Where in the front kitchen is the warming drawer going?

Hi @palimpsest - it will be under the range top. In the Island. Sketch is attached.

I'm not a designer but if you're thinking about resale, IMO you need an oven in the main kitchen. Surely a good kitchen designer could figure that out for you. Good luck with your new home -- looks like it will be fabulous!

Could you stack microwave and warming drawer to make room for the oven underneath? I am actually fine with a freestanding microwave.

Completely terrible design.

Well, Zuni, that’s a helpful comment.

Why not just buy a range for the primary kitchen that includes a cooktop, oven, and warming drawer. Examples:

• Fisher & Paykel OR36SCI6X1 36 Inch Freestanding Induction Range
• Café CHS900P2MS1 30" Smart Slide-In Induction and Convection Range
• Café C2S900P2MS1 30" Smart Slide-In, Front-Control, Dual-Fuel Range
• Signature Kitchen Suite UPSG3014ST 30-inch Gas Slide-in Oven Range

I agree with wdcruise I would consider possibly a range for simplicity--since you don't use the oven much.

I separated my oven and cooktop in a very small kitchen so we weren't standing over a hot oven when cooking on the range top but if I didn't use the oven a lot I would probably have a range.

wdcruise has a good solution.

Do not consider resale when calculating the solution to this issue. If you intend to live in this home for any substantial period of time, the next owners will be wondering why it ever became a trend to have two kitchens in the first place. They will rip both kitchens out and create a new one without a hallway in between.

It may be just how I cook, but I often sear a steak and put it into the oven to finish. Or do cutlets on the stove and transfer to the oven. Same with braising in a Dutch oven. I couldn’t do without an oven where my cook top is. If you’re looking at resale, that’s my opinion.

Thanks everyone. Have another idea. Thoughts on swapping the under counter microwave drawer for a Wolf Speed Oven? I’d still have the microwave features, but also have some oven features in the front kitchen. I would keep the warming oven under the range. This configuration might also allow us to shift from a double oven in the back kitchen to a single oven and save us some money overall. What am I missing - downsides to this? I’ll lose the drawer functionality with the microwave so will be bending over for any use of the appliance which is a bummer but this might give us better front kitchen functionality overall.

I think if there is going to be two kitchens you will need to have everything you need in both, so I am not sure that savings on one oven will be significant to the overall project.

In our new build, we will have a second kitchen.

I'm not hearing the single most important thing about this second kitchen: What is your motivation in building duplicate kitchens? How do you see the two kitchens working together?

Here's the thing: If you explain your motivation, you'll get better answers from us. I don't "get" whether you're doing big family dinners and want the front kitchen just for serving, or whether you can food /preserve all summer, or whether you run a small business creating food prep meals, or whatever. Or is it a religious thing? About a dozen scenerios pop into my mind.

Second big question, which flows from the first: What functions do you want each kitchen to provide? You say you use your cooktop heavily -- In addition to that, do you bake? Do you grill?

The back kitchen will have a ton of storage space and counter space for prep, baking, pantry items, and is also where our laundry will be.

So the back kitchen is kinda a utility room + some kitchen function.

Without having all your answers, I'd lean towards making the back kitchen larger, able to hold ALL the appliances, and keep ALL the mess back there -- make the front kitchen much smaller, essentially only a serving area.

My overall impression: This is going to create more work, more steps, and less efficiency. The knife or the pan you need will always be in the other kitchen.

In the back kitchen we have a sink, dishwasher, and double wall ovens. Also secondary fridge/freezer.

So you're looking at two entire kitchens -- duplicates of literally everything. Again, I'd like to hear the WHY.

across a hallway.

No, no, no -- huge red flag here. Two kitchens already means extra steps, and placing the secondary kitchen across the hall seems like a really bad idea. You're talking about doing most of the cooking in a back room, carrying it across the hall into the pretty kitchen, then moving it further to the dining area. Then all of the above in reverse for clean-up. More steps, more opportunity for spills.

Can you show the floorplan? These two areas really need to be adjacent.

On the other hand, you don't want to force yourself to walk through the pretty kitchen carrying laundry baskets (or bags of groceries).

We do warm up plates for serving, and at times are staggering the meal where a warming drawer could be helpful. Have never had one but always thought we would love one.

Are you talking about literally warming the plates? Or keeping plates of food warm?

I've never had a warming drawer either, but my first question is, What function can a warming drawer provide that a microwave can't?

A good rule is, NO one-trick ponies -- make every item in your kitchen do multiple duties.

I’m wondering if we are making a mistake by not having at least one full oven in the primary kitchen.

Without having a crystal ball into your thoughts, I'm inclined to think you'd only need ovens in the back kitchen. I mean, you don't really do a lot of "looking" into your oven.

Also thinking of resale down the road.

Okay, I feel confident of this answer: People might see a second kitchen as a cool addition, might see themselves using it -- but your potential buyer will not be willing to pay more for a house with two kitchens. As such, it's likely to cost you money in the long run.

While we plan to live in this house until we can’t anymore

So you're interested in aging-in-place. The extra steps created by this set-up may be even more of a problem as you reach your elderly years.

don’t want to have a kitchen that others view as an overly odd configuration.

This IS going to be seen as an odd configuration.

Why not just buy a range for the primary kitchen that includes a cooktop, oven, and warming drawer.

Agree. A range is less expensive and equally functional.

I separated my oven and cooktop in a very small kitchen so we weren't standing over a hot oven when cooking on the range top

Ovens are well insulated. When the door is closed, heat isn't pouring out of them.

It may be just how I cook, but I often sear a steak and put it into the oven to finish.

I do that with a couple recipes, but not the majority of my cooking. You're right that this type of recipe would be a negative if you had to carry the pot to another room to put it into the oven.

Other thoughts:

- I suggest you look at your floorplan and "mentally walk through" cooking one of your favorite meals. Where will you reach for the food? Where is the appropriate pan stored? Are the knives, spices and condiments within reach? When it's done, are the plates nearby? If you find you're walking between the two kitchens, you need to keep working on the layout.

- I hate the picture you've shared -- well, that's not true. The ceiling is lovely. But duplicate islands + a similar-shaped table looks large for no reaason and creates a maze /a Pac-Man kitchen. Never, never two islands, as they create more obstacles /subtract from the function of the room. I think the pretty kitchen needs to be downsized, as it won't be the source of much work.

- I see an outlet on one upper cabinet -- do think through outlets throughout the rooms. Where would you want to set crock pots, etc.? Don't skimp on outlets.

- Are those open shelves "between" the two kitchens for dishes, so they could serve either kitchen? If so, I'd like to see a dishwasher near them -- it'd be convenient to do the washing, then set them directly up on the shelves. But that means another sink in this area. I don't think cleaning-up has been well thought-through.

- This board is united on few things, but everyone agrees on a large, one-bowl sink being superior to the builder-basic double-bowl sink.

- How do you tend to serve food on a typical family-only evening? In my family I cook and people come to the stove to fill their plates. So, if I had this layout, people would have to go to the back kitchen to fill their plates, then walk through the pretty kitchen towards the table. Of course, it might cut down on second-helpings.

- How do you serve food when you have people over? Think through where you'd place food, where people would serve their drinks, where desserts would sit /wait.

- What's your pathway for bringing food into the house? Pathway for taking trash out? Recyling? Hopefully it's a short, straight pathway. If you don't plan these things, they don't go well.

Agree with all the above points. As to your specific question about a speed oven under the counter - I’ve seen this (with the thermador) in a showroom and it was sufficiently distinctions as to steer me away from it in my own kitchen. You basically have the kneel on the ground to see into it or reach in without burning yourself.

The double-oven Cafe C2S950P2MS1 dual-fuel range and Cafe CHS950P2MS1 induction range have oven "warm" mode. The spec sheet for the dual-fuel range state that warm mode is available in both ovens. The induction range spec sheet doesn't say but it's probably the same.

All drawer microwave ovens are manufactured by Sharp. The SMD2470ASY and SMD3070ASY have flip-down control panels which are exclusive to the brand.

"Ovens are well insulated. When the door is closed, heat isn't pouring out of them."

Okay, I guess I am hallucinating and the area immediately in front of my oven is 70 degrees just like the rest of the house. But I guess I wanted it out of the way for other reasons as well.

Thanks Theresa for your thoughtful comments.

The rendering I popped in aren’t doing the entirety of the layout justice and I have attached additional below. Don’t get too focused on the placeholder renderings for things like the sink - it’s just intended to say “whatever sink we pick goes here”. Not to say it’s going to look exactly like that sink. (But we do often defrost meats in our divided sink today and it’s handy.). Some of the renderings have a little age on them.

This is a “mountain modern rustic” home on 10 acres. We have a lot of windows/sliding doors/trifold doors to connect with the outside. An open kitchen works into that so while entertaining and cooking we are all enjoying the links to the outside.

We do a lot of entertaining and cooking. (Husband is an excellent chef.). The back kitchen has evolved - originally a large walk-in pantry and laundry area that would house appliances too (food processors, mixers, etc.) to keep them off the counter (I want a clean countertop). It also gives an additional area for baking and prep if you don’t want that mess out when guests arrive. I don’t want a bunch of dirty dishes sitting in the sink while our guests and we are finishing our evening. Dirty dishes will be taken into the back kitchen where there is also a large sink (it’s single so you will like that) and a second dishwasher to deal with the dishes at a later time. No room for a double wall oven in the front kitchen so planned to put that in the back kitchen - which I’ve seen done elsewhere but I’m now thinking of making that a single oven and switching the microwave in the front kitchen to a speed oven - which gives me both a microwave and oven in the front kitchen.

We plan on a fridge/freezer in the back kitchen because today we have an extra fridge/freezer in our basement for overflow frozen goods and drinks. Simply bringing those along with us and putting them in the back kitchen. We buy meats directly from small suppliers and need the additional fridge/freezer to store them.

There are not two islands. There is one island and a kitchen wall with minimal upper cabinets, fridge, dishwasher, sink and countertops that is open into the keeping room to some extent.

Serving will all be done from the front kitchen. Should have more than enuf counter space on island for putting out serving dishes. Have a separate wetbar for drinks to keep people out of the way in the front kitchen.

"An open kitchen works into that so while entertaining and cooking we are all enjoying the links to the outside...We do a lot of entertaining and cooking. (Husband is an excellent chef.)"

Then why is he going to be stuck in the back kitchen away from the guests?

In the plans you showed, I am seeing so many lower cabinets with doors ... that would be a major negative for a newer/custom kitchen.

Most people prefer to have as many drawers as possible and limit doors to corner cabinets, under sink cabinet and a tray & cookie sheet cabinet for vertical storage.

Most people also don't like those narrow pull-outs for spices, that are placed next to a range.

Oops - pressed send before finishing. Access for us will be through a mudroom hallway (from garage area) plus there is an exterior door to the back kitchen we could drive up to if there was ever a ton of groceries/other to deliver.

Can’t figure out how to add comments to this layout that are readable but maybe this helps. This is an older rendering so things have changed but perhaps better with the whole.

I think we maybe losing the thread a bit.

Hubby will be doing most of the cooking on the range top in the primary kitchen. Where we will all be, because everyone hangs out in the kitchen at a party. Even if we were using the back kitchen for baking for a meal, he wouldn’t be sitting there watching it cook - he would put it in the oven and come back out to where the action was.

And yes, underneath the counter will be drawers and not cabinets. This was an early and simple rendering to gain alignment on placement of things while we continue to refine.

The only reason I can think of to have a second kitchen like this one is if most of your entertaining is catered and you will have the caterer and servers working out of that space.

Another rendering that may help with the space.

I do not get the clean/dirty kitchen. You have your stove top on the island in the clean kitchen where stuff splatters and where people are going to be hanging out? Makes no sense to me. Most of cooking time is spent prepping. And who wants to be prepping and running back and forth between clean kitchen and dirty kitchen.

You state "An open kitchen works into that so while entertaining and cooking we are all enjoying the links to the outside." Except your hubby who will be in the dirty kitchen cooking. Put everything in the main kitchen and use the other space for an extra sink and dishwasher and storage of small appliances.

The range top is in the main kitchen.

Everything IS in the main kitchen (range top, fridge, sink, dishwasher, warming drawer, adjacent wetbar) with the exception of the double ovens. The back kitchen DOES have an extra sink, extra dishwasher, storage of small appliances, “overflow” fridge and freezer that currently sits in our basement, pantry items (canned goods, etc.), and laundry.

I’m going to look into dropping in the speed oven instead of the microwave drawer. Yes, it requires bending over, but so does the range suggestion many have given and that would be a 36” oven that takes a lot more time to heat up for any periodic use. The downside to the undercounter speed oven, I think, from the searching I have done is that some are saying it’s hard to read the buttons/panel under the counter. I’ll go take a look and see.

I get it from the comments that most think this is a dumb design. We like the openness and clean look of the main kitchen paired with a ton of storage in the back kitchen. It doesn’t seem different to me than a big pantry or a butler’s kitchen built to suit us. We have been doing a ton of thinking about how we practically live and what the flow for meals and entertaining will be and what activities would happen in each space. Which initiated the original question about oven placement. Clearly this storage/extra area isn’t for everyone, maybe I’m not explaining it well, or maybe it isn’t going to work like we think it will when all is said and done. We shall see.

"We don’t use ovens terribly often - most of our cooking is cooktop."

• If that's the case, won't the "pretty kitchen" with the cooktop become the dirty kitchen in short order?

The back kitchen will have "counter space for prep, baking"

• Do you expect your husband to prep food in the back kitchen and then drag it to the "pretty kitchen" to cook it? And to leave his guests to tend to food in the oven which is only in the back kitchen?

Seeing a sink and dishwasher in the "pretty kitchen", won't guests and family naturally drop off used glasses and dishware there, turning it into the dirty kitchen?

chispa: "The only reason I can think of to have a second kitchen like this one is if most of your entertaining is catered and you will have the caterer and servers working out of that space."

• Yup, but there's no cooktop planned for the back kitchen so they'd still have to cook in the "pretty kitchen"!

I will tell you right now your husband will not enjoy prepping back in that small room when he has a whole beautiful kitchen with windows and where all the guests are. Get the cooktop off the island. Only having an oven in the dirty kitchen makes no sense. Do you not check on things in the oven? I don't think this plan will work like you think. I see you have seating at the sink. Are people going to watch you or your husband wash dishes?

You have a main sink with counter seating behind it and an island cooktop with counter seating behind it ... both of those are not optimal arrangements.

I would prefer one single kitchen that was a bit larger and better laid out.

I also don't really want to do kitchen prep where someone might have been sorting out their dirty socks and underwear!

Seating is at the Island - there is usually a lot of engagement between my husband and guests while cooking - but I’m sure someone will be critical of that too. Dear god people, everything is happening in the pretty kitchen that normally happens in a kitchen - including prep - and I’ve just questioned the oven. We just have an option for additional prep, second sink, second dishwasher, oven in the back kitchen. Will evaluate a shift to either Wolf 36” DF range and scrap the warming drawer, or replace the microwave drawer with the speed oven. This is a depressing place to bat things around.

There is not seating at the sink. Realize why the mock ups might look that way but there isn’t.

Well we don't know everything, so we have to work through the question/problem to get a better idea of the information that you have in your head!

Your dirty kitchen idea is rarely done, but when it is, the dirty kitchen is connected directly to the main kitchen, to make it easier to work both spaces.

Here is a photo I found on Houzz that shows this. Everything is available in the main kitchen, but they added a dirty/wok kitchen with an extra range and other stuff, which has a door to close it off.

Rich Artisan · More Info

Rich Artisan · More Info

Another, main kitchen with work/wok kitchen in the same space, but separated with a door.

WEST 15TH, VANCOUVER · More Info

Thank you chispa for these pictures. Agree a more direct connection between the two work areas like what these pictures is nice.

A regular oven works under a counter because the opening is MUCH larger and you’re generally using a rack that’s much further down than a speed oven and you merely have to stand back or bend a little to see/reach into it. The geometry of the speed oven is much different. Please find one installed this way in a showroom before committing to it.

Warming drawers are much better for heating plates than a microwave. Microwaves work by vibrating water molecules. To heat dishes in a microwave, you need to wet them, and even then it doesn’t work terribly well. Some warming drawers, such as Miele, can also be used as a low temp oven (up to 185) for braises and such.

I think that only you know how you live, but this seems inefficient to have the only oven in the second kitchen. It also seems sub optimal to have prep and other stuff in a room that also appears to function as both a laundry / mud / and something for the dog(s)?

No matter how neat you are - there's ZERO way I'd want my clean dishes to be taken out of the dishwasher in the laundry / dog room.

I think you are asking that room to do too many things.

You can probably get away with a pantry / overflow fridge and freeer / laundry dog - but putting food prep and cleanup in there is a bridge too far. I'd consider finding a better place for the wet bar and using that area for a place for your oven / some prep and second dishwasher / sink - and be able to close it off.

I'd be okay with a door to the 1/2 bath in the foyer vs going through the current wet bar area.

If you are concerned with resale - then replace the rangetop with a DF range and also the microwave drawer with a speed oven. That way you have two ovens in your main space with a thrid oven in the back kitchen I am assuming this is a high end ”luxury” home and I think it would be an expector of two ovens in the main space for resale. I have a Miele wall/speed/CSO in my kitchen and use them all. I am not a Microwave user for reheating food except is small quantities so I splurged on a ”third” oven as a speed oven 9 years ago and have never looked back. Also from what I have heard on this forum the 36” ovens take a while to reach temp so a smaller speed oven would be advantageous for many if not most daily oven needs. All of my ovens have a warm up cookware feature that can be used for warming plates.

I can't tell where the oven is going exactly as the photo gets blurry when I blow it up, but the "second" kitchen is really too far away for the oven. Can't you put the double oven on the one wall in the kitchen or next to the fridge? It seems like there is plenty of room. I don't want to be prepping food in the main kitchen (because that's where the cooking is happening) then bring my tray all the way to the oven, then all the way back when it is 450 degrees. if it was just through a door that would be tolerable, but through a hallway with turns where people are entering from the mudroom, seems like a recipe for disaster. It seems like the second kitchen is really a glorified pantry and maybe baking space, not a true dirty kitchen. Also I would say given the distance bringing things to the dishwasher and back is going to be a headache - I would much rather have a larger kitchen and 2 dishwashers in the kitchen.

Thanks Theresa for your thoughtful comments.

Glad to try -- it's an intriguing concept.
But we do often defrost meats in our divided sink today and it’s handy.

I suggest you look into a roll-up drip-dryer (buy from Amazon for maybe $10) ... meat will defrost faster if air "moves all around it", and it'll still drip into the sink.

But what do I know? I defrost meat in the microwave (not turned on, just resting in the microwave) because I accidentally brought home a small horse thinking she was a puppy, and she has eaten more than a few things from my countertop. That dog's lucky I love her.

The back kitchen has evolved - originally a large walk-in pantry and laundry area

Honestly, I think it's evolved too far and it's not that I don't get the idea -- it's that the concept is "too much". The two kitchens contain so many repetitive items, which will be expensive to build and a lot to maintain /clean -- yet they're too far apart to really work, and I think you don't have a solid plan for what activities will happen in each kitchen:

What I think WILL WORK is something more like "Pantry Plus" or a Scullery:

- Get the large pantry closer to the kitchen -- I really like the picture Chispa posted -- a pantry just behind /connected to the main kitchen. If they're not literally connected, very close together, only a step apart, this isn't going to work. At all.

- You want the main kitchen to be a real cooking spot -- not just a serving area -- so include all major players in this area: fridge, sink, range. This is your best cooking area, most connected to the rest of the house, most pleasant for the cook. Keep the good knives, etc. in this area. You should be able to cook a complete meal in this area -- and most nights that's what you'll do; that is, most nights you'll not use the second kitchen area.

- Think of the secondary room as a Utility Room /a Pantry /a Scullery -- but one that is set up to house a smaller, secondary work area. Secondary being the key. I think you've been trying to make the two rooms too equal.

- First, plan ample storage in this Pantry Plus. Plenty of shelves for food. A set of tall, skinny shelves designed to house small appliances (which you can carry out into the main kitchen, if you wish /as appropriate -- moving a crock pot or a bread machine isn't much effort).

- Second, add one moderate cabinet run + a sink for this Pantry Plus. Maybe 6-7' total. This cabinet will be "enough" to serve as a get-away kitchen -- a place where you can chop up a bunch of veg, allow a couple pans of rolls to rise, set a crock pot of the way to do its thing, hide dessert, or stash dirty pans. Don't over-do this area, and don't feel the need to make it "as nice" as the main kitchen -- it's a back room, an overflow area, a hidden area. Don't try to duplicate everything here -- that's what's throwing off your plan.

- Summarizing that last point: This should be a SMALL SUPPLEMENT to the main kitchen /not a second version of it.

- Don't neglect a couple outlets near the cabinet in the Pantry Plus -- so you can opearte a crock pot or use your mixer here. Thinking about the mixer for the first time: I think I'd want the KitchenAid to live in the Pantry Plus.

- Consider a rolling cart that slides under a cabinet, which would allow you to move those dirty dishes you don't want sitting out in the main kitchen.

- I personally wouldn't do a second dishwasher. My theory is almost always, Do one item, Optimize the details, Avoid duplication -- but I don't think you'll agree. I'd say get the dishes moved to the Pantry Plus and let them sit until tomorrow, when you're free to run the single dishwasher as many times as you'd like.

No room for a double wall oven in the front kitchen .... microwave and oven in the front kitchen.

I'm not a big fan of double ovens either. I bake wedding cakes and have only one oven, so you'll not convince me it's a need. Duplicate anything pushes the size of the kitchen up, up, up -- and, in my experience, the size of the kitchen seems to have a negative correlation with the amount of cooking /quality of cooking that comes out of it. My mother, for example, has downsized to a 1-bedroom apartment (attached to my brother's house), and the food that comes out of her 10x10 kitchen is unrivaled.

How often do you use your microwave? I go days without touching mine, and I'd love if it could be moved to the pantry out of the way.

We plan on a fridge/freezer in the back kitchen because today we have an extra fridge/freezer in our basement for overflow frozen goods and drinks.

I'd say one good-sized refrigerator in the main kitchen -- if you try to divide things into two, you'll always hit the wrong one first. But yes to a freezer in the Pantry Plus /Scullery -- it's a storage item, and that's this rooms first function.

If you separate out drinks, one refrigerator in the main kitchen will be plenty -- even for parties. We bought our oldest child a LARGE dorm fridge, and once college was done (for all kids), we moved it into our pantry /laundry -- it sits on a small table, and we keep boxes of room-temp drinks underneath, making it quick to refill the small fridge. It's perfect for this purpose, and ours has a small freezer behind a separate door, where we keep ice cream.

We buy meats directly from small suppliers

Oh, yes, we used to buy 1/4 - 1/2 a cow from a co-op, and the difference in the quality! Wow. You know that when the grocery store says ground beef is 94%, they mean they've added 6% fat to the mix, right? Anyway, the co-op went out of business, and I miss them.

There are not two islands.

It certainly looks like two islands in both the image and the floorplan. I'm confused, but if that's actually a wall that isn't shown, it means your two kitchens are even further separated than we'd thought.

Seeing the floorplan, I have a laundry comment -- not related to the kitchen, but important: You want your washer /dryer on an exterior wall. It's cheaper to build and more fire-safe (because it's easier to keep the dryer vent cleaned). This is a pretty big deal.

Even if we were using the back kitchen for baking for a meal, he wouldn’t be sitting there watching it cook - he would put it in the oven and come back out to where the action was.

All the more reason it should be a Pantry Plus -- a pantry with some extra function /as opposed to a full second kitchen.

I do not get the clean/dirty kitchen.

Agree. People don't expect you to produce a lovely meal for everyone to enjoy -- and have a spotless kitchen.

I get it from the comments that most think this is a dumb design.

I understand and like the general concept -- an "away space" to store things /hide dirty tasks during entertaining. It's just that you've taken it too far /overly granderized it to the point it's no longer a good idea.

And I'll reiterate that it's essential that you think through WHERE -- when you have guests -- you'll set out food, WHERE you'll set out drinks, and WHERE you'll have dessert waiting in the wings.

Two topics:

W.r.t. the comment about outlets way above; obtain a copy of the NEC Handbook for NFPA 70. Read the requirements for kitchen outlets. Code conformance for islands may be particularly annoying.

In the computer image, the hood looks like it is 4 ft up. That's OK; commercial hoods have that separation, typically. However the expanse of the hood capture area must envelope the cooking plumes that expand as they rise. Also, drafts bias the plumes' centers as they rise and moving people cause turbulence that can also increase plume size as it rises. Under the best conditions the overlap of any point on the hood's edge relative to any pan edge needs to be not less than the tangent of 10 degrees (0.18) times the hood height. More is better. Without commercial hood reservoir volume, you may need significant flow rate and commensurate make-up air.