Mary Rose v Bishop's Castle

last year

last modified: last year

Hey folks. Long time reader, first time poster. Thank you all for sharing your rose knowledge over the years. This forum has become an essential resource for me as a new gardener.

Availability may ultimately be the determining factor of which one of these roses I choose, but can anyone discuss the differences between DA's Mary Rose and Bishop's Castle? I'm particularly interested in how they thrive in humidity and sun, habit, and how they handle black spot and powdery mildew in a no spray garden. The blooms look nearly identical to me, although perhaps Bishop's Castle's blooms are a bit larger and a darker shade of pink.

I see that BC is available via Heirloom Roses, and that Mary Rose is still listed on DA's US site with the option to sign up for an email alert, which I assume means it will eventually become available. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting this, or if you know of any other good sources for these roses. Or, should I choose something else all together?

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noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)

last year

last modified: last year

I grow Bishop's Castle and Winchester Cathedral (which is a sport, a white mutation of Mary Rose, but I can't tell you if it grow exactly like Mary Rose). I live in a very different climate than you, so take my experience with that in mind.

Bishop's Castle is a much larger bush for me than Winchester Cathedral, but either can produce long canes by the end of the season, especially if they get enough water (it's very dry here). BC has much larger thorns, particularly with certain fertilizers. BC has slightly smaller flowers, but more numerous. A candelabra can hold 50 or more buds, WC has maybe 8 or 10 buds to a spray, max. BC is more susceptible to dry winds and thrips (may not be an issue for you in NC).

They both rebloom quite well. BC seems a bit better in the heat, since WC loses flower size and form in high heat. BC is a slightly darker pink, and both seem to hold their color well through the life of the flower (i.e. on the occasional flowers that that appear on WC that have reverted to the pink of Mary Rose). WC has a looser flower form, and often a button eye, BC is a little more refined (although not as refined as say, Louise Odier), and is slightly cupped. BC has a powdery rose face-powder fragrance, which I like better then WC's "almond blossom" fragrance (I think there is a tiny bit of acrid tang to the fragrance). My friend whose favorite fragrance is rose, considers BC to have her favorite fragrance in my garden. BC's fragrance wafts across the garden in full bloom. WC does not waft. I can't comment on disease since we don't get blackspot here.

Bishop's Castle

Winchester Cathedral

Winchester Cathedral if left unpruned

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Comments (18)

Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last year
I love them both. My climate is different than yours but they are both tough roses here.
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
last year
I know nothing about Bishop's Castle, but Mary Rose has significant blackspot issues here.
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
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dianela7analabama
last year
last modified: last year
Mary is gorgeous and extremely fragrant but a huge blackspotter. she has a great spring flush and the loses her foliage.

Mary in my old garden (my favorite scent)
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked dianela7analabama
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
last year
last modified: last year
Bishop's Castle here.
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
rosecanadian
last year
My goodness....these pictures are heavenly!! And I didn't think that Mary Rose was fragrant. Now I know. :)
oursteelers 8B PNW
last year
One sifference for me in habit is that BC is more drapey than Mary
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked oursteelers 8B PNW
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A)
Original Author
last year
Thanks, all! I really appreciate the bush shots.

Good to know re: Mary Rose having black spot issues. That seems like a dealbreaker.
sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
last year
I don't grow Mary but I do grow Bishop's Castle. I am in the N FL Panhandle with plenty of heat & humidity in the summer. BC is great here. I wasn't sure if it would be since I had admired it in many of the West Coast gardens and I figured maybe it liked it drier than my climate. It gets quite large here.
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A)
Original Author
last year
Wow, noseometer, your Bishop's Castle is gorgeous. It reminds me of Boscobel. Thanks for all of these details. I'm really leaning towards BC over Mary Rose.
judijunebugarizonazn8
last year
Caroline, I hope you can find Bishops Castle Rose. I’ve been on waitlists for probably two years now and still haven’t received any. Please let me know if you find a source.
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A)
Original Author
last year
Judi, you're probably already on this waitlist, but I have an email notification for a restock of Bishop's Castle on Heirloom Roses. On their website they say that they are currently growing this rose: https://heirloomroses.com/products/bishops-castle

Otherwise, I haven't found a source!
rosecanadian
last year
Noseometer - incredible blooming bushes!! Sooo many beautiful blooms!!
judijunebugarizonazn8
last year
Yes, Caroline. I’m on Heirloom’s waitlist for a long time now. It’s taking them a looong time to grow this one. ;)
noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)
4 months ago
Were you able to find a Bishop's Castle?
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A)
Original Author
4 months ago
I was not. It looks like Heirloom is officially no longer growing it, unfortunately.
noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)
4 months ago
last modified: 4 months ago
I've noticed that BC does not want to grow in a pot for me, but grows quickly once planted in the ground. That's what happened with my friend who lives in Southern Pines, NC. I wonder if that was the problem that Heirloom Roses was having.

Something I'm realizing with BC vs. Mary Rose, is that BC is a much bigger bush, with very thick basals (like 1-1/4" or thicker canes) vs. WC/MR whose basals are not even 1/2 inch (in my garden). I suspect that in NC, BC will get quite large (much larger than the description). WC spreads very slowly as the growth of new basals underground expands the plant, BC does not do this at all. WC wants to make new basals, whereas BC doesn't make new basals easily (it will make new basals from the stump when an old cane is pruned down). Thorns of BC are quite large compared to the small needle-like thorns of WC. BC is much more rambunctious in growth compared to the rather well-mannered Boscobel that you mentioned (although Boscobel's thorns are actually larger and backward curving), and Boscobel's blooms are more refined than BC.

I've tried to DM you Caroline, but couldn't figure out how to do it, if you still want one.

Bishop's Castle has very variable thorns:

Winchester Cathedral is consistent

Boscobel, just for comparison
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A) thanked noseometer...(7A, SZ10, Albuquerque)
Caroline (NC Piedmont 7B/8A)
Original Author
4 months ago
Wow, what a cane. Thanks for all of these details. I think that I DM'd you, nose. Let me know if you don't see anything.