Bill, radiational cooling does not occur in the air, it occurs on the ground (which in turn cools the air just above it). So surfaces can be below freezing (frost on roofs, etc) while the air is still above freezing, tho the longer the night the closer the lower air temp will get to the ground, especially, like me, in a frost hollow.

I remember a post by davidrt28 that talked about different kinds of frost. I'll have to find that one and read it again. Again, this should be it for frosts for the season. I think the latest killing frost we ever had here was during the first week of June and that was many, many years ago.

Good morning – I could use some help identifying what appears to be an abnormality on some of my trees. I’m pretty sure these are Beech and they are located at gardens edge “in the woods” on my property. I usually don’t pay any attention to these trees – I did not plant them – but I noticed that the leaves looked a bit ‘odd’. I am posting here because I wasn’t sure where to post up. Thanks.

You need to start a new thread, raymond.

Thanks David - will do.

Nearly 10" rain for May. It has not been torrential, so not as much runoff and erosion as it could have been. Much more than that along the source parts of the north branch Potomac River southwest of me like Westernport MD and Keyser WV.

Been on the cool side here with around 70 for highs and 50 at night. Only a few sprinkles of rain but mostly cloudy the last few days.

That 3-day rain we got has been it, at 2.65". Compared to last year it has been great. With the subsoil having some moisture finally, everything is looking good and the things I do water, it doesn't take as much, and the response is better than when it was so dry the last few years.

The Nordmanniana, if it lives, will be another miraculous return from the edge of death, for me anyways.

Earlier above, I mentioned above how I watered it, and it stood back up, well, the next evening it looked wilted again so thinking it was just a lack of roots problem, I watered again, and it seemed to help, as the next day it looked ok but maybe not quite as good as the day before.

The third time, the next evening, I really soaked it down, to make sure the water was draining through my coarse porous soil and drawing in air along with it. And being it was a week since planting, I thought the roots by now were at least beginning to operate, moving water to the plant.

The next morning, the plant did not appear healthy and the lower growth and all the growth along the trunk was still wilted. Then it dawned on me, could this be root rot.

Of course, when I researched it, it told me yes A. Nordman was highly susceptible to that pathogen. Kind of odd being its native range is known for 40" annual rainfall (probably winter rain).

Yes, then panic began to set in.

But all I could do is stop any further watering and hope that it would dry out soon enough to overcome the problem.

That was day before yesterday and now this morning, the plant looked pretty good again. Still not sure if it's out of the woods but a big Whew! anyways. 8^)

So, the strategy from now on is, after being in the ground 9 days, wait until the tree begins to wilt again, on its own, before it sees anymore water from me.

They are forecasting TS by next Tuesday and beyond but sunny and warm before then.

;-)

Bill, the Nordmann fir at my house growing up. We always loved it because we could stand underneath the canopy for protection waiting for the school bus. When there was an ice or wet snowstorm, the branches would bend down and the ice/snow would fuse them solidly together and prevent any more bending of the branches. There would only ever be a collection of cones at the very top, way out of reach. Unfortunately took a direct lightning strike and was killed. Here it had just recently been struck and beginning to show the fatal effects at the leaning top,

Here it comes down. :(

Notice the northern catalpa just to its right that I planted in the mid-70s.

PS Bill, the type of soil pathogens in Europe are prb'ly different enough from those in America that some trees might be somewhat resistant in their native area, but not so much in a "foreign" area.

I think a lot of soil pathogens were probably brought over from Europe, and to lesser degree the other way, before plant quarantine laws got much more strict after WWII. Reading historical documents, it looks like, for example, the Arnold and Hunnewell Arboreta in Massachusetts both ordered hundreds of rhododendrons and other plants from UK nurseries, from 1880 to the 1940s, and I highly doubt they were bare-rooted.

Fortunately this is no longer the case, and I hope the UK's devastating strain of P. ramorum stays there. The one that killed all the Japanese and hybrid larches. If I visited gardens in Cornwall this spring as I had been thinking of doing, I was planning on wearing an old pair of sneakers for the garden tours, or any other woodland walking in the UK, and tossing them out before I flew back!

As for rainfall, it's interesting to use this slider to compare old and current drought monitors

https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/Maps/ComparisonSlider.aspx

My part of NE MD is still bedeviled, but not as bad. (and today's over 1 inch should help)

Most of the eastern and southern US is doing better, but drought is expanding and worsening in the high plains and Rockies. I sure hope SW Texas somehow gets relief from the brewing hurricane Alvin. I want to go botanizing around Big Bend National Park again, but I'm afraid it's going to look devastated by drought, compared to 2011. I have one plant that I collected seed of during that visit, a Nolina erumpens.

Kind of odd being its native range is known for 40" annual rainfall (probably winter rain).

Yep that's the problem; although parts of Turkey and SE Europe can have some summer rain, there's no atmospheric mechanism to bring them A LOT of summer rain. It makes sense firma is the most root rot resistant, because it comes from a place with copious and potentially ridiculous summer rainfall (if Japan gets hit w/a typhoon) and from very low elevations, so it doesn't need chilly mountain nights. That being said there are old Nordmanns around DC, especially north and west of the city, like Ben's childhood bus stop! (and as for the WMSR, it's definitely on my long term bucket list!)

BTW - speaking of rain - now over 2 inches here. This is the best "slow rainfall" I've had in over a year! A huge relief as I've been planting like crazy in the past couple months. The most I've ever planted in spring.

update on May 31st: drought is looking pretty well staunched in the south, southern midwest, and east...elsewhere, not so much.

it rained almost 2” the past two days here. That would be almost 20% of our annual precipitation. It’s been amazing. Slow rain, too. That almost never happens

David, there's some large, labeled(!) firs, including Nordmann and balsam, in the Sharpsburg, MD Civil War cemetery (near Antietam Battlefield park). Also some impressive Norway spruces and other trees too.

Yesterday was a week since our 3 day rain. I noticed it didn't get as dry after a week like is did the last couple of years but then it really hasn't been all that warm either with cool nights.

The A. Normanniana still looks good with some of those side branches trying to expand (?).

I have 7 new plantings plus 4 that were new last season and one transplant. Those need to stay at least 'moist', same for the Korean maples and the Tsuga c's, so I was out with the hose and watering can getting that done and boy, they really respond to that.

Some unexpected showers came later that day, amounting to a tenth of an inch, filling my rain barrel again (it wasn't empty). ;-)

The next 5 days are going into the high 70's to near 90 with windy conditions. Those are the times we could use an inch of rain a week.

Bill, long-range GFS forecast shows a big low-pressure over your area in a week or so. But as the Yogi Berra saying goes, it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future.

Oh, winter damage, I had the free 'bunny pruning' last winter, on the rosa blanda.

I did not try to protect it. Pretty thorny 4 ft. bushes, but bunnies don't care (12-31-2024).

They're coming back stronger than ever (5-29-25).

' it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future '

You can say that again, beng!

We're 'always a week away from a drought' is the saying up in this country.

Just got to keep looking ahead and hoping it's going to be better this next time around. So far it has. A couple of TS at the right time can put us 'over the top' for this season.

Show 'n tell:

I noticed that the Cystopteris Fragilis is expanding all by itself. The inch or two overhang of the shed causes even a light rain shower or heavy dew to drip on the rocks along the bottom of the shed, creating conditions favorable to this type of fern. At least until the dry summer arrives.

The Aesculus glabra that I sprouted from seed last season and only grew a few inches, has added almost a foot and a half to its height so far this season.

The 2 new mugo pines settled right in (the one in the back is a little smaller in size).

The Thuja plicata has put on a few inches already this season. It likes those deep soaking rains.

The weeping white spruce seems to like it in this location.

The Picea densata that replaced the one that did nota, has vigor that surprised me coming in a gallon and a half pot (iirc).

The Cornus sericea likes the shade from the new house next door. It will get white berries if it doesn't get really dry. Less deer and rabbits too with more people on that side (I haven't caged this one this season).

The red charm peony is loaded with bulbous flower buds.

Not sure about the Nootka cypress, it hasn't done much yet in this cool weather. It seems to me it did most of its growing during the last half of the season, its first season last year.

The H. macrophylla (transplanted not long ago) is showing new life.

There'll be dozens of irises shortly.

The cotoneaster lucidus flowers are beginning to open.

The Abies Nordmanniana is still in the hospital but is out of ICU for now and is showing signs of improvement. ;-)

:-)

And while I'm at it: ;-)

Picea Abies that got sun burnt fall before last is improving and looking healthy (a little sparse on the NE bottom side).

Tsuga canadensis #2 from out east, sporting a new layer of mulch (I'm going all brown by end of season). The sun was a little bright at picture time, the tree is much deeper green than it appears).

Bicolor oak:

I've learned that a pail or two, with an inch of my not-so-secret deer repellant inside, has reduced the bud and branch tip nibbling to zero. Soon to be removed for the season. I didn't have one bud lost on all my trees since bud break. That includes, the Korean maples, pine candles, oak buds and any other tree where one or two pails were present near the trees.

Note: I have 14 pails, enough so it creates a 'deerless area' as the are distributed around in my yard. Really.

Same for the Ilex verticillata. Not that the deer won't be back this summer and I might leave the pails around for the summer but not in plain view The rabbits don't seem to like the Ilex, at least at this time of year. I guess there's just too much better things to eat at this time of year.

The pinus mugo, I replaced the Cornus alternifolia with, is doing well but I'm not yet sure what the cultivar is. I don't think it's pumilio. It had red candles on it early.

Earlier candle color on the above pine.

That's all for now.

A lot of more boring stuff like lilacs but nbd. ;-)

Thanks, alot of nice fresh greenery there -- pleasing light blue-green on the white spruces (100x better color than blue spruces). Your Cornus sericea might not be the same species (mine have red stems too) that colonizes areas of my streamside, because mine don't bloom for another couple weeks & I should be ahead of you.

That is one factor about coarse, sandy soil, it always warms up so fast in the spring, faster than the heavy clay soils, resulting is fast early growth.

The problem, as we all know, is it doesn't retain moisture.

I've watered the Red Osier twice already; on top of the heavy rains, we had in between.

The Cornus sericea grows wild here so not sure of what or if there are any differences. I dug it from the wild woods several years back, discarded it but kept a cutting, that is now what you see in the picture.

And we did have low 90's for a couple of weeks, end of April and into May so we are a little ahead with progress compared to most seasons.

It's a wonder we didn't lose anything to the late freezes in May.

I spread the Red Osiers along the stream banks to help hold the banks by cutting off mid-sized stems in late winter and just pushing them into the soil. About 1 out of 4 survive (depends alot on rain), but as a result much of the banks have them growing if they get enough sun. Also have a couple gray dogwoods thru the mail order that have survived and growing on the banks.

After the initial planting of the Cornus s. in my yard, things changed, and I removed the plant but kept a cutting and stuck it in a pot of regular earth.

Here it is in May of 2018 (note the green stems in summer).

I planted it in a shady area by the lilacs, soon after the above picture was taken and by July 2018, it had grown quite a bit,

I moved it to its current location, either fall of 2020 or early spring 2021.

Here it is in May of 2021 (my picture database ;-). It's getting big enough now I don't surround it and the bunnies eating a few suckers around the base don't seem to cause much damage. ;-)

May precip. Pink is 10-15 inches. Here, it tied 2nd w/June 2018 for highest monthly total -- 11.02".

If interested, here's the site where this pic comes from, you can change the location and report period on the side menu.

https://water.noaa.gov/?analysis_date=1483488000&lat=36.0380255427&location_name=CONUS_+_Puerto_Rico&location_type=us&lon=-85.1874988132&precip_layer=0.4&product=departure&recent_type=today&rfc_layer=-1&state_layer=-1&hsa_layer=-1&county_layer=-1&time_frame=last180days&time_type=recent&units=eng&zoom=5&domain=current#@=-96.401081,38.1465724,3.4809394&b=topographic&g=obsFcst,0!0000000000000000000,0.5,1!1!1!1!0,0,0,true&ab=0,0,#D94B4A,1,1,1,#cccccc,1,0,0,#B243B1,1,0,0,#98E09A,1,false&a=hydrologic,0.35,false&s=0,0,0.9,0.9,false&n=false,#72afe9,0.9,0,0.9,0,0.9,false&p=true,0.75,0,22,-2,1,-2,-2,-2,0,true&d=0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,#006EFF,1,#006EFF,1,#006EFF,1,#006EFF,1,#006EFF,false&q=

Interesting.

If we got as much rain as what you show for out east, we'd be terribly flooded.

Not so much where I'm living in town (I'm probably the highest location in town), but all the low-lying areas, where the roads are only a couple/few feet above the water level would become impassible.

We need regular rains, just not that much. ;-)

Bill, the flooding in Westernport and LaVale MD was historic in their town limits and required a number of rescues. RR tracks were washed out completely in some areas, but fortunately not the WM Scenic RR tracks which are well above flood areas. The C&O towpath along the Potomac R was washed out at alot of spots.

Sorry, tho my bookmark in my bookmark menu works fine for me, the copied bookmark on my reply above for some reason seems not to show it the same (cookie issue?). Still, from my copied link above you can use the menu on the right to uncheck all the flood warning junk to get down to what I show. But it took me a while to get it right.

Yeah, I guess I didn't mean as much water as they are getting.

But if we get 3-4" of rain or two, in a short (couple weeks) period of time, the rivers rise, and the swamps overflow the roads.

The old timers called them the 'June Floods'

which we haven't had in several years, but it is June.

34F here this morning -- escaped another frost. Has to be close to or an actual record low for me here in June. Mountain valleys in WV, VA, MD and PA will have a few 30s even in July and August -- Canaan Valley WV certainly had frost/freeze this morning.

Wow, I guess I won't like your last post beng. ;-)

we've been basking in the low to mid 80's with lows around low 50's.

Things are growing very good to this point.

They've been forecasting for a week now, TS and 2" of rain for today, but now that it's getting close, they have downsized us to 0.2". Fairly common for forecasts that we get around here.

I've been letting things get fairly dry before watering bc I'm not as concerned about lack of subsoil moisture after the 2.6" we got 2 weeks ago but that can and is changing as time goes on. Guess I'll drag out the hose again to pre prime the ground around some of my moisture loving plants, in case we do get a tenth or two, that all adds up and really helps to keep things chugging along.

Ben - WOWZERS, that is crazy! You've said before but remind me, what is your exact elevation?

It does appear you're in more of a valley situation, so it makes sense that on a clear, still night, cold air can descend and pool on your property. Are you sort of between ridges, or mountaintops?

For contrast, here on the other side of Maryland < 1 mile from the Bay, it stayed well above 50F!

That being said I was at an office party in western Loudoun county yesterday, at a rural property, and the air out there didn't seem especially crisp - so I'm surprised it got that low. Definitely had more of a moist, spring time feel in the air than a dry fall type day. ALSO, you've had a lot of rain, which means the moist ground would have been giving off more heat from the energy stored in that very moist soil. If you'd had a very dry May instead, it might have gone lower than 34F!

FWIW:

Speaking of air quality,

The last several days we're had reddish brown sunrises and sunsets with foggy looking sun duing the days. Yes, the NW winds have been giving us the Canadian Smoky Air from their wildfires. Air quality warnings been posted for fine particles in the air.

Yesterday, the wind switched to the south so much improved now.

David, I'm at 900', but at the base of Warrior ridge and also boxed in on other sides, so all the cold air forming at night on the slopes flows down to my spot and collects there, prb'ly only a couple hundred ft in depth. There's NEVER a warm morning at my place except if clouds or winds prevent the radiational cooling. Mornings even in late July (the avg warmest time of yr) are often in the upper 40s if the air is dry. And yes, when I went out the grass and leaves were soaking wet in dew, but the air above was quite dry.

PS The farmers down near me, I'm sure from experience, plant hay first in early spring, then harvest at the end of May/first of June, THEN plant frost-sensitive corn.

Some interesting info, there was an article that said plant photosynthesis is enhanced when there is dust/haze in the sky because the whitened sky is brighter than a dark blue sky and leaves receive light not just from the direct sun but also from all angles.

We're heading for a cool spell with some low seventies over the next several days, then a couple of mid-sixties the beginning of next week.

Lowest low will be high 40's but no frost expected. 🥶

And we'll be seeing our longest day of the year at 15:48:55 on the 21st.

Picked up a tenth and a half of rain yesterday with some gusty winds.

The A. Nordmann isn't looking good, but I think it's hit the bottom now, with some of the new growth looking shriveled. With the rain, I've refrained from further watering bc it's not that dry.

Ben - cool, thanks for the details - yeah I figured you had to be close to 1000 ft.

It's amazing how much climate variation there is in little Maryland! You know the only Trachycarpus known to have survived the incredible winter of 1994, so far north on the east coast, was in extreme Southern Maryland. IIRC I read elsewhere that it was finally cut down. https://cazort.net/photos/palm-umces-maryland

But none in the DC area predate 1994.

BTW - so fascinating about the haze. Thanks for sharing that.

Wow beng, I had no idea that anywhere outside of the rocky mountain west experienced lows like that in the summer. That’s nearly as bad as me and I’m at 7,200’

The haze is back at our 1400 ft elevation, so things should be thriving. ;-)

On my plant collecting expedition yesterday (in Brainerd), I checked out a few places I had never been to before. The last place I went, was a Tree Seller on north 371.

I wasn't 10 ft. inside the gate and noticed an area with some potted conifers (1-1/2 gal?) with a homemade sign saying they were for sale.

One of the workers came over to greet me and I asked him if any of those were Serbian spruce, and he acknowledged there were some mixed in there. Turns out, about 50% of them were the coveted Picea Omorika! So, I had my pick. Many were well advanced with new growth but one of the nicest looking was still fairly early into bud break, so I loaded it up into the vehicle. :^)

One of the workers there verified that several plant nurseries, many times grow excess number of trees/plants and then sell the extras in bulk to tree sellers and that's how they end up with these miscellaneous potted items.

I did stop at Landsberg too, but all the labels were gone off the pallets so no further information on those.

I also ran across an upright Juniper I've been thinking about. A half-gallon J. chinensis 'blue point'. It might not do well here but if the price is right, I can try one.

This has got to be the most trees I've planted in one season hands down. ;-)

Yes, gotta have a Serbian spruce. The needles are small and very dense on the stems w/silver stomatal lines.

Wow beng, I had no idea that anywhere outside of the rocky mountain west experienced lows like that in the summer. That’s nearly as bad as me and I’m at 7,200’

Lane, I don't know if there's a color ramp map-chart out there, of adiabatic lapse rates around the world, but it would be interesting if there was. From my casual study of climate, the northeastern US has a slighly high lapse rate compared to other places in the northern hemisphere. Meaning an increase in altitude causes a faster drop in temperature. Of course, it's nothing like the crazy lapse rates in the southern hemisphere. Where, for example, in New Zealand, there used to be the insane spectacle of 9b tree ferns growing within sight of glaciers.

This has got to be the most trees I've planted in one season hands down. ;-)

It's addictive isn't it? After telling myself I would radically cut down on the # of potted plants on standby, and having the biggest spree of planting ever this spring, at least 40 things counting perennials...and that ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES was I to place any more mail orders...guess what? I saw a few antipodal plants at Ian's Desert Northwest and said 'I gotta order those'.

I hear you david and I haven't stopped planting, but I should clarify, 'this year is the most things I've planted', considering the years I planted hundreds of forestry sized pine trees out in the country, but it's definitely the most diversity in the types of plants I've planted in a season. ;-)

I've already been banned from further plantings in the front yard. Even if that Korean maple doesn't make it, over next winter, it will not be replaced (maybe with some lobbying it could be). 8^))

The back yard is a little different. I've been given free rein to most of it and I'm to the age that in 10-12 years, it's not going to be my problem. ;-)

IOW: I don't mind crowded, half-grown trees but I'm not going to plant, so everything's the right spacing 20-50 years from now. And with a new owner, many of my plants will die from neglect anyways.

My goal is, once I get everything established, I'll call the local newspaper and have a reporter come out and publish a story about all the obscure varieties of trees I have growing in upper MN. :-)

If they don't survive, at least I've had the pleasure of doing my favorite hobby and most of what one gardener does means little to the next.

David, jetstream (cold air) is lower in the east US for whatever reasons -- look at Mt Washington's extreme climate in New Hampshire at a mere 6300'!

Re: Serbian spruce.

The needles are not 4 sided or rhombic as many of spruce genera are.

The internet says they're flat but using a magnifier on a cross section of a needle, it appears the top and bottom are more rounded than flat with edges where the top and bottom meet, sharply rounded also. Like a flatter oval.

;-)

I was driving to Brainerd today (otg: not for plant purchases) but I had checked the Nordmann fir planted in the yard, earlier, and it didn't look too good. Still green though.

I guess I didn't think that the tree I bought was too far along to transplant and I really didn't mess with the roots all that much except for some brief untangling that I stopped doing after I saw how knitted together the fine roots were, and none were cut. So, it was a little surprising when it wilted a couple of days later. And more so that it stood back up after watering but then went limp again for seemingly for no reason. The worst part is that it stayed limp, then some shriveling, and maybe has gotten worse. :-?

Then the thought occurred to me, if this tree fails, it most likely will be the only chance I'll have to get a reasonably price A. Nordmann like this in who knows how long.

So, as long as I was in the area, I checked out that nursery. Checked the pallets. And there was only about 12 or so A. n. left there for sale. In fact, the smaller less expanded one I saw yesterday was gone. But I did find one band that didn't have fine roots hanging out the bottom holes and too wasn't as advanced as the others that were left and bought it.

So, something I should've done in the first place. I simply put this one into a larger pot (1/2 gal?), without disturbing the roots. Just slipped the root ball out of the 3.5"x3.5"x5" deep band and filled in around the gaps with 511 bark mix. Why didn't I just do this in the first place?

One thing I've learned, education costs $. Thankfully this one was only $9.65 otd.

This should keep it healthy until next Fall or Spring when the plant is dormant and I can rip into the roots and transplant without all these unpleasant things happening.

:-)

Abies Nordmanniana #2 backup.

Yeah, I can't remember Nordmann's being commonly available even w/the mail order companies. Best to take advantage as you have.

And you can't have too many trees! Muwahahahaha.. (mad scientist laugh). ;-)

It's beginning to look like if I hadn't bought the backup Nordmann, I would only have bad news to report, although the first tree that reacted so badly to its planting isn't brown and dead yet.

A month after planting, I wondered if I didn't have too much sunshade, after all.

I had things so it was only getting the filtered sun that came in through the burlap and thought maybe it was time to give it some unfiltered sun.

So, I took off the top burlap and part of the lower burlap, so it at least got a couple hours of direct sun during the day, and an hour or so before sundown. I figured being it already was getting some sun; it should be UV acclimated. Plus, it was mostly cloudy the next day with some rain showers, so should be as good as it gets for timing, right?

The day following was mostly sunny.

I think that the bottom branches were already looking like they might be browning even before I took some of the shade away. But following the sunny day, a couple branches at the bottom were definitely brown. And the new growth that went limp a couple of weeks ago were still limp with no sign of straightening up.

The only difference I can see from earlier, is the new growth, in spots is acting like the needles are attempting to spread apart even though they're just hanging there. Could be signs of life.

I thought I'd see more improvement after a whole month, but this tree has me baffled.

Now for the good news. ;-)

The #2 replacement that I up potted, has steadily grown the last almost 2 weeks.

Here's a comparison picture, just over 12 days:

The tentative plan for now, after a lot of consideration, is to just leave original #1 tree, right where it is. If it lives, fine, if not nbd (It's way back in the SE corner of the yard).

Which brings up, the rest of the story. ;-)

(In a way, more bad news, but with a silver lining). :^)

As mentioned earlier, I'm running out of room for more plantings and the one tree I always considered for removal, got the nod immediately, when I mentioned it to DW. :-0

This tree (commonly called a 'swamp maple' in other parts of the country), has been a bit disappointing (almost embarrassing) in its performance. Even with supplemental watering and fertilizer, it just can't take those summer dry spells, without me constantly keeping the soil moist, in an ever-expanding circle to cover the root zone of this tree. So, without the consistently moist soil, required for it to flourish, it just has to go.

Acer rubrum:

I thought maybe a root problem was the reason for its stunted growth, almost 9 seasons in the ground. But the roots looked pretty good. There was a tell-tale sign of the beginnings of heart rot (the dark spot at the center of the stump).

I had to chop a few of the roots on one side to get it to tilt/go when I pulled to keep the wheels from spinning, but the area got pretty clear of roots overall and the ones that are left are a foot or so out from center so nbd.

Which brings me to the conclusion of this post and how things can work in concession to produce the proverbial 'Silver Lining'. ;-)

With the Acer rubrum gone (I have a better of the same in the front yard). I now have a semi protected, large open area for the #2 Nordmann transplant! Where I can see it from the house!

And this Fir is somewhat drought tolerant and can bear dry spells once established. :-)

What can I say? Except I'll need to wait until late summer before planting.

And as an aside, I was considering this spot for the Serbian spruce (far right in picture). It's a little close to my Tsuga c. right now but the form of the P. omorika is supposed to be on the narrow side, so it should be fine there for at least the next 20 years or so. :-)

///

Thanks for the update. To be honest, red maples are not my favorite tree -- to me they are rather plain. Living in the woods in VA, they were they most damaged tree in ice storms (foresters consider them weed trees invading valuable oak/hickory forests).

100% agree w/Ben. My yard used to have a bunch of red and silver maples, never mind me wanting to get rid of them, they would have gotten rid of themselves eventually! So many branches down in hurricanes or thunderstorms, or worse, split trunks. Just terrible trees for this area at least.

If it would've grown well here, I'd have kept it.

But it's fine and I'm glad it's gone.

We had a big one in the back yard, down in the twin cities, during the time I was growing up.

Big tree that had branches that extended out past the boundaries of the back yard and way taller than the 2-story house we lived in. 12ft. of clear trunk that was near 3 ft in diameter.

A straight-line wind took all the branches off, leaving the trunk. But that wind also took down huge, mature American elms and laid them flat on the ground, so it was a real doozy.

Different climate and soil down there.

But anyways, what's done is done and I'm feeling good about it.

And then the nursery/commercial businesses plant them or the hybrid maples in parking lots, which then suffer badly in summer heat spells (like the summer of 2024).

“And then the nursery/commercial businesses plant them or the hybrid maples in parking lots”

You forgot the mulch volcanos, beng.

Watered the other night and got a tenth inch of rain last night.

And just like that, the rest of the lower branches went brown, fast.

Oh well. Glad I'll get another try. ;-)

Bill, I'm trying to remember this thread, that is becoming a bit of a mess isn't it? Was this fir the one you planted out this spring, or one that was damaged by winter? I'm a little stumped as to why you'd have trouble establishing a healthy, spring planted Nordmann up there. Did you unfurl the root system, or just put the root mass in the ground in the exact same state as when it was removed from the plastic pot? EDIT: I see now you say you have sandy soil...so, that's even more mysterious. This looks like root rot secondary to overwatering, but I could be wrong. But, whom am I to "judge". I will be biting my nails for the next few weeks about many rarities I planted out this spring, as we weather the current heat wave/steambath. If local Wunderground stations are to be believed, I might have had my highest feels-like temperature ever today. The surprise rain we had yesterday has helped push the dewpoint to almost 80F! I planted one Larix principis-rupprechtii last fall, and one this spring. The spring planted one is in very light shade, so that will hopefully prevent it from overheating. Fingers crossed. In a way I'm glad they are getting this challenge now, instead of having a string of relative mild summers. I'll be weeding out the weaklings, that's for sure.

BTW - here is my thread on freeze types you alluded to somewhere up thread.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/6410966/gardening-concepts-explored-and-discussed-overstory-protection

Hi david!

Yeah, my fault. I inserted the Nordmann fir into this thread when I should've started a new one.

And this tree has me puzzled also. I bought it for cheap, in a pot band of 3-1/2" sq. 5" deep. There were several inches of fine roots hanging out through the holes in the bottom of the pot when I bought it and was terribly root bound.

I didn't think it was too far along to plant, and I should've just planted it in the ground without messing with the roots at all. I didn't do a lot once I discovered how knitted together the fine roots were and just dug a hole and put it in and watered it down.

I don't remember all the details but once planted, it looked pretty good and after a several days, it started looking limp. Considering not much roots under it, and days since planting, I watered it. Next day, it was all perked up again, success, right?

To my surprise, the next day it was all drooping again.

I knew enough not to overwater, so waited several days, then rain came the day after I watered. then I notice some of the new growth stood up again. Left it again for a while. Then every part of it drooped and stayed that way.

I wonder if the limited root mass didn't allow it to draw enough water to keep it healthy and that allowed root rot to enter.

Probably didn't help to mess with new growth showing but we too had so many 90's early in May, otherwise the tree wouldn't have been that advanced-on May 15th when I bought it.

My fault there.

And this tree might be prone to transplant shock and root rot, idk, but in my coarse sandy soil, it has never (only once) been a problem. The only thing I've been doing different is using composted manure (not black cow) in and around the planting area before mulch is added. And not a lot of that.

eta: we did have a week or two of cool weather end of May so that didn't help imo.