially in those cases where warranted, I recommend folks restore their wood windows. Those warranted cases are few and far between though and mostly apply to those folks that either want to keep their older windows or have a historic window that is of a suitable timber strand that it is both salvageable and worth keeping (i.e. historic).

The missing dose of reality in your post as every other poster that clucks "restore, restore!!" is touched on by Todd's post. Usually lacking in the following details:

1. A realistic comparison in energy performance. A single pane wood window will NOT perform anywhere near newer technology and sealed IGUs.
2. A realistic expectation of expense. The link you post is, of course, lacking any pricing information or discussion on the scarcity of folks that still do this work. Again, like I said before, prove your statement that they can be restored for "lot less" than new windows. When doing so, be sure to do so in a manner that requires a lead certified contractor and observing all the current regulations on handling lead containing materials.

I am actually interested to see the pricing on this so that future readers can learn from this as well.

Looking forward to your follow up.

Most of these comments are not helpful to me at all. Not what I expected from this site.

@ Windows on Washington Ltd

Sorry I hurt your feelings.

I have indeed read your posts but also taken note that you work for a company that sells vinyl replacement windows. Your company has a sterling reputation with an A+ BBB rating. Very commendable. But, your posts definitely slant toward replacement rather than preservation through restoration.

Repeated field studies have shown that a restored single pane wood window has an R-value of 1.1. A restored single pane wood window with a storm window rates at R2.2 or slightly higher. An average dual panel modern window (Andersen, Pella, etc.) also rates at R2.2 or a little higher.

Add low-E to either window and the R-value can reach R-3 or so.

When you compare a single pane window to a dual pane window and dramatically proclaim the latter as the better window, you are not comparing apples to apples. You need to add the storm window to get apples to apples

The window/storm rating should not be a mystery. A window/storm combination is in effect a dual-pane window with an air gap of several inches rather the 1/2" or less common in the integrated class units used in dual panel windows. So, dual-pane to dual-pane, a similar performance should be expected.

Admittedly, some of the German and Canadian super-triple-pane windows can reach an R-value to 9.9 with low-E coatings and Krypton gas fills, but (1) the Krypton eventually leaks out reducing the R-Value to something link R-5.5 and (2) these are super-expensive to go along with their super-efficiency. As much as $4,000 per unit (not including installation).

For a full set of 32 super-windows for my old house, the price would be $128,000 stacked in my garage. And I still would need to have them installed.

For that price, I would save about $324.00 a year in utility costs, meaning that it would take more than 395 years to recoup the cost of the windows from energy savings. Since even super-windows seldom last more than 40 years, this does not seem like a good deal to me. Maybe you can provide more insight.

Super windows are not affordable for most of my customers, and I would not recommend them if they were. They simply are not cost effective south of Calgary, Alberta.

So what average replacement windows do is provide the same R-value performance as a window/storm, by scrapping the storm and a very good quality wood window usually made of old-growth oak or pine, designed to last hundreds of years, for a window that will last no more than 40 years at best. Forgive me if I don't think this is a very good deal either.

(Notice that I am using the familiar R-value rather than the mysterious U-value preferred by window companies.)

The details supporting my position on restoration vs replacement are amply explained in our well-researched article, Old Windows, Restore or Replace? I see no reason to duplicate them here. So the details - lots and lots of well-footnoted details - are not missing from my earlier posts, you just did not bother to read them.

But, I think we can settle the argument right here. Name a replacement wood double-hung window made from old-growth wood between 24 and 48 inches in width and 36-72 inches in height that costs less (installed) than our average price for restoring a old wood window of $423, and I will concede the field to you.

Always a pleasure talking to you.

I think you nay need to look at some windows and decide what material is gonna work. A vinyl window that a paintable interior probaly going to cost as much as a clad wood window.

I apologize that we got into a largely irrelevant debate and failed to answer your specific concerns.

You can buy paintable/stainable vinyl windows, but our experience with them has not been particularly good and they are fairly expensive.

The best results flow from buying the window in a color that suits you. Admittedly the palette is limited, usually white, almond, tan, brown, or beige. Some companies offer wood grain interior finishes that are sort of convincing if not examined too closely. But, again, these are expensive.

Unitech may be the color champion with 30 interior colors. But, the windows are only sold in eastern Canada. Of course, if you are willing to hire a customs broker, you can import them, but again $$$.

Colored vinyl windows, or paintable/stainable windows often cost nearly the price of wood windows

Two reasons not to paint:

1. Painting pros generally advise against painting vinyl. No matter how much prep is done and what kind of paint is chosen, no paint will last as long as the original vinyl, Paint can chip and leave the windows looking unsightly after a while.

2. Painting can nullify your window warranty. Make sure you clear it with the manufacturer before proceeding.

To make the paint last as long as possible:

1. Thoroughly prepare the vinyl. Was with soap and water, then rinse with Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) mixed with water per instruction on the can. Again rinse completely. Wear a mask when working with TSP. You do not want to breath the stuff.

2. Lightly sand the vinyl with a 220 grit open coat paper to give the vinyl some "tooth" that the primer can grip.

3. Most paint does not stick well to vinyl, so use a boning primer. Every paint manufacturer has a bonding primer for vinyl (e.g. Sherwin Williams Extreme Bonding Primer). The primer sticks to the vinyl, the paint to the primer.

4. Test the bonding primer before proceeding, as follows:. Apply the primer to a small out-of-the- way section of the window. Let it completely dry (how long varies, read the instructions on the can), then an extra 24 hours. With an Xacto or other very sharp knife, cut an X in the middle of the test patch. Stick a piece of 3M painter's tape over the patch and press it down firmly. If the binder comes off with the tape, the bond is no good.

5. Mask off the glass and adjacent trim with Frog Tape.

5. Avoid dark colors. Dark paint absorbs more heat than and may cause the window to warp and even crack the glass. Vinyl tends to warp anyway and there is no reason to add to the risk.

6. Use a paint safe for vinyl such as Sherwin-Williams VinylSafe or Benjamin Moore Colors for Vinyl.

7. Once the paint is thoroughly dry, score the joint between the sash and frame with a very sharp knife. You want to break any paint bridges between the sash and frame so you don't damage the paint the first time you open the window.

Hope this helps.

@StarCraft Custom Builders

No worries and I assure you that there was no feelings "injury". The internet lacks context sometimes.

Here is a long discussion on the comparison in energy efficiencies and an exhaustive dive into the repair vs. replace argument with some great commentary from the resident glazing expert in @oberon

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2639458/repair-don-t-replace-old-wood-windows

Good read for anyone faced with a similar project. Goes into the ins and outs a bit and you'll note, in many instances, where posters like myself, @toddinmn , and @HomeSealed Exteriors, LLC are coaching folks on how to best go through the decision process and recommending restoration in some cases.

Your energy calculations and claims about gas leakage are a bit off and up for discussion. A fairly standard replacement window these days will be an R-4 with double pane and R-5 and change with triple pane in a non-exotic format. Gas leakage rates are Euro spec in most cases and less than 1% per annum. Saying the gas is going to leak out is a bit of an outdated talking/scare point.

Also, your cost comparison for fuel savings on a window install assigns zero cost to the restoration process. The vast majority of windows are bought and installed for the purposes of replacing failing product with the energy consideration being secondary.

If it were just a function of energy costs, plastic shrink foil to the interior and some bondo in the rotted wood will be the most cost effective option and the customer can fight with the storm window when they want to get some fresh air. Folks do love hanging out their windows to wrestle with a good triple track.

The the decision is rarely so cut and dry. As stated before, if the customer loves their wood windows or they are of a historic nature and appropriate timber strand, restoration is a great option. The difficulties ranging from:

1. Actual qualified labor to complete said work (not sure if you noticed but the market isn't full or good trim carpenters these days...I am sure you struggle to find qualified folks as do we all)
2. Cost
3. Sourcing of era correct replacement parts
4. Lead procedures and the fact that the window will still be lead containing (many parents worry about this factor)
5. 2 part operation to ventilate (i.e. operation of storm window from inside)
6. Visual encroachment on the view area from the storm window (ultimately creates a smaller opening size when viewed from the interior than a replacement window if looking other than straight out of the window).

Having recommended it to several clients of mine in historic sectors of The District...the issue was the labor. There used to be a guy here that was local and had a great shop behind his home in Takoma Park. He close up shop with the onerous regulation of the RRP and some complaints from clients. He was getting near retirement age anyway, but when I spoke to him he was fed up with the compliance and BS. I haven't found anyone that is qualified to replace him as a recommended contractor.

Rather than full window replacements, we used jamb kits when we needed to replace our windows. Home is late 1970's vintage. The window frames were in very good condition and the exterior sills also in very good condition.

On the windows that were exposed, we used aluminum clad exterior/ wood interior. On the windows under the porch, we used all wood and painted the exterior.

Kolbe & Kolbe and Weathershield double hung jamb kits. Weathershield may no longer make jamb kits but I think Kolbe still does. Both companies are local to me (Wisconsin). You may have other sources in your region of the country.

https://www.kolbewindows.com/kolbewindows/media/Brochures/brochure_DHRSK_5024090.pdf

Replacement was DIY. Also, we ordered them unfinished so we could match the stain on the interior. I finished the interior side and painted the exterior on the windows that were not clad. Cost at the time (15 years ago?) was much less than full replacement. The finishing part was time consuming but actual install was fast and easy.

Our old windows had the modern style jamb liners whereas your windows may have the old rope, pulley weight system. (I don't know if the jamb kits will work with that style.) We just popped the old jamb liners out and replaced with the new jamb liners in the kit.

The 'window guys' were all pitching single hung pocket window replacement which was why we went with the DIY jamb kits. When I asked about jamb kits, they all acted like they didn't know what I was talking about. I wanted to stay with double hung windows and did not want to lose glazing surface area.

They would more normally be referred to as "sash packs". A decent option if your sills, jamb, and other exterior wood surfaces are intact and suitable.

Folks will have issues with them when the openings are more racked and if they are sensitive to air leakage. Sash packs are well known for being a bit less airtight given their finicky nature and sensitivity to be installed in a square opening.

Most clients don't want to paint and trim cladding will be the route they will go to create a more maintenance free home/exterior.

Depending on the window, the loss of glass can be minimal, if at all. As mentioned above, the fact that a wood window with a storm presents as a larger glass opening on the interior is generally true...but lacks the accurate context of how the storm window encroaches on the viewable presentation from any view but the perpendicular.

Sash kits can be fast and easy, but so can a insert window. Both require more expertise when openings are racked., I see more . Rarely see a sash kit installed right unless the openings are square and true to size. They get less cost effective if a new storm window is needed, are more difficult to open and tilt in , cleaning iis more complex with a storm window and they have an exposed vinyl jambliner that is typically white or beige.

Andersen also sells them in the E-Series line.

@ci_lantro

We use sash packs in preference to full replacements when the original jambs are in good condition, square, and parallel. Otherwise the packs will give endless trouble.

They are, as toddinmn said,, more susceptible to problems from poor installation. The jamb liners have be perfectly vertical and exactly parallel.

I installed jamb liners in one window of one of our bathrooms. I removed the sashes and had them remilled to fit the new liners, then reinstalled the original sashes. THE BOSS wanted that particular window to tilt in for easy cleaning. You can't make a traditional DH window tilt in.As far as I know, however, it has never been tilted in or cleaned in 20 years.

Curious as to your general location and what you paid per window.

@Windows on Washington Ltd.

I found a good explanation of the different types of custom window replacement at windowsonwashington.net. You may heave heard of it.

They can be installed in less then perfect openings. There are methods to overcome these barriers. 15 year old pricing is irrelevent now.

@toddinmn

They can be installed in less then perfect openings.

Of course they can, but it takes more work and more time, therefore it costs more. As a general rule, if the diagonal measurements of the frames differ by more than 1/8", we add a surcharge.

15 year old pricing is irrelevant now.

Fifteen year old pricing may be out of date, but the relationship between prices is exactly the same as it was 15 years ago and probably will be the same 15 years from now.

You measure each window opening diagonally before you order or you do it at point of installation then present surcharge? Seems a bit odd either way . The price increases during covid throws your scale out of wack.

Well, I think every question has been answered except the OP's original qiery: Which are the best wood replacement windows. The answer depends on what the OP means by "best."

Undoubtedly the best windows are those rated by Passivhaus criteria.

These triple-glazed, low-e, gas-filled windows can be rated to R-11, but they are incredibly expensive.

Most are made in Germany and don't come in a double-hung configuration.

I went to school in Germany and lived there for several years. I don't remember seeing double-hung windows anywhere, even in U.S. military housing. I don't think they are used in Europe, in part because they are so hard to seal.

The common configurations are French windows that swing in and tilt-and-turn widows that swing in from the sides and also open at the top for summertime ventilation. (See image).

On both these types of windows, the seals can be compressed by cleverly-designed latches to compress the seals and really block air infiltration. Double-hung windows have sashes that need to slide past each other, so that level of air-blocking is not really possible. It would keep the windows from operating.

Moving down from Passive House quality,more typical triple-glazed windows are widely available up to about R-7. Again, these rely on low-e coatings and fill gases. Figure prices starting at about $2,500 per window.

Double-glazed units runt $500 to $1800 dollars, averaging out at about $1,200. The windows on the low side are usually not with having and those on the high side may require a second mortgage.

Our choice for good quality wood replacement windows is Kolbe, but expect to pay. A little lower on the quality totem pole would be Andersen Renewal. We have had problems with Andersen in the past, including a batch of sliding windows that did not slide because someone forgot to install the rollers the windows slide on. But, generally our experience has been satisfactory.

We bought Pella windows a couple of times and never will again. The company needs to put less money in advertising and more in quality improvement

For vinyl windows, our choice would be Milgard. The windows are of good quality, and the company has the best window warranty in the U.S. But, it does not operate outside the Western U.S. and Canada plus Alaska, so they may not be available where you are.

Your best bet, however, is to get estimates from as many companies as you can tolerate. It is often the case that regional window companies make very good products, and may be a good bet. We have one here that we use for most of our wood window replacements these days, and have never had a call-back.

@toddinmn

We measure when we estimate on the possibly foolish assumption the the measurements will not change much between estimation and delivery.

You may not know this, but if you wait until delivery to add surcharges to the estimate, you may end up with a very pissed off customer. We hate that. It makes it hard to collect payment.

Exactly what problems did Covid cause in your area that skewed prices so dramatically?

I think we had as many issues as everyone else and all it did was widen the price difference between restoring wood windows that remained the same, and replacing wood windows that increased somewhat. Plus it added several weeks to lead time for replacements, but none to restores.

Hope this helps.

Did I miss a picture of the current windows?

Kolbe would be on my short list of good wood windows as well. RBA isn't any more wood and Trex is wood, but wouldn't be on my list either way. If they don't trust it to put triple glass in it, I don't trust it with double pane.

@Cindy Bergstrom

What sort of picture were you looking for?

@Windows On Washington

OK, Renewal is Fibrex these days, a wood-plastic composite. I don't like WPC in decks, but it seems to work OK in windows. I didn't know Andersen made a triple pane.

SCB

Diagonal measurements would be time consuming and pointless for me. Adusting the frames and sashes for width, depth and squareness is built into my price . Window prices go up around 3% a year , during covid it was around 10%. The increase in 3 year period was about equal to a typical 10 year period.

What would you charge to restore/ enhance an old wood window 30x62 no muntins to these specs?

Rerope, remove lead paint from the exterior side only, reglaze, prime and paint, replace parting stop, install interlocking zinc weatherstrip on the sides, bulb weatherstrip at the top , bottom and checkrail , clad the well and blindstops in aluminum coil . adjust, shim, cut sashes to fit. How about adding a storm window to that?

What storm you gonna use?

I’ll do it with a sash kit painted/stained on both sides with a dual paned cardinal 272 insulated glass pack, all adjustments accounted for, clad the wells and blindstops for $1000. Add a Casco 2 -track storm with clear glass would be another $300. This is without tempered glass. Here’s a chance for you restoration specialist to step up and give us a damn price for once, then we can talk about comparing prices with real numbers .

Why didnt you two companies exchange emails and have your battle there? i dont know how that heped the author of the original poat. i got so sick of reading the back and forth bull- that after a few fomments i scrolled fien trying to find comments from someone other than you two ”professionals”.

@Cindy Bergstom

Hey now! Temper, temper. The fact that your started this thread does not mean you own it. Responders are allowed to go where they please and say what the want so long as Houzz rules are obeyed.

@toddinmn

Okey dokey, you have you way of doing things, we have hours. 'nuff said.

StarCraft Custom Builders- i am NOT the author of this post. Nor am i ignorant to custom building. My father made a career out of it for over 40+ yrs.

There were some good options put out there. At sone point Kcoosh needs to look at some products and get pricing. About all we know is wood windows are wanted at vinyl pricing. Instead of adding fuel to the fire , why not give a solution ?

SCB: How about that pricing? Rehabbing is a viable option but the cost is always a mystery.

@toddinmn

The OP got an answer to both of her questions.

(1) My "thoughts" on the best wood window and

(2) Whether vinyl windows can be painted.

See above.

Evidently Cindy is not satisfied with the answers. Sorry 'bout that. However, I think the answers are pretty complete.

Rehabbing cost is never a mystery.

It is until you give a number.

@toddinmn

Good Lord, man! Our average price for restoring a traditional double-hung wood window is $423.00. It has already been stated in this thread at least five times. See above.

You listed the price once and gave zero details.

I gave a detailed example of rehab and included storm window as well. It would be difficult to make any money at the specs Listed for $423.

@toddinmn

Really! Gave the price just once? Try searching this thread for the following:

1. .. our average price for restoring a old wood window of $423, and I will concede the field to you.
2. ... between the cost of replacement and the cost of restoration which would be $1200-$423=$777.
3. ... work we do and factored into our $423.00 average cost.

OK, three, not five times.

The price includes all of the work described in How We Rebuild Old Windows.

Those are some pretty good details, lots of add ons in red, don’t see anything about painting the exterior side wells and blindstops which they all usually need. I think weatherstripping the the tops, bottoms and check rail are important for a better airseal. In the end there are parts that dtill contain lead paint which is important to some. Adding a storm will add much cost, most old storms I run into are in poor shape.

@toddinmn

I just deleted my last comment because it was snotty. Sorry.

The average price is average.

Most windows do not need $423 worth or work, some need more and a few need much more. That's why its called an average.

We usually do not paint because most exterior trim is already painted, and painting trim is not part of window repair.

We don't usually add storm windows because well over 96% of the houses already have working storms.

All of this, however, is already figured in to the average.

You can keep identifying little peripheral task sometimes but rarely needed in a window restore and I will tell you the same thing. If it needs doing we will do it and charge for it. But, it's already figured into the average.