Thanks mxk. Yeah I had the winterberry holly already (Berry Heavy) and dug it back up to avoid damage; now I'm wondering if it's too dry and/or sunny. I do see them by the side of the road around here often, but it is usually as an understory shrub, so they get some shade and the soil is probably moister.

I had fothergilla on my list above - you think it wouldn't be too sunny or dry here then? I have some in other, shadier parts of my yard.

I actually had red twig dogwoods out there previously (immediately next to this newly exposed area) and they did not do well at all. I figured it was too dry and too sunny/hot. But lol I put some in a part-shade bog garden and they didn't do so well there either. Maybe they're just not for me. Unfortunately.

THANK YOU for the info on the Iceberg Alley sagebrush. This is exactly the kind of "real-life" experience I was hoping for on this thread! And the blue spruce suggestion is appreciated too - I didn't realize there were smaller varieties to choose from. And never even thought of roses for this spot.... hmmm..... Also, I will look into other serviceberries besides the Spring Glory I have above - maybe something else will work better than that.

Road splash really isn't too much of an issue. These will be planted a good 8 feet at least from the road, and there is a small slope going down to the road so they will be raised up from the road a bit.

laceyvail thank you for the spirea Ogon suggestion - I will look into it, as I do like spireas. I had ninebark on my list above - any thoughts on the Nugget cultivar? Although lol I can't remember why I chose this one in particular (there are so many nice ones! I have a Summer Wine Black and have been looking at some bright green ones as well for other areas). I think I chose the Nugget because it seemed to be taller than wider....?

Thanks!

:)

Dee

So, I'm going to a garden center on Friday. Does anyone have any further thoughts on my list of potential choices? Any real-life experience with any of them?

Thanks,

:)

Dee

If anyone is still looking at this post, I realized that the above photo may be confusing. The shrub border is going in along the side of the photo, along the street, not in front of the existing euonymus border. (I will be planting there, but not immediately).

Here is another photo looking straight at part of the area to be planted:

So the shrub border will be running left to right, along the street, at the back of the area in the photo. There's about 30 feet to fill. There is already an existing border of smaller stuff to the right of this area, planted just within the last year or two - diervilla, small hollies, small buddleia, callicarpa - nothing really over 5 feet tall at maturity.

btw I went to a garden center yesterday whose website listed many of the choices on my list, and they didn't have a single one. :( Some of the things I am considering are hard to find, which doesn't make this any easier!

Thanks for any continued input.

:)

Dee

Dee, I have the same problem, researching and finding plants online that sound great, then you can’t find them anywhere. That became so frustrating, I stopped going about it that way. When are you planning to plant this area? Before winter, or in the spring? Either way, why not a weekend hitting a few of favorite nurseries? Fall sales are coming. If you do it this way, you can see what is available. You can see it in person. You can ask for help. Go with a list of things you like to start with then see what they have. You can put shrubs together at the nursery and see what they look like together. You might see a mature version of it. You could make it painless and decide all in one weekend! LoL Yes, you will get more selection in the spring, but you might find something you can use at a discount to get you started. If not, at least you can see them all together.

I love evergreen hollies, like the Blue Hollies. I have Blue Princess and Prince. The Prince gets very large, it’s up to my gutters on the front of my cape. I prune it often, which I don't mind, I do a lot of pruning. The Princess, however, is no bigger than 6ft high and I never prune that. There may be a pair of hollies that stay small. I also have a variegated holly….Ilex meserveae ‘Honey Maid’ I am enjoying that gets to be 6ft and hasn’t needed pruning yet.

'Honey Maid' Holly

Ilex crenata ’Sky Pencil’. Pruning it couldn’t be easier and infrequent. It makes a very vertical accent piece and takes both sun and even half shade. Moderate growth rate, never pay attention to it.

YouTube videos for pruning just about any shrub.

Arborvitaes grow well without attention and I never have to prune those. If you buy them small enough - it takes a long time for them to get large, at least mine did. I have ‘Emerald Green’ since 2009 and it’s only about 9ft tall now, growing in a dry area. On the other hand I have a Western Arborvitae that quickly became a tree - wide and tall - and is still growing. A great screen and never needs pruning, but takes a lot of space. I don’t know if they have any dwarf varieties that would fit your space.

What about Rhododendrons? Evergreen and some are very handsome. Once they are established, if you give them the space they need, they are pretty carefree and don’t need pruning. Azaleas as well. And they come in all sizes.

Smoke bushes? The Dark ones are interesting and I don’t think they need much care.

If it’s sunny - I do love my Hibiscus ‘Berry Awesome’ It does not need pruning, it does not outgrow it’s space. I never fertilize it and it has average water needs and the blooms in July/Aug are really eye catching. I’ve had other perennial Hibiscus and there was some problem with each of them, but this one is a keeper. You cut it back to the ground each spring.

Ninebarks? I have ’Seward’s Wine’ and it’s stayed the same size for the past few years. I can measure it for you tomorrow. I think it’s a medium size shrub. For me it’s been carefree. I have pruned it a little just to clean it up. I just walked past it this week and I did a double take, it looked so good. Denser and darker than usual and I remembered I fertilized it in the spring for the first time ever, with one of the Espoma organic fertilizers. I have wondered if I would have liked ‘Diablo’ better because I think it is darker without the red tones and the leaves look a little larger. But I see there are even more varieties now. And….it is a native. I saw this photo and think I should get it....Dart's Gold

Pieris are nice. I love those, but they haven’t done well for me here. They stay a nice size. Viburnum carlesii has that spicy fragrance that I love. They stay a nice size.

Weigelias - they have a lot of varieties but I don’t have one at the moment, maybe someone else can share their experience.That’s all I got. [g]

Taxus - I love mine but I don’t have deer.

I have ‘Brilliantisima red chokeberry and I love the color of the foliage and berries in the Fall, but…it is a very airy shrub, not dense at all and it leans to the sun if there is too much shade. So it might do better in full sun. The birds do eat the berries.

The Sandcherry you are looking at, I assume is for the foliage color and you might be better served by the dark Ninebarks.

Viburnum carlesii - Spicy fragrance is my favorite fragrance in spring and it’s in your 6ft size range.

Your question on the Ninebark in dry conditions. I’ve been surprised at how well it has done this year when we have not been able to water more than 2x in the past 2 months and other things in the yard look it but it doesn’t.

I don’t know about which Rhododendrons might do well in full sun. Try this article...

https://garvillo.com/rhododendron-full-sun/

I just thought of something...the NEWFS in MA. They sell native plants. I haven't bought from them in awhile, but when I did, they offer good healthy stock in pretty good sizes for very reasonable prices. Maybe you have something like that in CT?

PM2, thank you so much. I always, always, always appreciate the time and effort and thought you put into your answers. It's very generous and thoughtful of you!

Yes, the purpleleaf sand cherry was for foliage. Can I ask why you prefer the ninebark?

Funny, when I was at a garden center the other day I impulse-bought a Ginger Wine that was on sale. I just planted a Summer Wine Black last year so I don't really need the Ginger Wine but couldn't resist it - a nice, 3-foot tall full shrub for about 40 bucks (40% of!). I have been wavering on whether to put it in this border. It's mature growth is stated as 5-8 x 5-8. LOL the way I think, I'm worried it will be too short but too wide! That it will end up being 5 feet tall and 8 feet wide! I'm sure that won't happen of course but these are the thoughts that go through my mind and make me a hesitant gardener!

Wavering on the taxus too - mine were never ever touched by deer in almost 30 years, but those were by the house, and this area is farther away and near an established deer path....

Thanks for your thoughts on the other shrubs too, especially the chokeberry. And I will definitely look at the rhodie article. There are other rhodies on my street that are planted along the road, but I have to look again and see if they are shaded, or perhaps on lower ground (moister soil, etc). There's one at the end of the street that is quite spectacular - almost but not quite as stunning as your neighbor's big one - but I do think that might be under an oak and gets a bit of shade.

Will also check into a native plant society here in CT. You did remind me though that there is a reputable native plant nursery here. Sad that there are so few true nurseries left...

:)

Dee

Edited to add - a big thanks on the Honey Maid. I had been looking at a variegated holly - Santa's Delight - but the Honey Maid is perhaps more readily available. As soon as I read it in your post I thought of course! Why didn't I think of that! I had never heard of Santa's Delight. Which doesn't really mean anything because what do I know about hollies, lol, but I just think if one has a more recognizable name it's probably because I've seen it around more than other cultivars!

Dee, you’re one of the few people I always feels is not put off by the length of my posts. You understand the tendency to see so many details…lol. Happy if something helps.

The Sandcherry - no, I haven’t grown one, so I can’t compare. I just wouldn’t want you to miss out on a Ninebark if you only had space for 1 dark leaved shrub. Ginger Wine looks nice and it fits your size requirements. Great price too…and that is getting more and more important.

That smoke bush you are looking at looks nice.

I’m not sure what the concern is about height and width? Is it that you want to fit as many shrubs as you can? Or is the height about blocking sun into the area between this shrub border and your house, so you won’t be able to grow more full sun perennials or veggies? Also, if a shrub ends up a little wider than you want it, it is really easy - simple - to keep it in bounds with just minimal pruning, unless it suckers.

Since this area is near a deer path and a distance from the house, I would think all your selections have to keep it in mind. Do you have any neighbors that you could ask, who do have plantings near the deer path, how much damage they get and which plants they are visiting?

By the way, my neighbor’s Rhodie….it’s in the front foundation of their house and that faces west, but there is a very large mature Maple between the Rhodie and the west sun. So it has the house behind it all morning and then a shortened time slot of sun in the afternoon. So it really is doing amazing in what amounts to a lot of shade.

Are you layering? Putting some shrubs in front of others in back of them? So would some plants have the shade created by shrubs behind them? Maybe some of the evergreen smaller arborvitae you are thinking of in the back closest to the street and the others in front of that closer to your house?

Oh...one last thing....the Viburnum carlesii - to me it's not a show stopper at all. the shrub itself and the small size of the blooms are not a wow, but I would grow it just for the fragrance. I wouldn't give it center stage. I don't even remember if it has fall color.

PM2, yes you and are are similar in our postings lol - I too often feel like I am too wordy! But there's so much information to give lol, and so much detail to tell!

The height and width of this border are a concern because of the overhead wires and the sightlines coming out of my driveway. I don't want to plant something that will just grow into the wires and once again need to be removed. And I am in a blind curve. I have INCHED out of my driveway only to see oncoming traffic speeding towards me 60 feet away - even garbage trucks and UPS trucks! The blocking of vision is added to by a telephone pole, my neighbor's wall, and my neighbor's euonymus shrub (which I am always hacking back so I can see a bit better), and so I need to keep these shrubs well back from the road for safety.

I think I will put the rhodie I purchased for this area (before the trees were cut down) in another spot. The afternoon sun here is hot so I will give it a bit of shade and choose something else for the border.

I'm torn about the deer. They do walk through this area but very rarely nibble on anything (odd but thankfully true!) Really. In almost 30 years they've eaten things twice - one year some hostas; another year, some daylily buds. Most of the damage they do to my beds is just by the act of walking - lots of deep embedded footprints, especially in the early spring soil, so some newly emerging plants have gotten squished. And later in the year I find things kind of leaning or knocked over. But that being said, I don't want to plant something here that might be offering them a tasty snack on a silver platter lol.

I think I will take rouge's advice (I think it was rouge, on another thread) and wait till spring to plant. For one thing, I'm having trouble deciding exactly what to do here. For another, I'm still back in August somewhere and am daily surprised at the leaves coming down, the angle of the sun, the earliness of dusk - lol I keep thinking wow, it's early for all this. Then I realize it's mid-October and I have limited time to do stuff!

:)

Dee

Dee, I get it now, that you’re trying to keep the width away from the end of the driveway so you can see what’s coming along the road. And you have the overhead wires to consider with the height. You have more space than 6ft tall to still be under the wire though, right?

Okay, I agree, that waiting until the spring may work out better for you. It really is pretty late to come up with a plan and a buying list. And you don’t want to rush yourself. Plus what is better over the winter, than to have a garden project to mull over?

Still, you did say you’ve been visiting the nurseries to see what’s on sale. If there are more you could visit you might see something with a great price tag that you could work into your plan over the winter. Otherwise, you will have the best selection in the spring at the nurseries and that will make it much easier.

PM2, I might wait until next fall to plant. There is cooler air but still warm soil so less plant stress, and at least in NH and in WI many plants go on sale. For this summer, put down a layer of cardboard and a layer of bark mulch which will discourage many unwanted seedlings, and you will easily see any new sprouts to be removed.

Also, in planning my shrub beds, I specifically didn’t choose specific cultivars, but made list of species and qualities I wanted which typically included size range, at least two seasons of interest, such as leaf color and texture, flowers, berries, fall color, winter interest (twig color, berries, dried flowers, evergreen, etc.) and sizes. You also might want to consider value to birds and insects as well. I took my tablet and my Dirr Woody plants book to look up plants I found in local nurseries. I found it too difficult to find specific cultivars locally. I did buy a few of my faster-growing shrubs as tiny mail order starts such as the ninebarks and the Ogon spirea. I have really liked both these shrubs.

IME blue spruce, which are by nature dry land plants, don’t do well in eastern humidity over time, especially if there are other plants close by. The moisture encourages fungal diseases, and the Fat Alberts I planted in 2009 or 2010 are both too tall and losing needles in the lower parts. I see the same thing as I walk or drive around here in WI as well.

Similarly, IME purple leafed sand cherries tend to be prone to every disease that cherries can get, both branch fungal diseases like black knot, and fungal leaf diseases that often leave them looking fairly sparse before the end of the season. IME either the ninebark or the smoke bush would be a better choice for dark leaves.

Of your other choices, I can’t help with hollies since I am too cold except for winterberries, but I love winterberries. Be sure you get a compatible male to have berries; for Berry Heavy, Mr. Poppins is one suggestion. The male can be somewhere else in the yard - maybe within 50’ or so.

My arborvitaes and especially Taxus/yew get heavy deer munching, both in NH and WI, so I would only plant where there is some protection. YMMV.

IME Viburnums all have at least some fall color and many are spectacular. I love the wafting scent of Koean spice Viburnums, and many of the other Viburnums also have berries if you have two different varieties of the same species - ie two ’Blue Muffins’ won’t give you berries. One caution is to read up on resistance to an imported bug, the Viburnum beetle. Many Viburnums are resistant like the Korean spice, but I dug up and burned my V. dentatum Blue Muffin because the leaves always were too chewed to be nice.

I love Brilliantisima red chokeberry for flowers, fruit and fall color

Fothergilla has lovely scented flowers and amazing fall colors, and my Mt. Airy have not exceded 4’ in many years. But different cultivars and species have different sizes, so you will need to see what is available. I plant clematis near mine so the clematis can scramble into the fothergilla for summer flowers.

I also really appreciate serviceberries for flowers, fruit, and fall color.

I might consider one of the 8’ panicled hydrngeas like Quickfire for winter interest (those dried flower heads help add screening) and a really long bloom season. Very drought tolerant.

Barb

Lol, so I open the shrubs forum, see the title of this post, and get all excited because I thought Ooh! I might get some good info here! And then I see it's MY post haha!

Babs it is SO good to hear from you! I hope you are doing well in your new location. Please let us all know how you are doing and all about your new gardening exploits. And thank you for responding, as I always appreciate your input.

I had some tree work done (some light pruning on about 15 oaks, not the hatchet job, tear down project the electric company performed) and I was able to get a load of about 8 cubic yards of woodchips. They are out covered in snow in 9 degree weather lol, but I plan on putting down cardboard and spreading them out at my earliest opportunity. I may just wait till fall to plant, and even if I don't really plan on it, that might be how it works out anyway lol

I was out driving a few months ago and drove by something I had completely forgotten about. In the town over was a nursery that was reputable, and actually some of you may have heard of it, since I believe they did mail order as well - Twombley's, They closed a few years back, and I had forgotten that another nursery moved in. I thought it was a wholesale place, but I saw an ad for them and it looks like they do retail as well. Unfortunately they don't have much of a website but perhaps in spring I will visit and see what they have. I don't mind paying a bit more for larger plants, and would actually rather have the larger ones here since I'm going for privacy. Normally I do mostly mail-order but since I want quicker results I will try doing some in-person shopping.

Thank you again Babs - and everyone! - for your input. Much apppreciated!

:)

Dee

jumping in here late... I used to have an area like that -- Are you describing the corner between the driveway and the road? Mine was a similar rural/suburban vibe. This is the before.

I attempted to provide pops of seasonal color for the cars driving by and joggers and walkers. Big patch of daffodils in the spring. black eyed susans late summer

That's just a little show and tell on the area itself. But that was a whole lot more work than shrubs. I hear you!!! For your conditions, sun and shrubs, I second Holly Maid. I had that in another area (with part-shade):

Notice Russian Cypress in the foreground. Readily available, stays low, winter interest (but not to my taste - weird color), grows fast

Viburnum Odandago was another fave of mine:

Viburnum Mariessa but it grows like a beast... good if you need to cover some real estate. Maybe there are dwarf doublefiles around ???

And back to the point about pops of color to impress drive-bys a top performing winterberry would be awesome - or a row or cluster of them.

This azalea color pop was more for me than the public... along the driveway side. Cornell Pink is a Korean deciduous azalea known for its very early bloom. I bought one for my new place too and it is the first thing blooming and gets a lot of neighborhood buzz.

For an evergreen slow growing tree for sun, what about a Japanese Umbrella Pine?

Hope this gives you more ideas... this was fun diversion/distraction for me. Now I have to remember what I came here looking for ... LOL!

Hi Wendy! Good to see a post from you. Are you back in New England?

Love the plants you used. I'm getting ready to do an area that I need a screen and I want to put in a Hedgerow effect, that will give birds nesting spots and berries and bring in pollinators, have fragrance and seasonal bloom, so a few of your choices might work for me too.

You have that Honey Maid Holly and it looks good. I've been surprised, that I was not so sure it was a good grower because where I planted it first, it got smaller and less vigorous, but I moved it and last year it put on a lot of growth. And I can't figure it out because it is not really getting more sun. I'm very happy with mine.

That Cornell Pink Azalea is very pretty! And who doesn't love a Viburnum maresii. Also like the Umbrella Pine. You did a great job.

Hi pm. Thanks for the compliments. Never left New England. Just in and out of gardenweb -- mostly out these days.

Revisiting this thread for a minor update. And sorry, Wendy, I never saw your response, so thank you for all that info. Believe it or not I'm still not fully committed to any shrub yet. Hoping to plant in the next couple of weeks though so I do need to finally make a decision!

I finally gave up on my husband and son-in-law helping me and hired someone to dig up some tree stumps and move some rocks. Before he came I went out and removed lots of weeds and put down some cardboard and wood chips.

After almost a year of not doing much, things are slowly taking shape. Emphasis on slowly lol. Here is the area today

LOL I know you're saying "I don't see a difference"!! It's that big rock. It hides a lot lol.

There was a whole cedar tree trunk in there, which someone came and took when I posted it on craigslist. There were also about 5 or 6 small (6-10 inch diameter) sassafras tree stumps, the cedar stump, and a bigger 16-inch oak stump, which were removed. I also asked the guy to remove three big rocks which I couldn't get out and turned out to be even bigger than I thought (you can see two of them next to the big rock)

Some thoughts: One, I should have waited to spread about half of the woodchips I spread, since the little excavator just obliterated or mixed them in or something - they're just gone lol.

Second, I am really surprised at how destructive this little job was. I thought they would just come in and remove the stumps and rocks and things would look pretty much the same. The work area is now not only cleared of all surface, including the wood chips lol, but it is literally inches lower than the area they didn't touch!

I happened to leave a pile of vines right where you can see this best, but the circled area shows (rather poorly lol) how much lower the work area now is. Please pay no attention to my poor veggie garden in the back. I've been saying for years I have to re-do my cinder block beds, and now that this area is suddenly visible I guess that's good motivation!

Third observation: I had a small holly planted along the boundary with my neighbor. It got squashed but more puzzling is that I put a little piece of wire fencing there so the guys would see it, and that whole piece of fencing is just gone lol. I'm envisioning one of the guys stepping on it or getting it tangled in his equipment and him throwing it away in irritation lol.

Last observation: I live on top of a quarry. EVERY SINGLE TIME I put my shovel in the ground, or even just try to rake, I hit a rock. I'm not sure what's more aggravating - the tiny ones that I have to keep picking up, or the ones that turn out to be boulders and I can't get them out.
The guy actually made a nice little "wall" with the rocks he moved (many more than the three I asked him to!) but sadly, it's about one lousy foot too close to the road, so I will have to move it somehow (always thinking of that sight line!). I may have to hire him back!

Yesterday I had three cubic yards of topsoil delivered. It supposedly is almost a full cubic yard more than I need, according to an online calculator, but it looks like an awfully small pile lol. Will be out shoveling and spreading that today.

I think - think, because I haven't committed yet lol - I think I will be planting three Arrow Point hollies and two Leprechaun arborvitaes along the street. I think that will fill the space. Not too thrilled with the idea that they are all the same shape, but I think the foliage contrast will be nice. I might be taking a chance with deer damage, but keeping my fingers crossed based on the amount of deer damage in the past 30 years (minimal so far!). Still toying with a deciduous holly or viburnum for some winter color, but may just plant that inside the row of evergreens

I dread planting here. I just keep thinking of all those rocks....

The other temptation - I keep looking at this blank slate - almost full sun too!! - and thinking what a lovely garden could go in here. But I am desperately trying to keep to my plan of converting to mostly shrubs, due to ease of maintenance. I know you can have a lovely garden of shrubs, but in my mind's eye I'm seeing cottage gardens and English gardens and just all the things I couldn't grow well because of my shady yard.

So I just keep reminding myself that one reason this area is still not finished is because I detest working in the sun lol, and there's just no respite from it here. Also try to keep reminding myself of my lack of time and my advancing age.

If you are still reading, lol, thanks for hanging in there and sharing my little garden journey. I am STILL open to suggestions so feel free to offer them!

:)

Dee

Dee, thanks for updating the thread. I love updates to see how things are going. You’ve made some progress getting the tree stumps out was a first necessary step and one that is an expense. I didn’t realize how much rock you have, on top of a quarry certainly explains it. [g] So you had challenges as a gardener right from the start. So you should go easy on yourself.

If the wood chips are mixed in, they will still condition the soil. Were you hoping to use them as a mulch or let them break down for soil conditioning? You could always try to get one of those free chip drops when you are ready for mulch.

I can imagine that taking out the stumps and rocks did displace some soil and gave you a sink hole. Or it might have been the weight of the machine too. No matter, you have what you ended up with. It does look like you could either fill that depression in like a lasagna bed before winter so it will be nice soil by spring, or do some grading with a metal rake. You could use some of that extra top soil to fill in any remaining dips.

Sounds like the guys came when you were not home?

Since you haven’t made decisions yet, I’d just like to agree with you that maybe a cottage garden is an idea you could eliminate. I do understand having to make choices that make sense rather than doing exactly what you want to do. Lol Especially if you realized that you hate working in the sun.

You can layer the planting though. For bird habitat they always suggest that. You’d have any trees at the back then shorter shrubs and then a woodland edge using lots of very low maintenance plants. Seasonal too for interest - asters - hellebores & bulbs for spring - have some variegation in foliage - some dramatic colorful bloomer for spring, something with fragrance, fall color. Give yourself plants that you really can get excited about in every season and you won't miss a cottage garden. Or the work!

If you dread planting, try to buy the smallest size you can, or find some help if you want to have something more mature. Or see how much the nursery that you buy your shrubs at charges to plant for you. Maybe they would give you a deal for multiple plants purchased?

So you can make a really interesting garden that is also not a lot of work when you get finished with it. And you have the added benefit of a sunny site that gives you a much broader range of choices.

The one thing I would question is if you really want to use something that deer are going to eat on you? Is there another option that would suit you? If you have deer and they have already eaten some of your plants in the past, not much good hoping they won’t do the same thing. [g]

I don't know if any of that helps, but just my thoughts. You are further along with your project than I am. I did get the dead trees that were the first job to do, taken care of. And we pulled out half of the overgrowth, but still a lot more work to do and not a lot of time to do it. It’s going to drag on and probably still have to do most of it in the spring. *sigh*

Hi PM2! Yes, I've always had rock issues lol. My vegetable gardens are raised beds because that area (my only sunny spot when I first moved here) is solid rock. I have swaths in my yard where there is no grass, just an expanse of rock to walk on. My house is on solid rock - the far corner of the basement is solid rock, where they must have given up blasting and said the heck with it, and put the cinderblock foundation around this section of rock lol.

My son-in-law thinks there might have been a stone wall along the street, which, over the years, got covered over. He thinks I am now digging up that stone wall. I suppose it's possible. The part of town I live in was (and still is to a small extent) known as the farming area, as opposed to downtown which was heavily industrial. Everyone seems to have a stone wall except me, so maybe I actually do but it's just covered up by time lol. I am going to build a very small stone "wall" along the street, but more like just a row of large rocks - I think kind of like you might have (or have had at one time) in your garden. I have to be so very conscious of the sight lines so it needs to be far back and low.

I do think I will take a chance with the shrubs and the deer. For one thing, deer damage has been very minimal, despite there being a deer path. Only twice in 30 years have they eaten anything. Of course, if they eat one of these it will be much worse than eating a perennial in the garden bed... But I am also finding it difficult to find things that fit this area that are deer resistant. And you know we've had the conversation about how you finally find something that will work, and then cannot physically find it for sale anywhere!

I am considering putting in a viburnum instead of one of the Arrow Point hollies. I actually wish I had even just another 8 feet or so to work with. I want to repeat shrubs for continuity and cohesiveness, but I don't want "this one, that one, this one, that one" kind of repeat. But the limited areas is kind of forcing my hand on this. So I may stick a viburnum or deciduous holly in the middle. We'll see....

You should see what I've envisioned in this area lol. Even had a vision of a partially paved over (with paving stones) area with roses, a bench and perhaps even a fountain. It looked gorgeous in my mind's eye, but in reality, no one would sit there lol. We like the shade! We already have a patio that is too freaking hot because it's mostly in sun, and we don't use it on really hot days (which we are getting more of!). So I am going to stick to my usual preference - more naturalistic, unmanicured, native plantings with birds and wildlife in mind - and also go along with my new mandate of easier maintenance.

Getting ready to go back out to the trenches lol, and kind of dreading it. Worked out there yesterday and my goodness, this soil is freakishly heavy lol. I could only fill the wheelbarrow half full because I couldn't budge it if I filled it more! Then I had to shovel some out before I could just dump the wheelbarrow. THEN I discovered I was getting a flat tire (I could build an outdoor shed with the tires I've lost on my wheelbarrows lol) so I had to only fill it a quarter way - which did make it easier to dump. But it was a long, slow, hot process. And then it rained last night. I didn't expect that and so I left the soil uncovered and now it will be even heavier. Who needs a gym membership when you're shoveling soil and digging up rocks?

:)

Dee

I am in a nearby area where I often say we grow rocks. If a shovel goes into the ground in an uncultivated area, I invariably hear the sound ”ching” which is the shovel hitting a stone or solid granite ledge.

I like your idea of a low dry-stack stone wall set back from the curb with naturalistic bird/pollinator-friendly plantings. In my curb area, I studded rocks throughout and planted some shorter low-maintenance bulbs, spirea and short perennials (sage, calamint, astilbe) for the first 10 feet with a backdrop of double-file viburnum. The viburnum are low-maintenance (if not too close to the curb), not bothered by deer and home/food to many birds. They will also give you good screening from your neighbor across the street (even in winter due to dense branching structure).

Good luck and please post updated photos when complete! Don’t be afraid to hire muscle for the hard lifting as it will make the process easier!

Lol Design Fan, I see you are a fellow rock farmer!

I've been toying with the idea of having something like creeping phlox spilling over the rocks, but I will have to see how the sight lines work out. Plus I haven't had much luck in the past with creeping phlox, or even my beloved sedum for that matter, although this spot should be ideal for sedum. But that's down the road. First order of business is to get some privacy shrubs planted!

PM2 I forgot to answer your question about the wood chips. We had some tree work done over the winter and they left a pile of wood chips for me. My main goal in spreading them in this area was just to keep it from being covered in weeds, since I knew it would be awhile till I got to it. That darn sassafras is poking up through the cardboard and the chips! I may use some of the chips to mulch the new shrubs. My concern with them having been mixed in is that I thought they could deplete nitrogen. I've been trying to rake them out of the soil but it's not really working lol. As one would expect it wouldn't! But I tried anyway!

:)

Dee

Like @prairiemoon2 z6b MA I too enjoy seeing updates. It is exciting to have a blank slate to work with. When you come up for air hopefully you will have time to let us know what you have decided.

Dee, ‘rock farmer’ is a pretty good description!

I have not had luck with creeping phlox or sedum. But the Proven Winners weigela series has some shorter spreaders that do a nice job of spilling over rocks. Low maintenance, burgundy leaf (there are other leaf colors too), no deer browsing, does well in sun, some varieties rebloom.

The leaf color stands out in my yard against the rock color and in front of taller green bushes/evergreens. I used ’spilled wine’ and ’midnight wine’ but there are others that are taller and shorter.

Dee, re deer damage from arborvitae... if you build it, they will come - LOL. However, I have had great success with T. Green Giant. It is my favorite arborvitae. Actually, it's the only arborvitae I like. The foliage is fluffier and the growth habit wider and not sculptural. The shape is pyramidal, not cylindrical. The color is great. And deer do not touch it. And because it grows so quickly and wide, you don't need as many (if you are doing a screen). I think it is from Western Thuga rather than Eastern which has something to do with the anti-deer properties..

I hear you re one-of-this and one-of-that chaos. The plant lover part of us takes over and wants to grow so many species. It takes so much restraint to do a large cluster or row of something. I am not good at it myself but I will easily preach that you should attempt it! When you are driving around and see well put together designs, you may see they use the same plant in large masses. That is how you achieve the visual impact. Does it mimic Mother Nature? Probably not. Is it pleasing to the eye. Some are; some aren't. Obviously it is hard to assess from your pictures how the whole area will work but I'm sure you will figure it out. Can we see a picture from a distance that shows the entire space and surrounding landscape? I can't even tell how big an area it is. In design school they taught that the surrounding landscape is where you get your cues for plant/hardscape choices.

I too thought about nitrogen depletion when you mentioned the wood chips. I once had a stump ground and learned to put blood meal on the base and the chips to speed up decomposition. I forget if I did or what happened but right now that comment makes me think it might attract other nasty things... voles?

Dee - I have sometimes really enjoyed creeping phlox. It spread, it bloomed and was a great ground cover, but in the years I have had drought, it has not performed well and is not persisting as it once did. I don’t know if it is the drought or something else…winters? I am replacing an area of creeping phlox with Cranesbill, which have done really better than expected in drought. And they have a nice bloom season and they color up in the fall and they spread. And after bloom if the foliage starts getting ratty looking, you can shear them right back to the ground and they will produce a nice new crop of fresh foliage without being bothered by it. Oh, best of all, rabbits don't like the smell. And I like the Weigela idea, that DFan suggested. Those new dwarf varieties look cute and anytime I’ve had a Weigela it’s been a good garden plant. I might try that myself.

Definitely get the idea of the wood chips depleting nitrogen, I forgot about that. Wow, the sassafras is coming up through cardboard and chips? Yikes.

When I was suggesting adding seasonal interest, I wasn’t necessarily thinking of one of each. I wouldn’t like that arrangement either, but you could have multiples of one or two shrubs and have one single blooming specimen plant too. And the multiples could be something fragrant. And they all could have fall foliage. That’s the idea I was trying to present. I understand that it isn’t an easy search…lol.

Wendy, You’re still popping in once in awhile…lol. Always nice to see you. :-) I also have the Green Giant and It has worked out well for me too. For all the reasons you mentioned. I wouldn’t know about the deer, which I don’t get, but rabbits haven’t eaten it either. It’ funny though I also have a ‘western’ arborvitae that doesn’t look anything like the Green Giant.

... if you build it, they will come...

Lol, yes, that's what I'm afraid of!

Green Giants are waaaayyyy too big for what I need. The power lines are about 15 feet above the ground, so I have to watch the height or I'll just be in the same boat as last time, with the electric company wanting to cut everything down. Plus, my daughter's next door neighbor has these (or something very similar) surrounding all four sides of their yard. Literally the only opening is their driveway. I call it the Green Fortress lol. I'm sure the Green Giants have their place and purpose - there are several house in the area that have used them to great effect, but yeah, too big for this little space.

PM2, yes, I understood what you were suggesting. Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise. That was just me saying how I am having some issues with this space. It's only about 30-32 feet long, so big enough for about 5 6'-diameter shrubs. It IS probably small enough just to do a row of the same thing, but since the electric company has come through, EVERYBODY has put in rows of the same thing lol. Mostly arborvitaes. I get it, they're relatively cheap, available, and for the most part people seem to have larger specimens that grow quickly. I wish I had bought stock in arborvitaes before the electric company came through lol.

I just want something more than that, but the space is small so if I try to mix it up, I risk having that "one of those, one of these" mishmash. Even using two different things is like that - I keep describing it in my head as "sing-songy" - which doesn't quite fit but gives one the idea of "this one, that one, this one, that one". So I'm thinking of using two hollies, two arborvitaes, and then centering it with something different - a deciduous berrying holly, a viburnum, an aronia - something colorful to offset all the evergreen-ness.

PM2, you really don't have deer? That's amazing. I just assumed everyone in New England had deer lol! Lucky you!

:)

Dee

Dee, I really don't have deer. There are some on the other edge of the neighborhood near a wooded section next to a small park, but I never see them over here. Believe me the rabbits really are challenging too!

I only have two arborvitae and they are different effects all together. The green giant isn't all that large....which made me question ....do I have a GG? I did have two small ones in pots, so I confused them with the one I have. I looked it up in my spreadsheet and it is Emerald Green. I've had it since 2008 and it's not that large, I'll get a photo.

Yes, I understand. It's hard when you have to figure out fitting things in. I think you are aiming for the best thing, just keep plugging away Dee, you'll get there...lol.

So I got most of my topsoil spread out. I have some left over and I may just throw it here anyway but for now I'm tired of shoveling lol. I think it looks pretty good. There is a natural slope here so I wasn't trying to get the whole are up to the same level, but just to level out the slope. It's kind of hard to see any difference if you are not standing there but I am pleased so far. Just tired lol.

Next is to (sigh) move those rocks that the contractor rather nicely piled up. If it were one foot more in from the road I'd leave it and call it my stone wall lol, but it needs to come in a bit. I'd like to move them BEFORE I plant but depending on how good my husband and SIL are about actually providing the help they keep promising lol, I may have to plant first.

Also, I'm a bit concerned about plunging a shovel into the ground lol. I just know I am going to find MORE ROCKS! Especially in the part that wasn't touched by the contractor. In the top photo, mid-photo on the right, is the worst spot. Some stuff here to deal with - a small sassafras trunk, a large grapevine trunk that just won't die, more rocks. You can see a few little stumps in the foreground that I'm not even thinking about yet. They're not in the planting path (yet) so they can wait lol. And I spotted a bit of poison ivy here two weeks ago. I sprayed the dickens out of it but after my poison ivy episode this spring I am terrified of it.

I've decided to do a row of one Arrow Point holly, one Leprechaun arborvitae, one viburnum Brandywine, a second Leprechaun and then a second Arrow Point. This will take me to a small raised berm that is already planted with smaller stuff - the berm used to butt up against the little patch of "stuff" the electric company cut down, and has smaller shrubs to give a bit of privacy while I work in my veggie garden. It's got a couple of diervilla, Sky Box hollies, callicarpas, and butterfly bushes.

So hopefully my next photos will have actual plants in them after all this time! Yay!

:)

Dee

Do you have a hand cart Dee? That' what we use to move rocks.

Looks good with the topsoil spread. Well, look at all the progress you've made! Decisions about planting and topsoil spread. You'll get that in before winter for sure! Good work!

Dee – sorry I am late to this discussion - I had Stephanandra incisa 'Crispa' in my last house – it covered a slope and quite a bit of ground – you might be able to work it in at your edge. It is quite rugged and good for hillside planting. A path runs through the Hydrangeas and Stephanandra.

Thanks raymond! I looked into the stephanandra but it is too tall for this slope. I can't go that high with anything because of sight lines, but thank you for the suggestion. I appreciate all input!

Well, I planted a shrub lol. I was going to try to move the rocks first but I just had to plant something. I've been doing so much work out there and feel like there's nothing to show for it, so I planted one of my Arrow Point hollies. Yay! And I only hit one small rock and a few small roots. I know it will get worse though as I move along the front!

:)

Dee

Congrats! Must feel great to have started. I've never heard of Arrow Point holly. Z6 just barely out of my area - although probably would be fine these days.

That's great Dee! You're really moving along. So 'Arrow Point' is a Japanese Holly - nice. Monrovia offers that around here. I usually try to purchase only z5 or lower, even though I am in zone 6. But that's a pretty nice looking holly and according to Monvoria, it is rabbit resistant. It looks good!

Thanks guys. I've always been a tad bit of a zone-pusher, and now with the climate changing I push it a bit more. Actually, I've seen references to my area now being a zone 7, but I stick to zone 6 for most things.

I took a chance on buying three of these hollies online from Home Depot. I don't recall exact pricing, but they were much cheaper at HD than anywhere else I could find, for bigger sizes, AND had free shipping. I think I paid $50 for each of them, so about $150 total, when three of them elsewhere would have been $180 without shipping, and they would have been much smaller (something like gallon/2 gallon containers compared to the FIVE gallon containers at HD). These were at least 2 feet tall, and in excellent shape when I got them, and most surprisingly of all, not rootbound when I went to pot them up! So I was very pleasantly surprised. And happy!

Of course the only bad thing is these were pruned into perfect beautiful little conical pyramids when I got them, and of course as they are growing they are losing their shape. I suppose this is something I may have to p-, p-, prune! Oh horrors! But that's next year's worry lol.

:)

Dee

pm, that's funny about zone. I try to buy Zone 4 even tho I am in Zone 5 just for extra insurance. I remember once trying a Ilex Dragon Lady. It was marked Z5 sometimes and Z6 sometimes which was definitely risky. I really wanted it so I got it anyhow. It was fine for several years until that one winter that did it in! And to lose it after some years of growth hurts extra.

I cant add anything of any consequence @diggerdee zone 6 CT but I am enjoying your thread very much as I am learning lots.

Dee, I have also done surprisingly well with HD online purchases. Interesting source.

Wendy I am not a zone pusher at all...lol. But once in awhile, I get tired of restrictions and I rebel..lol. And I guess I go into it with the idea that as many years as I get out of it, is worth it. BUT ... only with perennials. Losing a shrub that you grow to depend on in your plan after a few year's of growth, yes, I can see that for sure. Oh...I did try a camellia once that was supposed to be hardy to z6 and forget that. Didn't even last the first winter.

I do like Japanese Hollies - the Sky Pencil I have is also one.

I've haven't bought a HD plant in a long time. But I used to. Sounds like you got a good deal, Dee. And delivered! I like that. OH...I bought a tool for a gift yesterday morning from HD because it said I could get delivery the same day. Mid morning I ordred by mid afternoon it was here. I thought only Amazon delivered that fast.

Good to see you Rouge!

so of course just the mere mention of plant buying.... I started browsing plants at HD online... saw a Russian Sage 'Denim n Lace' that I must have. Unfortunately it is quite a pricey plant even there. $33. not sure what size. Not a bargain. And bad reviews re shipping. But it is now on my list. I have a few places where it will shine. I have a neighbor who has something similar or the same thing. I have always loved it when I see it. Maybe I'll see if garden centers have anything on sale. Too hot to do garden cleanup today.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/PROVEN-WINNERS-3-Gal-Denim-N-Lace-Perovskia-Live-Perennial-Plant-1-Pack-PRSGE3DNL1PK/325718239

Wendy you are absolutely right about losing something you've had for a few years and have come to rely on in the border. It's awful. Like you said, it's good until it isn't lol. So I do try to restrict my zone-pushing to smaller things (dwarf evergreens), perennials, etc. I am definitely noting that we have warmed up though, so I'm slightly more adventurous - as long as I keep in the back of my mind that while we may be warmer, we don't have as much snow for protection, and when we DO get a storm, it's usually worse than normal, whether it's rain or snow - there are more extremes, and it's the extremes that will do in a plant, imo.

I do push sun requirements though. Not always very successfully though lol. I have a lot of shade (although I have lost a lot over the years) and like PM2, I get tired of the restrictions and try something that might need more sun. Often I don't get as much bloom but I'll take what I can get lol.

Actually one thing that is making it much easier for me to transition my garden to mostly shrubs is that my sunniest area is right along my boundary with my neighbor, who is to the south-ish of me. I've noticed over the years that all my perennial blooms face HER yard lol. When I stroll through my garden the majority of them are facing the other way, and I get to see the backs of them. Lol that's one reason I'm enjoying my little bed of Big Blue salvia and Dalmation Peach foxgloves - they're spikey so they don't turn toward the sun as much lol.

Re Home Depot: I have bought from them ONLINE twice and have been very happy, although I am always afraid lol. I almost feel like I've just been lucky! I have bought from them in person, mostly for my daughter's garden as that was where she wanted to go, and have had decent results, though mostly in spring. I bought a gorgeous, healthy-looking Chesapeake holly there for my daughter in August, and have never in my life seen such a root-bound plant. I am still trying to figure out how it was so beautiful with those roots. Sadly it died on me and I replaced it with a tiny mail-order holly - some other cultivar since it's impossible to find Chesapeake anywhere.

Wendy of course it's your decision, but I don't think $33 for a three gallon plant is too much. I do most of my gardening through mail-order, and most little 4-inch square pots are between $15 and $20, so $33 to me for a three gallon isn't excessive. AND.. they have free shipping!

I love Russian sage but am on my third try with it. A friend of mine had one that towered over my head and she let me cut from it for bouquets. Seems most of them in commerce now are shorter cultivars. Which doesn't matter for me because they die anyway lol.

Okay, back outside. I came in to get a break - so hot out there today! And I'm a vampire gardener so working in the sun is killing me lol. But those plants are going to plant themselves!

Thanks, everyone!

:)

Dee

P.S. PM2, once I was cleaning out a closet, and decided I needed some shelving or storage or something like that. I took a break, did a bit of online browsing, and ordered some stuff from Walmart. It was on my doorstep two hours later! I was shocked. I think places that have brick-and-mortar stores will deliver from the local store if your item is available. It was a pleasant surprise!

Dee you just gave me a fabulous idea!!! I had to order a new Roku Streaming stick last night. Mine is older and a software update messed it up and I had to do a factory reset. UGH. It is still glitchy. Amazon will deliver free Friday. (I am not a Prime subscriber). I just went to walmart.com and I can get the same thing TODAY. WOO-HOO!!

I haven't bought perennials in a while so could be sticker shock. I didn't see 3 gallon. That is good size. Will reconsider.

Wendy it's a great service, isn't it? Especially if you need something really quickly. FYI, when I opened your link to the HD page for the Russian sage, it said at the top of the item "3 Gal". Lol, actually, I just went to double-check to make sure I wasn't seeing things, and if you look it says "3-Gal" right in the link! :)

So I planted one of my Leprechaun arborvitaes yesterday and I'm already rethinking. These arborvitaes looked pretty good, or so I thought, even when they were next to the potted hollies. But now that I have it in the ground it looks a bit like Charlie Brown's christmas tree lol.

Hopefully it will fill in - and quickly!

:)

Dee

Dee, the font was too big - LOL!

Leprechaun will look better once he has some more buddies sharing the space. It will be a nice contrast in foliage.

Yes, Wendy, I'm hoping he looks better lol! I do like the foliage contrast too, especially since most of the stuff I looked at for this area is the same pyramidal shape. I looked a a few narrower, straighter things but couldn't find them for sale, and the rounder shrubs were all too wide for my preference. Because I have to put these rather far into the yard, I'm trying to stay narrower so I can have some room to plant inside the border.

:)

Dee

So I have finally planted out this corner. Ended up with this along the street:

Arrow Point holly, Leprechaun arborvitae, viburnum Brandywine, Leprechaun arborvitae, Arrow Point holly.

I also started planting along the boundary with my neighbor, along her row of euonymus shrubs. I planted (replanted) the ilex Berry Heavy that I had originally planted in the understory of the trees the electric company took down, and then I planted a pieris Mountain Fire, which was kind of an impulse buy. And lastly for this season's planting, I put in a chamaecyparis Soft Serve Gold which has been living in a pot for a season. Not sure any of these will work here, but this is an easier spot for me to work with than along the street - I want to get that street side done and over with. Don't mind changing things up inside the yard.

Some photos - which STILL don't look much better than my original messy spot lol, but in person you can see some difference.

Once again my little viburnum isn't showing up. Also, the Soft Serve Gold isn't planted yet, don't think, in this photo, but it is where that hole is on the far left under the euonymus shrubs, and that tiny green splotch further to the right is the pieris, and then the holly.

Since these photos were taken I have gotten more cardboard and finished filling in the area with wood chips, just to keep down weeds etc.

In the spring I hope to start working on planting inside this border, most likely some shorter shrubs in keeping with my attempt to go more low-maintenance.

Thank you to EVERYONE for your input, suggestions, and encouragement. I'm looking forward (though maybe some of you are NOT lol) to spring when I can update you all on this area!

:)

Dee

Looks nice! Is that burning bush off to the side? Gorgeous color. Is that the property line? WIll those shrubs stay put?

That IS burning bush and it IS beautiful but I hate those with a passion. I am concerned now that the trees are gone that the euonymus will really take off with all the new sun, but I have plans lol. I am going to keep them trimmed back pretty hard.

They are my neighbor's but I don't think she will care. She may not even know they are hers lol. We have a long short hedge of spirea along the property line that was the pride and joy of my previous neighbor. My new neighbor does absolutely nothing to it and it's kind of a mess now. Including wild raspberry/blackberry vines, grapevine, poison ivy, goldenrod, crabapple(??) trees, rose of sharon trees (have no idea where they are coming from lol!) other kinds of trees, all growing through and in it. I'm always cutting things out of there and when I asked her if she minded if I came into her yard to clean it up she was all for it! Told me to do whatever I wanted lol. So I hope to keep the euonymus in check - including continuing to rip up the millions of little seedlings around them!

:)

Dee

Congrats! It's really starting to come together. So much of gardening is the prep work and all the dreaming, it's almost a shock when you look back and things are planted and then another shock when they start growing and become something more than little sticks and tufts with plant tags towering over them!

This cold weather is motivating me to just stuff things in the ground. Rocks here as well but not as bad as yours, so I like to go with the little pots to keep from having to dig into the rock zone. Plus when little things "disappear" there's less guilt lol

Keep up the good work!

Looking good Dee! Your neighbor with the overgrown row of spirea sounds a lot like my neighbor. [g]

Remind me....what Viburnum you planted?

So much of gardening is the prep work and all the dreaming

@katob Z6ish, NE Pa, this (and the act of planting) is what I find most satisfying.

"...This cold weather is motivating me to just stuff things in the ground. Rocks here as well but not as bad as yours, so I like to go with the little pots to keep from having to dig into the rock zone. Plus when little things "disappear" there's less guilt lol..."

kato, a big fat YES!! to this whole paragraph lol! Honestly that's one reason why I don't mind the little pots from mail order. You can squeeze them in better and then for the most part the plants do well on their own, despite rocks etc. You just have to be patient and I'm a pretty patient person.

PM2, the viburnum is Brandywine. I planted one for a customer a few years back and really liked it, and (supposedly) it won't overgrow it's spot. We'll see on that point lol.

So glad I got this part done this fall. Now over winter I get to do rouge's favorite thing - think about what the next additions to this area will be!

:)

Dee