Charles de Mills is one of the classic Napoleonic rose - it has dreams of taking over the world. So how many square yards are you willing to devote to it?

I've never grown Tuscany Superb, but don't think it's that big. Very, very few gallicas are over about 4 ft tall.

I planted these two in my heavy acidic clay soil 2 years ago. They are both gorgeous but so far Tuscany superb is the healthiest (I do not spray in heavy black spot area). Charles’s the Mills is supposed to spread and make large clumps but so far neither of them have grown over 1 foot and 1/2 tall. So if they will turn into “large” plants it will take several years. Some of my Kordes grew 7 feet tall just last season.

If you are open to other black spot resistant varieties that make fast large bushes, but aren’t gallicas let me know and I’ll be happy to share which ones I have that can do that.

I have Tuscany Superb growing in my kitchen over winter. It’s just 12 inches, a baby. I have not had Charles de Mills. Both are Gallicas, once bloomers. . They both could be 5ft.

After reading….. Charles de Mills is almost thornless, a lovely cupped shape and medium to very fragrant. Beautiful!

Tuscany Superb has tiny thorns, nearly thornless, which I don’t notice that much for now. Exceptional fragrance. May be a tad darker bloom? Has a more natural bloom. 5” blooms. I like how it blooms in clusters.

I was told Tuscany can sucker & soread. I olan to put her in a bigger pot & keep her potted. I think Charles dM can grow big, too.

Both amazing roses! What’s your orefetence of rose shape bloom?

Charles de Mills, Internet photos

Charles de Mill’s bloom kinda looks like

my Yolanda de Aragon, but Yolanda is pink & repeat blooms-blooms in clusters, too! Yolanda is a ”Star!” The best! Deeo cupped blooms-big & huge clusters of blooms!

Tuscany Superb, internet photos

After my Tuscany blooms her seco d year, then I’d like to try Chatles decMills-see which bloom & fragrance I like most.

For now I am loving my Tuscany Superb! Love the Italian name , too! Love the superb fragrance. (Loving my little baby w/ few leaves in a pot under grow lights. She goes outside cone spring!)

My Yolanda de Aragon, 5” blooms

Patrick, it's wise you chose not to spray, I wish more people would organic garden. I remember voraciously reading Olga's posts, it must have been fantastic to meet her and see her garden. Charles de Mills has an incomparable gorgeous bloom , but it's flowering is so brief- only a few short weeks a year, it's a heart breaker. Mine stayed small and didn't sucker at all during the two years I had it planted in deep shade.

It's hard for me to limit myself to no more once bloomers, some are so exceptional.

I don't think you will ever regret getting Tuscany Superb, at least I haven't. It's the real deal.

. It doesn't spread that much.

Another one to look at is Hippolyte.

Here is Tuscany Superb at the Brooklyn Botanic garden on May 30 2017. This plant gets more sun and is more vigorous than mine is. Loaded with buds & just coming into bloom , it is (or will be) more floriferous than my bush. Supposedly this variety can grow 4' tall, but I have never seen it more than 2 1/2 or 3 feet.

If this is to be a specimen plant in a prime spot that only blooms for a few weeks, then whichever of the two forms the most beautifully shaped shrub with attractive, very healthy foliage when not in bloom would sway it for me.

Have you considered Cardinal Hume? Nor a Gallica but a large, vigorous, repeat flowering and fragrant shrub, by all accounts. After reading how much Kim sings it’s praises I wish I had picked it instead of Thomas à Becket for a large arching shrub, I am finding the latter too glaringly bright red.

I can’t say anything about the Gallicas you mentioned because I haven’t grown them. But I can second Nollie’s praise of Cardinal Hume. My only complaint about this one is that I haven’t found a spot where I can let it grow like it wants. But it is beautiful! And its fragrance is unique.

First, I want to thank everyone who posted, especially with the beautiful images. It really means a lot.

I am open to other suggestions, but keep in mind where I garden. I live in the lower Mid-Atlantic in the epicenter for black spot that runs from Virginia up to New York. Humidity is high year round. Our summers are not hot enough, and winters not cold enough, to retard the fungus. All five strains are present, which WILL KILL most repeat blooming modern roses that are not consistently sprayed (1/week during the growing season) with a chemical fungicide.

There are only three repeat blooming roses that I KNOW can be grown completely no spray if your hope is for clean foliage: DARLOW'S ENIGMA (white), DOUBLE KNOCKOUT (bright red), and KNOCK OUT (light red). The first and third are hideously thorny. DE is wonderfully fragrant and KO has a light, but consistent fragrance. DK at best, under ideal conditions, has a very slight "clean" scent. For a red rose, that is abysmal. Despite the lack of fragrance, I grow two DKs in the back kitchen garden because it makes an outstanding garden shrub. BTW: Coral Knockout (formally Carefree Celebration) IS NOT resistant in my area. Expect total defoliation by mid-August. Same can be said for JULIA CHILD (golden yellow), STAR OF THE REPUBLIC (apricot; gorgeous, deliciously scented, thornless Goddess!), and THE PILGRIM (pure yellow), but I grow them anyway because I am a sucker for warm colored roses growing next to herbs.

When growing roses in my area there are two options. The ugly option is to choose roses that are so vigorous the fungus can't kill it. Think The Pilgrim. The other, and the one I am increasingly leaning towards is to plant the few cultivars that are TRULY resistant to the fungus. Simply put, I am too old and ill to deal with the intensive maintenance demands of the Bourbons, English Roses, Hybrid Perpetuals, Hybrid Teas, etc.

Now, the L-shaped rose bed in question is in the front yard in a garden I call "Twilight's Bower". These roses are all in cool shades of pink, mauve, white, and crimson. These are fronted, backed, and inter-planted with annuals, bulbs and perennials (Russian Sage, 'Select Blue' catmint, 'Hidcote Blue' lavender, pansies, foxgloves, blue bachelor buttons, Roogchi clematis, 'Casa Blanca' lilies, etc.).

I have had some success with a few Buck and Kordes roses using infrequently applied organic sprays like the Cornell Formula. Namely, EARTH ANGEL (white), POSEIDON (lavender), QUIETNESS (pink), CAREFREE BEAUTY (pink). Duchesse de Brabant (pink), Gypsy Sue (apricot), Plum Perfect (mauve), and Majorie Fair (red) are all under evaluation but are still too young to pass judgement (although I will say things are not looking good for two second year Plum Perfects because of the black spot and lack of fragrance).

Given my garden limitations, I am no longer picky about flower form. I still have nightmares about being mauled by New Dawn, Sombreuil, and Gertrude Jekyl (all long gone), so I avoid hyper thorny roses. I actually don't mind a few thorns, just trying to avoid the killer roses like the Hybrid Rugosas.

Lastly, is nostalgia. I have fond memories growing up with a "wild" DR. HUEY on my parents property. Mom passed away a little over a year ago, and I find myself yearning for the velvety dark purple-red semi-double once blooming rose with the spicy scented foliage and flowers. This got me thinking about Olga and her wonderful Gallicas. Between CHARLES DE MILLS and TUSCANY SUPERB, I am leaning towards the latter because of the crushed velvet petals surrounding that boss of yellow stamens. But if there is something better that can anchor that bed...

Not to lower the spirits on Cardinal Hume’s recommendations but it is susceptible to blackspot so probably not a great option for the OP‘s humid no spray garden.

If you don't grow it, you need Ispahan. Madam Plantier is another really good one. If the size is important, I'll reiterate recommending Hyppolyte over Tuscany Superb.

I'm leaning towards that BBG Tuscany Superb really being Tuscany. When I've seen Tuscany Superb, it is double enough that the stamens don't show.

My Tuscany. It's maybe 8 inches tall, but runs all over the place. A grafted one is likely to be a lot more contained and more upright.

I would much rather have had Tuscany, if I could have found anyone who sold it.

Patrick Tuscany Superb is gorgeous with great scent. The only concern I have is it may not live to your expectations in size. I expect it will take longer than usual “at least 5 years to reach 3 to 4 feet tall if it does”. I don’t know how old the ones you admired in Olga’s garden were.

I garden in zone 7b which acts as a zone 7a in upper tip of northwest Alabama. I expect our humidity may be similar to what you experience, but I do not know how many strains of blackspot we have. Flamenco Rosita is a stellar variety that grows very large quickly with magenta blooms that age to purplish. It has EXCEPTIONAL disease resistance here, better than the knockouts. Its main flaw is its very mild scent which doesn’t waft.

Single cane of blooms. Not tornless but not terrible

Showing a proliferation

Full plant in the back. Olivia Austin in the front woth some blackspot

slighly ot: how were you able to get data on what strains of blackspot are present in your area? I would love to learn more about this subject and dont have a good source. Thank you in advance.

Monarda, if you still want Tuscany, let me know.

Monarda, Patrick,

Tuscany Superb is sold at Heirloom Roses, I have one potted from last summer. She's a newbie. I am excited about her fragrance. She is a vigorous strong hardy rose. In a pit she will stay 3-4ft for me,; however, at her rate if griwth zi wouod have 5ft by nd year easily-given my soil amendments & Plant Tone/Rose Tone fertilzers. I would not worry to get her to grow big! Also, fish fertilizer will turn it into a giant.

Thank you for your kind offer, Mad_gallica. I really don't have room for Tuscany -- but I am planning to do some serious editing of my little garden and am sorely tempted. Can I have a raincheck? I will also try fertilizing my Tuscany.

As far as the OP, I looked more carefully and I think Patrick needs a more vigorous plant to fit the bill. Also one that can withstand the heat and humidity, which seem to be getting worse in the mid-Atlantic. Tuscany seems maybe more suitable for an herb garden. I imagine Charles de Mills would fit the bill, though I can't help thinking of Gruss an Teplitz (popular in Pakistan, so they say);,\ Gipsy Boy (very thorny they say, but hey, if you have room), and Erinnerung An Brod, which has American setigera genes ( https://hedgerowrose.com/rose-gardening/2012/07/13/growing-erinnerung-an-brod-hybrid-setigera-rose/ ). I can also vouch from personal experience that Yoland d'Aragon is big, reblooming, and not terribly fussy.

monarda_gw the color of Erinnerung was striking, I miss it very much.

@Patrick-7a-MD, I don’t grow either of these roses (although I’ve been thinking of adding Tuscany Superb and have read the comments with great interest!) but I did want to pass along another gem that, although only in it’s 2nd year, is looking like a true winner in our climate. Easy on the Eyes was remarkably clean last summer and fall and did very well despite the drought.

Both are beautiful roses, and I have grown both, but Tuscany Superb wins my heart. It is my DH's favorite rose. He is supportive of my gardening habits, but not involved himself. However, anytime he sees Tuscany Superb in bloom, it stops him in his tracks.

Deborah your clematis is gorgeous, would be willing to share which variety is it?

Dianela, the clematis is Romantika. It was always healthy and grew. Vigorously

Oops. I hate houzz. Anyway I was saying that Romantika grew well in KY, but suffers from mildew in Minnesota.

Here, my Romantika is healthy.

Thank you Deborah and Sheila. My climate is very similar to KY so Ill have to try Romantika.